Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

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How do you view Snowden's actions in (further) exposing the spooks?

Hero - hopefully will find a happy home in a place with no extradition treaty with the US or ally.
58
57%
Traitor - should be strung up from the nearest tree.
28
28%
Other - can't make up my mind yet.
15
15%
 
Total votes: 101

Jello
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by Jello » July 31, 2013, 8:08 pm

Obama's war on whistle blowers from the Corbett report.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cessvYvMYio



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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by fdimike » July 31, 2013, 9:43 pm

Thanks Jello

What more can one say? As I said earlier what a wonderful legacy.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by LilRed » August 1, 2013, 7:03 am

Seems to me, President Obama got us out of Iraq (with more credibility than Nixon's exit from VN...); is getting us outta Afghanistan; is using the drones incredibly effectively; got national health care reform started; and has clearly stated we need to discuss "how much security for how much freedom"... Need I recite the rest of his many successes? NYSE at record highs; home prices rising; unemployment falling, etc...


The unbalanced right oughta make an attempt at balance. Everybody'd be happier.

OBAMA DA MAN.jpg

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by jackspratt » August 1, 2013, 9:29 am

More revelations from Snowden - and more to be concerned about.
XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'

• XKeyscore gives 'widest-reaching' collection of online data
• NSA analysts require no prior authorization for searches
• Sweeps up emails, social media activity and browsing history

A top secret National Security Agency program allows analysts to search with no prior authorization through vast databases containing emails, online chats and the browsing histories of millions of individuals, according to documents provided by whistleblower Edward Snowden...................

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/j ... nline-data
It seems that Congress is starting to emerge from it's deep hole, and sit up and take notice.

It would be nice to think they, and a deeply complicit president, would start to rein these cowboys (NSA etc etc) in.

And then the lackey countries (Oz, Canada, UK and NZ) who are part of the program may be forced to follow suit.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by Jello » August 1, 2013, 10:00 am

What we now know is only the tip of the. Iceberg.
From the young Turks report:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=rela ... nvXn2w_FvY
UFF DA!

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by fdimike » August 1, 2013, 12:02 pm

LilRed

Let's not even try to compare Iraq with Vietnam as there is no comparison at all. The losses on both side of that tragedy far exceed anything in Iraq and or Afghanistan.

Using drones effectively: I would say your terminology is a bit vague and subjective unless you feel that killing of hundreds of civilians is to be listed in the plus column. Of course you can always count their use in the US now.

Got national health care reform started: I would think you'll have to dig real deep there to see much success. Congress is also not very happy about the program. Personally I don't see a problem with health insurance for all. However, I haven't delved into all the nuts and bolts of the plan either. I'm told that it's a joke by those I've spoken with in the US.

Clearly stated we need to discuss how much security how much freedom: Only after Mr Snowden made clear just what the NSA was illegally doing. It's a shame he didn't use all that law school training to better use. Of course there were numerous other whistle blowers who preceeded Snowden. Let's not foget his promise (joke) of providing more protection for whistleblowers. I guess you can consider this a success if you feel that placing someone in solitary confinment for nearly a year protection. I guess you might say (tongue in cheek) that Obama is just a regular humanitarian.

Successes: falling unemlpoyment only if you don't look at all the data

http://stateofworkingamerica.org/charts ... mployment/

and only if you don't consider those who have given up looking. Not a very pretty record

Stock Market: Agree. But who benefits? Certainly not the regular "joe".

Defecit: Want to talk about this one? Trillions nice to know we are in debt up over our head. No problem we'll just print more money.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by bumper » August 1, 2013, 12:19 pm

Clearly stated we need to discuss how much security how much freedom
By Golly Mike we agree that is scary.
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? ver2 + NEW POLL

Post by bumper » August 1, 2013, 12:37 pm

Just following along.
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by fdimike » August 1, 2013, 12:38 pm

Ray

I think we agree on a lot of things although maybe not from the same perspective
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? ver2 + NEW POLL

Post by parrot » August 1, 2013, 1:10 pm

So much for the privacy of using a VPN:
"One example of how analysts might use the system is to search for whenever someone has started up a “virtual private network” in a particular country of interest; the networks are pipelines that add greater security to online communications. N.S.A. analysts are able to use the system to extract the activity retrospectively from “raw unselected bulk traffic,” the documents say, and then decrypt it to “discover the users.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/01/us/ns ... wanted=all

