Cukongs - INDONESIA

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Laan Yaa Mo
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Cukongs - INDONESIA

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » November 12, 2012, 7:37 pm

Harmony George mentioned Indonesian children getting a highly paid education in a thread a few weeks ago. I suggested that these children were, for the most part, the offspring of Chinese elites. This was owing to a partnership Chinese businessmen had made with Indonesian Army generals during the administration of Suharto, but I could not remember the name.

'Cukongs' is the word used to define the connection between the military and Chinese businessmen in Indonesia. Under this system, a limited number of 'cukong' - Indonesian-Chinese businessmen controlling great conglomerates - are matched with one or more major figures in the higher echelons of the military pyramid, starting with President Suharto (I don't know what the connection is today). With protection of the highest quality each 'cukong' makes fortunes for both himself, by buying loyalty, and his patron in the army.

Also, there were foreign firms that had army connections. The responsibility of these firms was to ensure a steady flow of funds for the army and to avoid excess corruption. Corruption was to be expected. The problem, of course, turned out to be excess corruption.

The army provided Chinese businessmen with security and prestige in return for funding. Thus, you had army officers running state-owned industries with their Chinese cronies behind the scenes. The officers play the role of old-time Javanese rulers and aristocrats to obtain a large-scale patron-client structure.


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Post by harmonyudon » November 13, 2012, 1:31 am

@Khun Laan Yaa Mo,
This was owing to a partnership Chinese businessmen had made with Indonesian Army generals
during the administration of Suharto, but I could not remember the name.
Perhaps you mean this man : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudono_Salim

The content of your 'article' above might be true, but Indonesia has changed after the Suharto period.
The KPK is now every day here on the news, for example:
http://transitions.foreignpolicy.com/po ... r_its_life


ps: although I still use this ID, I am not involved anymore in Harmony Bar, so its just G.
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Post by Laan Yaa Mo » November 13, 2012, 2:24 am

No, I meant the name 'cukong', which I could not remember.

It was not an article, it is a summary based on my lecture notes of the Suharto period.

Yes, Suharto is dead and gone but the influence and power of some Chinese businessmen remains.

Anyway, thanks.
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Post by harmonyudon » November 13, 2012, 12:42 pm

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:Yes, Suharto is dead and gone but the influence and power of some Chinese businessmen remains
I doubt if this statement is still valid now.
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Post by BobHelm » November 13, 2012, 1:11 pm

The top 5 richest people in Indonesia are:

Budi Hartono $11B
Susilo Wonowidjojo $8B
Eka Tjipta Wijaya $6B
Martua Sitorus $3.2B
Anthony Salim $3B

Look up any of them in Wikipedia & you will find that it calls each of them
Chinese Indonesian businessman
I would say that it looks like Uncle has called it exactly correctly... :D

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Post by harmonyudon » November 13, 2012, 1:40 pm

Laan Yaa Mo wrote:Yes, Suharto is dead and gone but the influence and power of some Chinese businessmen remains
@Bob,
I was talking about the influence and power of those rich people and officials. Of course some of them are still rich. But I doubt if politicians,military, police and rich people can misuse their power like during the Suharto period. The people on the street won't accept it any more. Nowadays common people are not afraid anymore for the police nor the military. For misusing your power and corruption on a big scale they have to be very very careful now.

I remember those days when we were scared to criticize The President. Nowadays nobody is scared to give positive or negative comments publicly, also journalists have more freedom.
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Post by BobHelm » November 13, 2012, 1:52 pm

If you believe that money does not equate to power & influence then you are indeed an idealist. :D

I will not attempt to shatter your illusions... :D

I still believe that all the evidence points towards Uncle having a rather more realistic approach to what is happening though..

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Post by harmonyudon » November 13, 2012, 2:01 pm

Corruption by high officials exists even in the western world, of course also in Indonesia.

For me one of the best example is Prince Bernhard of Lippe-Biesterfeld, the husband of the Dutch Queen
before. I am referring to the Lockheed affair. At the end it came out.
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Post by Laan Yaa Mo » November 13, 2012, 7:26 pm

Thanks for that stellar bit of research, Khun Helm.

[quote="harmonyudon The people on the street won't accept it any more. Nowadays common people are not afraid anymore for the police nor the military. For misusing your power and corruption on a big scale they have to be very very careful now.

I remember those days when we were scared to criticize The President. Nowadays nobody is scared to give positive or negative comments publicly, also journalists have more freedom.[/quote]


HarmonyUdon: I think when you say the 'people on the street', you mean 'the little people' as Sukarno used to call them. It was not the common people, but the Indonesian middle class who stood up to Suharto after he started shooting and killing their children at university. The students were protesting his regime. The common people did as they were told. Yes, they can be motivated to protest and march as they did in the past by charismatic leaders, such as Sukarno and the P.K.I. leadership, or by the middle class.

One point is for sure, Indonesia is a most fascinating country.
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Post by harmonyudon » November 13, 2012, 7:54 pm

It takes time to wipe out the past but this country this country is rapidly changing in a positive way.
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Post by Laan Yaa Mo » November 13, 2012, 8:06 pm

Yes, I agree, and Indonesia is a very difficult country to govern.
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Post by harmonyudon » November 14, 2012, 4:06 pm

Perhaps this would add to this subject. Interview with the current (Indonesian) Managing Director of the World Bank, btw not a chinese...hehehe

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Post by BobHelm » November 14, 2012, 4:36 pm

Yes, she is one of the 25 Executive Directors of the World Bank & would appear to be maybe a little too close to see the trees from the wood... :D

A slightly less biased verdict, from the World Audit Organisation lists Indonesia as the joint 77 place out of 149 places for corruption - number 1 being the least corrupt (& New Zealand).
Thailand are number 60.

