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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

World news discussion forum

How do you view Snowden's actions in (further) exposing the spooks?

Hero - hopefully will find a happy home in a place with no extradition treaty with the US or ally.
58
61%
Traitor - should be strung up from the nearest tree.
23
24%
Other - can't make up my mind yet.
14
15%
 
Total votes : 95

NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby bumper » July 30, 2013, 5:24 pm

I think we are back agree to disagree.

ACLU would take this in the Constutional basis, Snowden would be the vehicle for that.

I don't think any Government looking a for party reelection, would want to get their hand in the cookie jar again over something like this.

Just trials are jury trials by your peers sometimes they work sometimes they don't, that is the chance we all take in our system.

Yes you can have prearranged bail in felony cases when you surrender. You sure are not going to get it by fleeing.

CNN-5 hours ago
Whether Manning is a whistle-blower or a traitor who betrayed his country has been hotly ( Due for verdict soon)

Manning is a Military Soldier and subject to the rules of the UMCJ rules much harsher then civil laws.

So lets at least try to keep apples to apples.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby fdimike » July 30, 2013, 5:30 pm

Parrot

Your points are well taken. However, its not technology which is at fault here. Technology is a wonderful tool when used wisely. Afterall it got us to the moon and back, developed great medical advances which now includes the 3D printing of human tissue. It is those who have tried to master it and apply it in an illegal manner which is what the NSA has done with the blessing of Mr Obama. That's what we're talking about here. We have a Bill of Rights for a reason with lots of people giving their life to help defend and preserve it and the Constitution. The NSA along with the Obama administration has gone way beyond the intent and meaning of section 215 of the Patriot Act which applies to this surveillance program, not to mention the 4th, 5th & 6th Amendments to the Constitution. The FISA court has compounded it all by rubber stamping the program giving it some sort of validity. How exciting we now have two supreme courts (one in public and one secret) interpeting the constitutionality of a program. Even those in congress realize there is a problem and are working to change/constrain it all.

I would find another employer if it meant that I would have to use the likes of Facebook, Twitter and the like.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby bumper » July 30, 2013, 5:36 pm

This looks like an orange to me:

Whistle-blower or traitor? Bradley Manning to learn fate
By CNN Staff
July 30, 2013 -- Updated 1024 GMT (1824 HKT)
Watch this video
Assange: 'Bradley Manning is a hero'
STORY HIGHLIGHTS

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange calls Bradley Manning a hero
If found guilty of aiding the enemy, Manning could be sentenced to life in prison
He is accused of releasing 750,000 pages of classified documents and videos

(CNN) -- After spending three years in custody, the man accused of the largest leak of classified information in U.S. history will learn Tuesday whether he has been found guilty of aiding the enemy.

A verdict from the judge in the court-martial of Pfc. Bradley Manning will be announced at 1 p.m. ET Tuesday, according to a spokeswoman for the military district of Washington.

If found guilty on the aiding the enemy charge, Manning could be sentenced to life in prison. He has pleaded guilty to nearly a dozen lesser charges that carry a sentence of up to 20 years behind bars.

Whether Manning is a whistle-blower or a traitor who betrayed his country has been hotly debated.

Read more: What do Manning's actions mean? Depends who is talking
Snowden and Manning: Accused leakers
New documentary examines WikiLeaks
Sharing secrets: U.S. intelligence leaks Sharing secrets: U.S. intelligence leaks
Notable leakers and whistleblowers Notable leakers and whistleblowers

Authorities have accused Manning of delivering three quarters of a million pages of classified documents and videos to the secret-sharing site WikiLeaks, which has never confirmed the soldier was the source of its information. The material covered numerous aspects of U.S. military strategy in Iraq, gave what some called a ground view of events in the Afghanistan war and revealed the inner workings of U.S. State Department diplomacy in leaked cables.

When he entered his guilty pleas on the lesser charges earlier this year, Manning spent more than an hour in court reading a statement about why he leaked the information.

