First Aid - Do I stop and assist or turn a blind eye?

The EMT Thread had some interesting posts concerning , the medico legal aspects of rendering First Aid as a by stander etc.

I dont profess to be a lawyer at all, but would like to share my knowledge , views and experiences in this area.

The first thing to acknowledge is the location / country of the posters, as the laws will differ enormously.

Eg high litigation countries such as the US, Australia , will see many cases and laws that are applicable.

My background is within Australia, but also having international qualifications eg, ACLS, ITLS ( USA ) , BASICS ( UK ) and my previous intensive care paramedic quals from Oz.

In 1983? in Australia, Justice Badgery Parker handed down a decision on the intervention of licenced medical practioners, when they were requested to assist in a case of a patient suffering a seizure near a clinic, the Dr refused to attend, stating patient wasnt from his clinic and they called an ambulance .

Bottom line was the Dr was found negligent - and had a duty of care, due to the proximity of the patient.

That ruling can now be used within Australia, to make licenced practioners attend an incident even when off duty and requested to do so. So if your a nurse, paramedic, Doctor, or even an industial first aider, etc, you could be called to assist and refusal might lead to litigation.

What resulted in that was , Dr's dont carry equipment in their cars, cars not in their names, , so that the Ambulance chasers ( lawyers whose only concern is greed ) find it harder to prove a qualified / licenced person passed by the scene of their patient ( money spinner ) , didnt stop , therefore more pain and anguish !

There are many " Good Samaritin " laws in the US, protecting people who do stop and assist, and the major thing is, u only administer any aid to the level of your training and competence ( if you havent done a skill for 15 years dont do that roadside trachy ! )

Not all states in the US have these laws, and certainly they do not exsist within Australia,

So what do u do in Thailand, well they only passed some laws a while ago, allowing individuals to sue Doctors for negligence, before that they were totally immune !

Dont hold your breath, as it might take 5 years before anything happens with your case.

Im not aware of any common law or statute issues within Thailand on the provision of First Aid at an accident or incident.

What woud play a part in any case would be your qualifications and what you did.

The First rule of any intervention as pointed out before, is do no harm .

I attended a tragic accident years ago, when a car rolled over ++ and came to a halt , still on its roof. A Bystander, rushed over, and cut the seat belt ( inertia reel ) which had locked in place and was holding the patient pinned into his seat and upside down. Result he dropped to the ground , on his head which resulted in quadraplegia.

If you did stop at an accident scene and choose to assist etc , remember the golden rules,

Dangers, Safety to you, your patient and the surrounding environment. If not safe DONT try to be a dead hero ,

This Safety issue can be used as a "get out of jail card" , eg, if you dont have gloves , PPE, then you cant assist.

Over the years, i have and will continue to stop at some incidents, eg, if the patients look unwell,

I have saved 1 guys life by removing a piece of broken denture from his larynx which had stopped his breathing.

I would recommend 1 thing, make sure the Police are in attendance and also call the Tourist Police to attend, they could always support your attendance and observe that it was done professionally. etc

The one thing, that could cause some problem, is the " Expat " caused the accident, stopped, didnt help, or did and it wasnt right, thats why insurance reps are also a next point of call.

First Aid over my career of 30 years has benefited many people before the arrival of more advanced medical care etc,

It generally doesnt "save lifes " but what it can do is to stop you from going down the slippery slope towards death.

I left this bit to last:

My statutory ambulance service was sued for $850 odd AUD years ago for a case i attended.

45 yo female who collapsed in a restaurent , Ambulance arrived 3-4 mins later, CPR was being preformed. Diagnosis - Cardiac Arrest, cut off the dress, bra, expose the chest, apply the defib pads, 2 defibs, intubation, Iv and drugs, ventilated her, and we got her back, discharged from hospital approx 12 days later with a permanent pacemaker insitu.

She actually had an electrical conductivity issue that caused this incident, not the normal anatomical blocked artery etc.

She sued us, for damages to her new cocktail dress and bra, saying i should have been more careful and looked after her property etc.

We paid out on it, as its quicker and cheaper , that to fight it.

Hope this assists some members with the way they look at providing first aid.

Very well written and I can't agree more.

Only aside to this is if offered in Thailand the CPR and first aid class, ones self and spouse should attend for nothing more to help ones own family. As stated before, in falang land it is common for the teaching of CPR and first aid. Not so in Thailand. It is getting more popular. In saying this I can only hope by taking my spouse to these type classes, if I do have distress, the spouse will be able to assist.

Thanks for the write up Wazza. Again I agree with all written. Notice I only said take classes for personal gain in my family only.

Yep touchy stuff In California you don't have a current certification better not thump and pump.

You are only protected to the extent you can prove you are qaulified.

Family member here yes, anyone else I really don't know I haven't so far.