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by fdimike » August 1, 2013, 4:33 pm

It's just like having a big brother looking over your shoulder, a "friend" in need even if you don't need him. It gives me just sooooo many warm fuzzy feelings knowing that I'm never alone and that the US government is following me every step of the way. You know, sort of like George Orwell's 1984!
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by bumper » August 1, 2013, 5:07 pm

I wonder if they will miss me when I'm gone :lol:
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by jackspratt » August 1, 2013, 5:22 pm

bumper wrote:I wonder if they will miss me when I'm gone :lol:
Probably not ........... but we will. :D

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by parrot » August 1, 2013, 6:56 pm

A few more thoughts (FWTW) as the debate goes on:


I can't dispute the fact that some good has come out of Manning's and Snowden's actions. But the US, like virtually every other country, depends on secrecy in conducting diplomancy and defending itself in a dangerous world. The institutions that determine what should be kept secret and what should not are funded and overseen by the citizens' representatives in Congress and directed by an elected president. Should an individual be allowed to usurp a power that belongs to the American people?

Even Manning choose to accept the legal consequences of his actions by pleading guilty to a series of lesser charges.......while many of his supporters have continued to profess his innocence and hoist him on a pedestal as a hero.

Was it fair to release the names of Chinese academics and bloggers, known previously only by their screen names? Manning apparently believed so. Many other names of individuals who met with American diplomats or cooperated with American forces were included in the leaked documents. Did Manning put these people's lives in peril? Should he have the right to do that?


This might be a stretch, but let's go back about 40+years when Nixon and Kissinger began sending subtle overtures hinting at warmer relations to the Mao government in China. Kissinger flew on secret diplomatic missions to Bejing, unbeknownst to the American people. NSA knew. All reconnaissance missions against China came to a grinding halt whenever Kissinger was traveling to China, at least partly in fear that an international incident with one of those reconnaissance platforms would damage American attempts at improving relations.
Now, let's say that somewhere early on in Kissinger's diplomacy efforts, a guy like Manning or Snowden releases sensitive information that make the Chinese back out of the talks and revert to their hermit/closed society ways. How would history be different today.......did the improved relations between the US and China tip the cold war balance against Russia? Have improved relations with the US not demonstratively improved the lives of hundreds of millions of Chinese? Should one individual who has no insight into those secret negotiations, but has access to the information, be allowed to release that information and potentially affect the outcome? Imagine if the 1970's version of a person like Manning or Snowden had some preference for Taiwan over mainland China....maybe a relative or girlfriend from an RR fling or school book preferences for Chiang Kai-shek over Mao Zedong. If that individual believed that secret diplomacy efforts could harm US-Taiwan relations, would it be fair for that individual to release that information.....and thus possibly harm the outcome?

Had a 1970's version of Snowden/Manning regarding China occured, how would the American people have responded.....not knowing how things would actually turn out 40 years later? Would the American public have supported their action them because it appeared the US government was stabbing Taiwan in the back? Lots of people felt that way back in 1970.....as did many when Carter signed over the Panama Canal back to the Panamanians.

Finally, I can't buy the argument that the US Justice system is so corrupt that Snowden or Manning won't receive a fair shot. Manning is probably going to prison....perhaps for a long time. He understands that. Given the bigger public debate over the privacy matters uncovered in Snowden's case, I wouldn't be surprised if he went the way of Daniel Ellsberg.....and walked. But the more information he releases that does not pertain to US citizen privacy matters, the greater the chance he'll go to jail for a long time......if he's ever back on US soil.
More finally, at least in the case of Ellsberg, he released information related to a single cause. In the case of Snowden, he apparently wholesale copied classified information.....beyond that affecting US citizen privacy concerns. That information is now residing on a computer/thumbdrive sitting in an airport in Moscow. If he doesn't insert his thumbdrive up his backside every time he goes to sleep, I'd be concerned about that information falling into the wrong hands.

All in all a good debate.