He said the information he passed on "upset" or "disturbed" him, but there was nothing he thought would harm the United States if it became public. Manning said he thought the documents were old and the situations they referred to had changed or ended.

"I believed if the public was aware of the data, it would start a public debate of the wars," he said during his court-martial. He said he was "depressed about the situation there," meaning Iraq, where he was stationed as an intelligence analyst.

He first tried to give the information to The Washington Post, but a reporter there didn't seem like she took him seriously, he said. He left a voice mail for the New York Times and sent an e-mail to the newspaper but, he claims, he didn't hear back. So he decided to give the information to WikiLeaks.

After WikiLeaks published a trove of documents related to the Afghanistan war in 2010, the site became an international sensation, as did its chief, Julian Assange.

"We call those types of people that are willing to risk ... being a martyr for all the rest of us, we call those people heroes," Assange told CNN's Jake Tapper. "Bradley Manning is a hero."

Assange described the case against Manning, specifically the aiding the enemy charge, as a serious attack against investigative journalism.

"It will be the end, essentially, of national security journalism in the United States," he said on the eve of the verdict.

Assange spoke from the Ecuadorean Embassy in London. He sought refuge there to avoid extradition to Sweden, where he is wanted for questioning over allegations of *** crimes. Assange has said he thinks the claims against him are Washington's way of getting him arrested so that he can be extradited to the United States to face charges.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby fdimike » July 30, 2013, 5:44 pm

Bumper

"Yes you can have prearranged bail in felony cases when you surrender. You sure are not going to get it by fleeing."

Please provide a cite. This is a federal felony case. The rules are sinificantly different from the state courts. Once again I'll use Manning as an example of not being granted bail. Snowden will be in the same position. There are certainly instance where the US attorney on the case will not oppose bail but they are few and far between. I can guarantee you that he would never be granted bail. The first thing the US Attorney would tell the court is he a flight risk.

Let me state again that the ACLU does not accept criminal cases. They will lobby the courts on your behalf regarding your constitutional rights but will not defend you. They file legal briefs with the courts in support of a myriad of causes but they do not defend anyone in federal criminal court accused of a crime.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby bumper » July 30, 2013, 6:11 pm

Mike I will believe what I believe and you can believe what you do. In the end what does it matter :lol: . Did Elsberg get bail? Was he tortured. I fully agree that solitary confinement for extended times a akin to torture. As a matter fact it was the ultimate punishment in the County Jail where I was a Watch Commander. Then only time I recall using it was when we had someone was on suicide watch.

We are talking a civilian system here. Not UCMJ system I'm sure you know they are different.

Tell you what you go look for the case law. That's work I'm retired ;) :lol:
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby fdimike » July 30, 2013, 6:30 pm

Ray

Daniel Ellsberg happened nearly 40 years ago. I'm sure you would agree things have changed significantly since then. The word "secret" was not so easily used to prevent those in congress from questioning.

I understand the federal courts are a civilian system. I worked in the Florida Middle District (federal court) for nearly 20 years. I used Manning as an example but I could easily have come up with a hundred others who been denied bail for lesser offenses.

Come on Ray I would like to know where you're getting your information regarding pre-arranged bail in federal court. Maybe you're correct but I have never heard of it especially in case of this magnitude with a defendant who has been on the run.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby bumper » July 30, 2013, 8:15 pm

This magnitude and flight risk as he is. You may just have me there. Lets face it he made things even worse when he ran.

Of course things have changed in 40 years and in another 40 years won't be the same as today. Law as you know works that way. In another few years will will have a New President. Heaven only knows if he/she will be better.

Many of the civil liberties we were given, have been changed in one form or another. Amendments will always make adjustments the original document. It's need to fit the world a it changes. I have to ask myself how strong was Snowdens believe, if he would not stand up and fight for it. That is how things change not by running away.

But that is my believe.

But, I might be very wrong wouldn't be the first time. Of course there is a chance you might be wrong as well ;) :lol:

Mike gentle hint I don't debate, just say what I believe.