Wikipedia says on the subject..
In January 2012, it was reported that Indonesia has lost as much as Rp 2.13 trillion (US$238.6 million) to corruption in 2011. A study conducted by Indonesia Corruption Watch, a non-profit organization co-ordinated by Danang Widoyoko, said that embezzlement accounted for most of the money lost and that “government investment was the sector most prone to graft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Indonesia

So maybe improving, but still a long road to travel,,, :D

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Post by harmonyudon » November 14, 2012, 4:52 pm

BobHelm wrote:Yes, she is one of the 25 Executive Directors of the World Bank & would appear to be maybe a little too close to see the trees from the wood... :D
I thought the world bank have only 3 Managing Directors @Bob. Nr 50 of the most powerfull woman
in the world she has been ranked. But that's not important. The hight society in Indonesia shall perhaps be more
carefull 'TO PLAY' with worldbank projects :D

AND
Post by harmonyudon » November 13, 2012, 7:54 pm
It takes time to wipe out the past but this country this country is rapidly changing in a positive way.
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Post by BobHelm » November 14, 2012, 5:15 pm

I must admit that I don't know exactly which position she holds within the World Bank.
This is its' structure...
Leadership

The President of the Bank, currently Jim Yong Kim, is responsible for chairing the meetings of the Boards of Directors and for overall management of the Bank. Traditionally, the Bank President has always been a US citizen nominated by the United States, the largest shareholder in the bank. The nominee is subject to confirmation by the Board of Executive Directors, to serve for a five-year, renewable term. While most World Bank presidents have had banking experience, some have not.

The vice presidents of the Bank are its principal managers, in charge of regions, sectors, networks and functions. There are two Executive Vice Presidents, three Senior Vice Presidents, and 24 Vice Presidents.

The Boards of Directors consist of the World Bank Group President and 25 Executive Directors. The President is the presiding officer, and ordinarily has no vote except a deciding vote in case of an equal division. The Executive Directors as individuals cannot exercise any power nor commit or represent the Bank unless specifically authorized by the Boards to do so. With the term beginning 1 November 2010, the number of Executive Directors increased by one, to 25

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Post by harmonyudon » November 14, 2012, 5:18 pm

BobHelm wrote:Yes, she is one of the 25 Executive Directors of the World Bank & would appear to be maybe a little too close to see the trees from the wood... :D


I was right @Bob, perhaps you should do your home work first before making above remark.
Sri Mulyani Indrawati is the managing director at the World Bank and responsible for the institution’s operations in all regions. In addition she oversees other administrative vice-presidencies and functions, including the Integrity Vice Presidency, Sanctions Board Secretariat and the Office of Evaluation and Suspension.
To understand the Job title Managing Director of the Worldbank perhaps this example is explaining.
Since 1995, Caroline has worked in various positions in the World Bank including: Country Director for the Caribbean; Director of Media Relations and Chief Spokesperson; and Assistant and Speechwriter to World Bank President, James D. Wolfensohn. In November 2007, she was appointed by President Robert B. Zoellick to the position of World Bank Chief of Staff. Then on July 1, 2010, Caroline was appointed as Vice President, External Affairs. She held that position until her appointment as Managing Director on September 19, 2011. As Managing Director, Caroline has special responsibility for the Bank’s operational services, policy and systems and its modernization drive, continuing her commitment to make the Bank an open, results-based and effective organization. She also has special oversight on gender issues.
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNA ... 07,00.html

http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNA ... 08,00.html
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Post by harmonyudon » November 14, 2012, 5:19 pm

WE posted nearly at the same time,so I did not see your previous post .... :)
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Post by BobHelm » November 14, 2012, 5:29 pm

My remark about her being too close is, however completely accurate.
As she was Finance Minister in Indonesia until she took the job at the World Bank she is hardly going to stand up & say that the Government institutions are corrupt, is she??
I would sooner believe what the independent facts appear to say... :D

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Post by harmonyudon » November 14, 2012, 6:01 pm

BobHelm wrote:Wikipedia says on the subject..
In January 2012, it was reported that Indonesia has lost as much as Rp 2.13 trillion (US$238.6 million) to corruption in 2011. A study conducted by Indonesia Corruption Watch, a non-profit organization co-ordinated by Danang Widoyoko, said that embezzlement accounted for most of the money lost and that “government investment was the sector most prone to graft
@Bob,
Perhaps she let this task to the KPK (Indonesia Corruption Watch) who is now daily on the (TV) news and they are
NOT afraid for the 'High Powers'. Every citizen and/or organizations can report corruption of any level, even by sms.

To give an example: I hardly see traffic cups in Jakarta making money anymore like in UdonThani.
If you are not wrong people dare to protest and the cups earn nothing. If you are wrong that's a
different story :cry: , like in Europe. Arriving at the airport at the passport &visa control and
I saw a big sign, NO CORRUPTION HERE and please report. Another example, during the Suharto period
one of his (far) family want to work at City Bank as a trainee. A minister called one of the boss and he was
(must be) hired. Nowadays, if he does not qualified for the job, forget it.

The journalists are watching and reporting corruption also, that's a good sign.

But, the world corruption index table shows that Indonesia is still somewhere in the middle and I'm confident
that this country will improve.
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Post by Laan Yaa Mo » November 14, 2012, 7:29 pm

Hmmm, perhaps corruption in present-day Indonesia is not as widespread as it once was under Suharto, but Indonesia still has a long way to go in eradicating the problem, and I doubt that posting signs at the airport for tourists to read will improve the situation much.

What is the military budget? The problem since independence was that the Indonesian military do not get much in the way of money, and had to look to the private sector for financing. This led to the 'cukong'-military partnership.
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