Crime and Corruption.

by **fdimike** » December 12, 2011, 11:33 am

Truebrit

"There is no extra effort involved on the cops part . They simply hand the uncollected (Read unpaid for) driving licenses into the station office with the offence ticket involved and you have to go personally to the station to pay, plus a premium, before you get your license back. They still get their commission on the collection . For a more serious offence such as drink driving they will impound your vehicle or motorbike, in prison you overnight to appear in court the next morning.When you have paid the fixed penalty imposed by the court, currently 5,000bht motorbike and 8,000bht pick up, you are given a receipt and can show this when getting your wheels back .Incidentally the Xmas /New Year anti drink driving campaign will be starting next Saturday the 17th with many road blocks around the popular drinking areas, including the night markets . The BIB have been allocated shifts from 9pm until 3am. I understand the stringent targets set will not permit backhanders and you may find an additional penalty imposed by the court if you attempt one .That extra drink can cost you a lot of money and an uncomfortable nights sleep on a stone floor . Think about it first is my advise .Of course you might even pay the ultimate price ."

Thanks for the morning humor. I guess you must be describing what goes on in some other country that doesn't make corruption such a highly sought after enterprise. I especially liked the part about "backhanders" not being permitted. LOL LOL 555555555

by **Sateev** » December 12, 2011, 11:37 am

parrot wrote:"We can choose to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist playing along with the "system" or we can choose to take the high road and refuse to participate in it whenever possible."

All ye who forfeit your driver's license at a police stop instead of paying cash-in-hand, raise your hands!

Anyone???

I have to fall in behind Parrot on this one.

It is the way it is, and there's no sense in trying to change it. You have to be pragmatic, and you have to choose your battles.

I do see a difference, however, between paying a small fine on the spot, vs. being subject to intentionally difficult (and unlawful) harassment by Immigration Officers. How far to take it is everyone's own choice. Sateev learned which is harder, his head or a stone wall, a long time ago.

The greater issue is everyone's own to consider: "Is what Thailand brings to my life, on balance, worth staying?"

Used to be an easy, "Yes", but, now, it's an open question (for me). People well-ensconced in Udon will almost certainly have a different answer, as their routine is well-established, and predictable. Good for them.

by **jackspratt** » December 13, 2011, 9:31 pm

jackspratt wrote:
fdimike wrote: However, corruption doesn't pervade nearly every facet of life in the US as it does here in Thailand. Additionally, it's dealt with in an open and transparent court system and not behind closed doors or simply swept under the rug if you have enough money.

If you took a few minutes to watch this documentary (which I have just done - the 1st part at least, and eagerly awaiting the 2nd next week):

http://www.torturingdemocracy.org/

you would hopefully come to a different conclusion on "open and transparent", and "swept under the rug".

The world is now very belatedly witnessing the trials of the top leadership of the Khmer Rouge.

Do you think we will ever see Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Addington, Yoo etc etc (with perhaps their lapdogs Blair and Howard) standing in the same dock?

I have just watched the 2nd part of the documentary, and I am speechless. :evil:

by **fdimike** » December 13, 2011, 9:58 pm

Jack

I've watched all three parts and am totally floored, and disgusted by the actions of our government first under Bush and now Obama. I doubt Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Yoo etc etc will ever see the inside of a courtroom which is just pretty damned sad. All this from the country who jailed Martha Stewart for her dastardly deeds.

by **parrot** » December 13, 2011, 10:16 pm

"Do you think we will ever see Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Addington, Yoo etc etc (with perhaps their lapdogs Blair and Howard) standing in the same dock?"

Might have to add another name to the docket.......
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/ ... story.html
"By Marc A. Thiessen,

A true story: Several years ago, the CIA informed the White House counterterrorism adviser that it had located a wanted Islamic terrorist and requested White House guidance for how to proceed. The counterterrorism adviser recommended “extraordinary rendition” — snatching the terrorist in a covert operation and secretly whisking him away for interrogation in a foreign country. A White House lawyer demanded a meeting with the president to argue that this would be a violation of international law. In the Oval Office, the lawyer and the counterterrorism adviser argued their cases, when suddenly the vice president walked in. Hearing the lawyer’s objections, he said: “Of course it’s a violation of international law, that’s why it’s a covert action. The guy is a terrorist. Go grab his ass.’ ” The rendition was authorized.

The vice president in question was not Dick Cheney, nor was the president George W. Bush. Rather, they men who decided to carry out the first extraordinary rendition of a terrorist target — over the legal objections of the White House counsel’s office — were Al Gore and Bill Clinton, according a description of the meeting by the counterterrorism adviser, Richard Clarke, in his memoir, “Against All Enemies.”"

I never feel comfortable comparing Thai standards with US standards (pollution, justice, corruption, political manipulations, you name it).....for all their problems, we have our own fair share. We've had 225ish years of working with an established constitution....and no coups during that time.....whereas Thailand has had 20-ish coups/attempts in the past 100 or so years and almost as many charters/constitutions (17). I don't even sense a feeling of ownership by the common Thai with a constitution, as most of their lives have been spent under the rule of martial law or military rule.

I'm not excusing any of the ills of the country I live in, nor saying their system is any better or worse than our (USA) own. As my wife reminded me today while discussing the political situation in this country, "It is what it is and there's not much the common Thai can do about it." I'd only add, "nor expat" to her statement.

by **fdimike** » December 14, 2011, 12:15 am

Let me begin by saying the origins of this post had nothing to do with comparing corruption here in Thailand with any other place on earth. Unfortunately, it sort of unintentionally drifted out of bounds.