I left America as much about the system as anything else. I don't know about your career bit, mine was full of Politics, most of which were garbage. Because of the way things were there I could have never had there what I have here. Could you imagine, what a mess my wife would have do through to own and sale mushrooms and fish. I gave up some freedoms for that, it's certain I can't talk about here. I have to report to the Thia Government five times a year and even after eleven years I still have to prove I have enough money to be here. It was trade off of some freedoms for a better life.

Young Mr. Snowden has some dues to pay, he is already in that. Last I heard he is still in the airport. He will pay them in one form or another. I believe that to be fact.

See things didn't fit for me any longer there. But, I won't be looking over my shoulder wondering when they would get me. I won't be living in a Country that might not have been my best choice.

This has already dropped from the cry of traitor to a criminal act, admitted by the Attorney General if you watched the interview. We can revisit his when Mr. Snowden stands tall in Court and then we will see who was right :lol:

Till then we are both working on conjecture my friend
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby RLTrader » July 30, 2013, 8:22 pm

Major opinion shifts, in the US and Congress, on NSA surveillance and privacy

Pew finds that, for the first time since 9/11, Americans are now more worried about civil liberties abuses than terrorism

GreenWald

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... rivacy-pew
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby bumper » July 30, 2013, 8:31 pm

Keeping it narrowly passed the house. Things are going his way he needs to step up.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby fdimike » July 31, 2013, 7:17 am

This today from the NY Times.

"Lurking just behind a military court’s conviction of Pfc. Bradley Manning, on charges that included multiple violations of the Espionage Act, is a national-security apparatus that has metastasized into a vast and largely unchecked exercise of government secrecy, and the overzealous prosecution of those who breach it." ...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/opini ... ng.html?hp
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby bumper » July 31, 2013, 11:17 am

The good news is they didn't find him guilty of aiding the enemy. We talked about how things changed hasn't been that long ago that would have out him in front of a firing squad. I don't know about today.

The other thing I don't know about is if the UCMJ has a process for appeal If it does this not going away. The appeal process will start after the sentencing, which could be very severe.


We have talked about the public having a right to know.

How much information is safe too release to the public. Had it came out that Swartzkoff was doing a hail Mary. Anyone doubt had the news gotten that information that they would not have printed it.

What we haven't talked about is do we trust a 21 year old kid. to release particular information and withhold things that are harmful to the nation. Man I have 66 years of life experience and I can't do that. That is the other side of the coin.

Anyone remember how many counts he pleaded guilty before this?

What I see here is two young men that have ruined their lives. What have the accomplished?

Well lets see we have a public outcry. Will the NSA be reigned in maybe, for awhile.

Gave us something to talk about on the Forum.

all and all a sad state of affairs.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby arjay » July 31, 2013, 3:30 pm

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby bumper » July 31, 2013, 3:41 pm

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, that is another man I would not like to trust my nations national security to. I would venture to say that some of the leaks had no harm and others did. Well Snowden has his defense team. But, I doubt Assange will be showing up for moral support. Not a bad move on his part, sit it out in the comfort of an Embassy, let other take the real risk. Just my kind of guy.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby bumper » July 31, 2013, 4:01 pm

I was just curious what Obama record was in this arena. I think I have covered enough years to include his time in office. Seven filings if I got it right one guilty plea, not counting Mannings partilial guilty plea. One not guilty, one guilty and some pending.

Better you guys read the article yourselves as I can miss things:

http://www.propublica.org/special/seali ... rity-leaks



April 2010: Thomas Drake indicted

National Security Agency employee Thomas Drake was charged with violating the Espionage Act for retaining classified documents for “unauthorized disclosure.” He was suspected to have leaked information on the agency’s surveillance program TrailBlazer. The case against Drake began under the Bush administration - FBI agents raided his house in 2007.

Read the indictment.

May 2010: Shamai Leibowitz convicted

Shamai Leibowitz

FBI translator

Leibowitz, a linguist and translator for the FBI, pleaded guilty to leaking classified information to a blogger. He was sentenced to 20 months in prison. At the time of his sentencing, not even the judge knew exactly what he had leaked, though later disclosures indicated it was FBI wiretaps of conversations between Israeli diplomats about Iran.