I think most people would perform some degree of first aid regardless of whether they may get their butts sued or not. It seems we don't have many good Samaritans on this site then?

don't have many good Samaritans

not sure about that, but since this is the 'Land Of Scams', many wouldn't get involved for fear of getting blamed for the inevitable loss of life, even with fairly knowledgeable effort. even arrested, since they have that very vague 'responsible for death' law, which can be applied at their discretion. i'm not trained, but have enough common sense to stop bleeding, don't move, unless life threatening to stay there, know a little of a few things to assist, but wouldn't try to resuscitate someone/cpr, as unless started immediately, it usually doesn't work, especially if heart related and no defib available. if having a heart condition, if i took someone shirt off and they had a heart surgery scar, i don't think i would touch them anyway, no matter what training i had. unless actually seeing someone at the initial falling out, then i would tread carefully. we are not liked here, and they would love to blame us for anything, which many do anyway, including someones demise. it is sad that many of us, including myself feel that way, but if they apply their logic of auto accidents to injuries or mishaps of health the same way, i am not touching or even stopping to assist anyone. corruption effects every aspect of life here, something that has to be accepted and realized, as it won't change for the next 100 years. i've assisted in a couple situation, non resuscitation, but definitely life threatening, it felt good, but they were slightly different situations. played life guard at the beach a couple times, and watched a motorbike crash in front of me where a little one received a nasty head injury, without comment to mother and grand mother i picked up kid, after doing a spine/neck check, foot reflex to make sure no obvious injury and put him and mother in car and broke the land speed record to hospital from village. she didn't protest, is she did i would of took the kid anyway, not sure if he made it on not, but speed to hospital definitely would of improved his chances, as he was out of it by the time we got there, less than 10 minutes. i didn't feel comfortable waiting with mother to see outcome, as i know some people, though grateful as she was that i helped, can be swayed to do anything and believe anything from someone a bit more opportunist. it is very sad we have to think that way, but it protects me and my family.

I have given CPR three times one guy survived. if your not there immediately you are exposing yourself to risk with very little chance of success. Thailand is Thailand and it's all about money.

any were in the world I would try and help except in Thailand only people I would help here are expats and family members I got a taste of helping some one and it was not pleasant I will just keeping going

Edited by Udon Mod Team

IN the UK ambulance crews wont assist an injured man in 6 inches of water because of "elf and safety" rules.
Apparently only firemen can help when someone is in 6 inches of water. This world has gone completely mad.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... water.html

Galee wrote:IN the UK ambulance crews wont assist an injured man in 6 inches of water because of "elf and safety" rules.
Apparently only firemen can help when someone is in 6 inches of water. This world has gone completely mad.

Yes, it's a bit silly, isn't it. I always thought that grown ups had the experience to assess the risk and then get on with it. Mind you, you never know what's in six inches of water these days, man-eating sharks, Piranha, naughty children....

I think people are scared of taking responsibility for their actions these days and would rather hide behind faceless bureaucratic nonsense - that's why nothing ever gets done in UK.

Turning a blind eye????Never,just can't do it!
I assess the situation and determine if the need is essential by me or not as far as life threatening is concerned!
So far,the situation, of need ,has not presented itself,which I am thankful for,not only for potential victims,but because I fear that I and my families welfare could be in jeapordy from my assisting!And,I know that I can not walk away or turn a ''blind eye'' to a real emergency situation!

It is a bit of a quandry,for sure!But even though I have no faith in the realism of any protection by the Thai EMSA2008,I think I will attend the course,to give me a possibility of some protection anyway!

Keep me posted on the next course!

Anyone know if there is a course in January ?

Stop and have a pray for them.

Ter wrote:Anyone know if there is a course in January ?

They are going to let me know the rearanged dates, as soon as I know, I will post details.

AussieBoy wrote:Stop and have a pray for them.

And I pray its not you lying there!

Cheers Ralf, if there is one in jan I would like to go.

Gents

I am a licenced and accreditted Level 2 First Aid Instructor.

I have the course available on DVD.

What i dont have is a CPR manequin and the cleaning aids etc

I would consider conducting an abridged First Aid Course here in Udon, if there was enough interest.

CPR can be still be shown on the DVD.

Its a 1 day course , and I would need a classroom or seminar room with seating, a DVD player, TV, or even better an IT facility that can play from the DVD to the large screen.

Im sure some one might ?? be able to source or know of where it could be run.

I wont have the time to organise it as such, Issues such as coffee breaks, need to be addressed.

Its an international course and as such normally attracts a fee of say $50 USD approx, as certificates need to be registered , as this is Thailand and my Visa doesnt allow me to teach this for income etc, I would still do the course for free , as a First Aid Awareness, no certificates issued,

Perhaps a small donation at the door to Terry's charity would suffice ?

See what a few of you think ???