What Parrot failed to point out is that Thiessen is the former speech writer for none other than Bush Jr. and draws great accolades from such notables like Dick Cheney & Donald Rumsfeld for his "outstanding literary work" Courting Disaster: How the CIA Kept America Safe and How Barack Obama is Inviting the Next attack.

"Marc Thiessen knows, in ways that few others do, just how effective, heroic, and morally justified were the interrogators who kept this nation safe after 9/11. If you want to know what really happened behind the scenes at the CIA interrogation sites or at Guantanamo Bay, you simply must read this book." —Dick Cheney Another endorsement comes from none other than Mr Rumsfeld himself - "In Courting Disaster Marc Thiessen sets the Record Straight".

Thiessen is hardly a scholar (BA Vassar College) nor does he have an extensive journalism career (2010-2011)nor would one classify him as unbiased (member - neoconservative think tank American Enterprise Institute). What he does have is a proclivity to rub elbows with the likes of Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and former Senator Jesse Helms who was a master obstructionist opposing civil rights, disability rights, feminism, homosexuality etc etc etc as well as a host of other neocons. His writings from what I can determine are all one sided and hardly worth reading unless you are only looking for one distorted side of the issue.

It appears to me that Thiessens intent (arrest Bill Clinton) is an attempt to counter Amnesty International's call for the arrest of George Bush for war crimes. I'm not sure why he wants to stop with Bill Clinton though when the history of extrodinary rendition dates back to at least 1985 during the Achille Lauro incident. Maybe we should have Reagan exhaumed as well to face charges!

by **parrot** » December 14, 2011, 9:24 am

Getting back to the meat of the thread.....crime/corruption in Thailand.....I tend to agree with jai yen yen's assessment: "It is called Thai culture, we as Farang just don't understand Thai culture". Yet hardly a day goes by that we don't try to impress our standards on them.
And that reminds me of my New Year's resolution......to not eat in any Thai restaurant that doesn't wash dishes (by hand) in water that is at least 110 degree F. Anything less than that would put my health at risk. http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/Reta ... 106705.htm
Happy Holidays!

by **Laan Yaa Mo** » December 14, 2011, 11:02 am

Khun Parrot, you (the United States of America) may not have had a coup, but there were a few assassinations and attempted assassinations of Presidents, and that inconvenient event, the Civil War between the Confederate States and the Union. I do not think that Thailand has had any of those despite the controversial death of a head of state.

I am not just whistling, 'Dixie', either.

by **jai yen yen** » December 14, 2011, 1:30 pm

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:Khun Parrot, you (the United States of America) may not have had a coup, but there were a few assassinations and attempted assassinations of Presidents, and that inconvenient event, the Civil War between the Confederate States and the Union. I do not think that Thailand has had any of those despite the controversial death of a head of state.

I am not just whistling, 'Dixie', either.

Hardly a fair comparison, Yes there have been assassinations in the U.S. but they were not accepted by the public as business as usual like the Thais do with corruption. We are also talking about today not history but if we were I think you would find some pretty disturbing events in Siams past. As well 2 wrongs do not make a right,you cannot justify Thailands shortcomings by pointing fingers at other countries and there problems. This topic is about crime and corruption in Thailand and the depth of it and the fact that it is so accepted that it may never be cured. I could start a topic on Canada and everything wrong here but I don't think anyone would care.

by **parrot** » December 14, 2011, 2:37 pm

"This topic is about crime and corruption in Thailand and the depth of it and the fact that it is so accepted that it may never be cured."

I'd not say "it may never be cured"......it'll just take the right set of circumstances.....as people have found in Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Syria....maybe Russia (I'm not trying to drag other countries into the argument). I'd say the country is ripe for that kind of change.....what with the rift between the reds/yellows/blues/blacks.....not to mention the ever-extinguishing flame at the top of the dynasty. There's a lot at stake for all involved.......and expats probably don't play into their concerns in the least. For that, I'd be more concerned, than worry about corruption/crime that generally have not affected me over the past 15 years.

by **nkstan** » December 14, 2011, 7:31 pm

Some Bangkok police came through Nong Khai last week,hit the falang oriented bars for 15K a pop for not having proper ''music licences''.Negotiated down from 30K to 15K.Wonder if that money winds up in some politicians house ,stuffed in garbage bags! :lol:

by **Laan Yaa Mo** » December 14, 2011, 7:57 pm

'We are also talking about today not history', this may be yet Khun Parrot brought up the 225 years vs. 100 years of recent Thai history, not me, so it is fair game to comment on his statement. However, I do agree with you that barely no-one would be interested in comments re: corruption and so on in Canada. There are too few of us on this forum to challenge the American, British and Australian posters in regard to politics and sport in those countries.

Corruption is, obviously, endemic to Thailand, and most countries around the world. There is no getting around it. The Anglo-Saxon countries seem to have less of it than the rest of the world, but it is not absent there either. Canada's corruption ranking has worsened over the years; however, we still do not seem corrupt in the sense that countries like Thailand, China, Burma, Cambodia, India et al can be seen to be corrupt nations.

Remember that it was only in the late 18th and early 19th centuries that Britain made the transition from being a corrupt nation in the sense of 'Old Corruption' a la Robert Walpole to a more 'hard' nation.

I think it was Gunnar Myrdal who came up with a theory about the whys and wherefores of this.

by **trubrit** » December 14, 2011, 8:14 pm

Itsa interesting to note that the original crime and corruption I used to start this tropic has gone very quiet .

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