Read the order.

June 2010: Bradley Manning arrested

Bradley Manning

Army intelligence analyst

Bradley Manning, a 22-year Army Private, was arrested after he told someone online that he was the source for Wikileaks’ biggest gets, including a quarter-million State Department cables.

It will be more almost two years before he is ultimately charged in a military court. In February 2013, he pleaded guilty to providing files to Wikileaks, but not to violating the Espionage Act and other charges. Courts have maintained an unprecedented level of secrecy over the case, withholding documents and allowing witnesses to testify in secret.

READ THE CHARGES AGAINST MANNING.

August 2010: Stephen Kim indicted

Stephen Kim

State Department analyst

Kim, an analyst working under contract with the State Department, was indicted for giving classified information to Fox News about North Korea. His case is still pending. In a July 2013 ruling in the case, a federal judge said the government did not need to show that the information leaked could have damaged national security – just that Kim knew it could and willfully leaked the information.

Read the INDICTMENT.

The Washington Post reported in May 2013 that Fox News journalist James Rosen was investigated in the Kim case. The Department seized Rosen’s phone records and emails, and tracked his “comings and goings from the State Department.” Rosen was not charged with a crime, but an FBI investigator wrote that there was evidence he was a “co-conspirator.”

READ THE AFFIDAVIT.

December 2010: Jeffrey Sterling indicted

Jeffrey Sterling

CIA officer

Sterling, a CIA officer, was charged with leaking information about the CIA’s efforts against Iran’s nuclear program. His case is still pending.

Read the indictment.

New York Times reporter James Risen was ordered to testify in Sterling’s trial. Prosecutors believed Kim had leaked material to Risen for his book, “State of War.” Risen fought the subpoena, arguing that it was his First Amendment right to protect his source’s confidentiality. In July 2013, Risen lost that fight, when a federal appeals court said there was no “reporters privilege” that could allow him not to testify.

Jun. 2011: Case against Thomas Drake dropped

Drake pled guilty to a minor charge, not under the Espionage Act, and served no prison time. The government had decided that they could not prosecute him without revealing details about the documents he supposedly leaked. Critics saw the government’s withdrawal as a sign that they had overreached in using the Espionage Act.

January 2012: John Kiriakou charged

John Kiriakou

former CIA officer

John Kiriakou was charged with leaking information about the interrogation of an Al Qaeda leader and disclosing the name of a CIA analyst involved. Kiriakou gave an interview on ABC News in 2007 detailing the Bush administration’s use of waterboarding in interrogating terrorist suspects.

Read the criminal complaint.

October 2012: John Kiriakou convicted

Kiriakou pleaded guilty to disclosing the name of a covert CIA officer. He was convicted of violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, the first under the law in 27 years. In January, Kiriakou was sentenced to 2 1/2 years in prison.

June 14, 2013: Edward Snowden Charged

Edward Snowden

Former NSA Contractor

Edward Snowden, who leaked documents about the NSA’s secret surveillance programs, was charged with theft of government property and two counts of disclosing information under the Espionage Act – charges which together carry a penalty of up to 30 years in prison.

SEE THE CRIMINAL COMPLAINT

July 30, 2013: Bradley Manning Convicted

A military tribunal judge found Manning not guilty of aiding the enemy – the most serious charge against him. He was found guilty of multiple counts under the Espionage Act and five counts of theft, among other charges. He could spend decades in prison.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Postby fdimike » July 31, 2013, 5:38 pm

Some presidents leave a legacy of seeking peace in the world and improving peoples lives. Others war, killing and destruction seem to be their primary accomplishment. Obama's legacy will be drones, broken bodies, paranoia, financial bailouts with taxpayer dollars, excessive secrecy and subsequent needless prosecution and an NSA surveillance program targeting our own citizens. Geez did I leave anything out? Quite a legacy. I wonder if he has a problem looking at himself in the mirror?
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