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by RLTrader » August 1, 2013, 7:20 pm

It seems like someone else has left the US for his own safety, will guess that the NSA is all over this, so safe to post on HTTP :cry:

Jacob Appelbaum

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by jackspratt » August 1, 2013, 7:58 pm

Some good news:
Edward Snowden leaves airport, granted temporary asylum in Russia: lawyer

Fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden has left Moscow's airport where he has been holed up for over a month, his Russian lawyer has told state TV.

Snowden, who leaked details on the National Security Agency's secretive PRISM data and call-logging spy program has been granted temporary asylum for one year in Russia, his lawyer Anatoly Kucherena told Russia 24.

"Snowden has left Sheremetyevo airport," he said.

"He has just been given a certificate that he has been awarded temporary asylum in Russia for one year."

Mr Kucherena added that Snowden left the airport for an undisclosed secure location.

"I have just seen him off. He has left for a secure location. Security is a very serious matter for him," he said........

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-01/e ... er/4860072

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by fdimike » August 1, 2013, 9:19 pm

Parrot

Your points are interesting.

Lets take your first point:

"I can't dispute the fact that some good has come out of Manning's and Snowden's actions. But the US, like virtually every other country, depends on secrecy in conducting diplomancy and defending itself in a dangerous world. The institutions that determine what should be kept secret and what should not are funded and overseen by the citizens' representatives in Congress and directed by an elected president. Should an individual be allowed to usurp a power that belongs to the American people?"
I think your point can be easily reversed. What right does an elected president have to skew what congress has written into law (sec 215 Patriot Act) and then signed by the president? What right does an elected president have to simply ignore the protections afforded americans under the Bill of Rights, then skew the operation of a secret court (FISA Court) tasked to protect those rights in order to institute a huge domestic surveillance program? I think this all sort of reminds me of how Bush jr and Cheney developed the "evidence" to invade Iraq. You start with a given (I'm going to invade Iraq) and then fabricate/skew the evidence to back your action. I can still remember seeing Colin Powell presenting the"evidence" which I viewed as a joke lacking any credibility. Obama has done the same thing.

"Even Manning choose to accept the legal consequences of his actions by pleading guilty to a series of lesser charges.......while many of his supporters have continued to profess his innocence and hoist him on a pedestal as a hero."
No one as far as I know is professing his innonence. The arguement is that he acted as whistleblower to expose many of the wrongs of what was going on in Iraq. The abuse carried on in Abu Garib prison fell on the dhoulders of a sergeant as though this one person was acting on his own. No one else in a position authority was ever disciplined. The Apache helicopter crew and controllers in the video of the attack on the civilians and Reuters personnel were never disciplined for their actions. The video was released to Wikileaks afetr being covered up by the military. Somehow I just don't think that is right. That is just a couple of examples. There are far too many to get into here.

"This might be a stretch..." I would say so, considering you are trying to tie events from suposed damaged Chinese relations to the fall of the Soviet Union not to mention Taiwan which still sits in limbo if a whistleblower of the time released information a la Wikileaks. We certainly didn't solve anything regarding the PRC - Taiwan issue and it still festers today. Many do believe we should not have abandoned Taiwan as we did in favor of the PRC. I personally do not believe we achieved a thing and should have demanded a two state solution instead. However, that kind of a position takes courage and hard work and power(I'm not speaking of military power) some of which appeared to be missing from our diplomacy.
I believe returning the Panama Canal to Panama was the correct thing to do.

"... I can't buy the argument that the US Justice system is so corrupt that Snowden or Manning won't receive a fair shot." This is a very broad subject but let me try to narrow it down a bit. There has been a lot of attention of late towards sexual harrassment, sexual battery, sexual assaults and unwanted sexual advances etc in the US military. Many of the current trials as well as pending trials are in jeopardy or have been completely jeopardized by Mr Obama.

"Barack Obama may have prejudiced hundreds of military sexual assault trials after calling for those who commit sex offences in the US armed forces to be "prosecuted, stripped of their positions, court-martialed, fired, dishonourably discharged..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rials.html

This kind of behavior illustrates just how little common sense Obma has. Why is it damning? He is the commander in chief of the armed forces. I guarantee you he will apply similar pressure to a federal court.

When Manning was being held in solitary confinement (even murder suspects are not normally housed that way pending trial) Obama refused to intercede with the military that he commands. A member of Obama's administration at the time realized there was a problem and lost his job because he spoke out. The conditions were only reversed after a tremendous public outcry both at home and abroad. That's not what I would term leadership from our president. However, the term vindictive would fit right in place.

How many federal/state convictions are being overturned by tainted evidence presented by FBI "experts". How many other convictions are being overturned through DNA. The American justice system is hardly just. If it were, Obama would not be making history as the president who has sought prosecution of whistleblowers in unprecedented numbers based on a statute from 1917. This from a man who professed the need to protect whistleblowers. Manning's case is military but Snowden would face a federal criminal court with considerable pressure being applied from Obama for yet another conviction. The chances of Snowden being given a slap on the wrist are slim to none.

"More finally, at least in the case of Ellsberg, he released information related to a single cause. In the case of Snowden, he apparently wholesale copied classified information.....beyond that affecting US citizen privacy concerns."

"Apparently" is a really broad term sort of like the word "if". I don't think anybody at this point in time actually knows what he copied. However, I suspect that as congress gets their teeth into this pile of manure more damning evidence will be revealed regarding the "games" the NSA has been playing. Will changes occur? I certainly hope so.
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by RLTrader » August 2, 2013, 1:58 am

So you think it can't happen to you, right? Well be careful what you Google!

Here is an example of how the NSA spying on amerikans works.
large.jpg
Google 'Pressure Cookers' and 'Backpacks,' Get a Visit from the Stasi

Michele Catalano was looking for information online about pressure cookers. Her husband, in the same time frame, was Googling backpacks. Wednesday morning, six men from a joint terrorism task force showed up at their house to see if they were terrorists. Which prompts the question: How'd the government know what they were Googling?

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... hes/67864/


Best use DuckDuckGo!

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by fdimike » August 2, 2013, 9:11 am

First there was waterboarding in Thailand (oops that was a secret or maybe it was conducted at a secret site) no matter as the video evidence was destroyed despite a federal court order to preserve the evidence (so much for the rule of law) and now we have the NSA surveillance program, part of which is sitting right here in Thailand at another secret location. How exciting!!

http://www.bangkokpost.com/
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by bumper » August 2, 2013, 9:36 am

I pretty much have said about as much as I can. Pressure cooker, how were the Boston bombs made. What did they Google? Darn things come with instructions on how to use them. Is there more to that story that we don't know?

What did he Google, on his companies computer found after he was terminated.

On that computer, the employee searched the terms “pressure cooker bombs” and “backpack
I would sure want this guy checked out. It would appear his former employer did as well, since they contacted the Police.

There are things on Google that would concern me a if a nut bucket decided to do something with them. So they got checked out. If they had nothing, then nothing was going to happen You know sadly these days mundane things can be made to harm.

Lets take this a step further what was the bomb for the Fed building in Oklahoma City made from?

There are things that I'm curious about, But, I had been warned for sometime about this so Snowden really didn't change a thing for me. Going to another site I doubt that is going to do much good. We live in a really screwed up world and that is a fact.

How many Thai's have died in the South, teachers a target, that is some sick stuff. If the Thai Government can gain access to stop that I sure hope they use it.

I fully agree with Parrot, somethings are not for news releases. While Pvt Manning was having his day in the lime light. My Grandson was on his first or second tour in Afghanstan, soon to be deployed on his third. I sure as hell don't want his life put into more jeopardy, Because Pvt Manning or anyone like him wanted to do the right thing as he understood things.

Back to Snowden, good for him, he got into Russia on the condition he keep his mouth shut. I would venture to say that they are much more serious a bit that kind of thing then the U.S. and what rights does he have there. That was his first step towards a way out. Better keep an eye over his shoulder. It ain't over yet.

The other thing Snowden accomplished you can bet the NSA is circling the wagons now.

Spying has went on even before we became a Country. Where is the balance I really don't know, see I really don't have the knowledge to make that evaluation. Neither did Manning or Snowden. Any of you really think you do? ( not directed at anyone)

I don't think there are any simple answers to this. I do hope relations between Russia and the U.S. are harmed by this. That is a fine line to walk.

As much as I would like to believe it's a perfect world it is not.
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