Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

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How do you view Snowden's actions in (further) exposing the spooks?

Hero - hopefully will find a happy home in a place with no extradition treaty with the US or ally.
58
57%
Traitor - should be strung up from the nearest tree.
28
28%
Other - can't make up my mind yet.
15
15%
 
Total votes: 101

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by jackspratt » August 1, 2013, 7:58 pm

Some good news:
Edward Snowden leaves airport, granted temporary asylum in Russia: lawyer

Fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden has left Moscow's airport where he has been holed up for over a month, his Russian lawyer has told state TV.

Snowden, who leaked details on the National Security Agency's secretive PRISM data and call-logging spy program has been granted temporary asylum for one year in Russia, his lawyer Anatoly Kucherena told Russia 24.

"Snowden has left Sheremetyevo airport," he said.

"He has just been given a certificate that he has been awarded temporary asylum in Russia for one year."

Mr Kucherena added that Snowden left the airport for an undisclosed secure location.

"I have just seen him off. He has left for a secure location. Security is a very serious matter for him," he said........

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-08-01/e ... er/4860072



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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by fdimike » August 1, 2013, 9:19 pm

Parrot

Your points are interesting.

Lets take your first point:

"I can't dispute the fact that some good has come out of Manning's and Snowden's actions. But the US, like virtually every other country, depends on secrecy in conducting diplomancy and defending itself in a dangerous world. The institutions that determine what should be kept secret and what should not are funded and overseen by the citizens' representatives in Congress and directed by an elected president. Should an individual be allowed to usurp a power that belongs to the American people?"
I think your point can be easily reversed. What right does an elected president have to skew what congress has written into law (sec 215 Patriot Act) and then signed by the president? What right does an elected president have to simply ignore the protections afforded americans under the Bill of Rights, then skew the operation of a secret court (FISA Court) tasked to protect those rights in order to institute a huge domestic surveillance program? I think this all sort of reminds me of how Bush jr and Cheney developed the "evidence" to invade Iraq. You start with a given (I'm going to invade Iraq) and then fabricate/skew the evidence to back your action. I can still remember seeing Colin Powell presenting the"evidence" which I viewed as a joke lacking any credibility. Obama has done the same thing.

"Even Manning choose to accept the legal consequences of his actions by pleading guilty to a series of lesser charges.......while many of his supporters have continued to profess his innocence and hoist him on a pedestal as a hero."
No one as far as I know is professing his innonence. The arguement is that he acted as whistleblower to expose many of the wrongs of what was going on in Iraq. The abuse carried on in Abu Garib prison fell on the dhoulders of a sergeant as though this one person was acting on his own. No one else in a position authority was ever disciplined. The Apache helicopter crew and controllers in the video of the attack on the civilians and Reuters personnel were never disciplined for their actions. The video was released to Wikileaks afetr being covered up by the military. Somehow I just don't think that is right. That is just a couple of examples. There are far too many to get into here.

"This might be a stretch..." I would say so, considering you are trying to tie events from suposed damaged Chinese relations to the fall of the Soviet Union not to mention Taiwan which still sits in limbo if a whistleblower of the time released information a la Wikileaks. We certainly didn't solve anything regarding the PRC - Taiwan issue and it still festers today. Many do believe we should not have abandoned Taiwan as we did in favor of the PRC. I personally do not believe we achieved a thing and should have demanded a two state solution instead. However, that kind of a position takes courage and hard work and power(I'm not speaking of military power) some of which appeared to be missing from our diplomacy.
I believe returning the Panama Canal to Panama was the correct thing to do.

"... I can't buy the argument that the US Justice system is so corrupt that Snowden or Manning won't receive a fair shot." This is a very broad subject but let me try to narrow it down a bit. There has been a lot of attention of late towards sexual harrassment, sexual battery, sexual assaults and unwanted sexual advances etc in the US military. Many of the current trials as well as pending trials are in jeopardy or have been completely jeopardized by Mr Obama.

"Barack Obama may have prejudiced hundreds of military sexual assault trials after calling for those who commit sex offences in the US armed forces to be "prosecuted, stripped of their positions, court-martialed, fired, dishonourably discharged..." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rials.html

This kind of behavior illustrates just how little common sense Obma has. Why is it damning? He is the commander in chief of the armed forces. I guarantee you he will apply similar pressure to a federal court.

When Manning was being held in solitary confinement (even murder suspects are not normally housed that way pending trial) Obama refused to intercede with the military that he commands. A member of Obama's administration at the time realized there was a problem and lost his job because he spoke out. The conditions were only reversed after a tremendous public outcry both at home and abroad. That's not what I would term leadership from our president. However, the term vindictive would fit right in place.

How many federal/state convictions are being overturned by tainted evidence presented by FBI "experts". How many other convictions are being overturned through DNA. The American justice system is hardly just. If it were, Obama would not be making history as the president who has sought prosecution of whistleblowers in unprecedented numbers based on a statute from 1917. This from a man who professed the need to protect whistleblowers. Manning's case is military but Snowden would face a federal criminal court with considerable pressure being applied from Obama for yet another conviction. The chances of Snowden being given a slap on the wrist are slim to none.

"More finally, at least in the case of Ellsberg, he released information related to a single cause. In the case of Snowden, he apparently wholesale copied classified information.....beyond that affecting US citizen privacy concerns."

"Apparently" is a really broad term sort of like the word "if". I don't think anybody at this point in time actually knows what he copied. However, I suspect that as congress gets their teeth into this pile of manure more damning evidence will be revealed regarding the "games" the NSA has been playing. Will changes occur? I certainly hope so.
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by RLTrader » August 2, 2013, 1:58 am

So you think it can't happen to you, right? Well be careful what you Google!

Here is an example of how the NSA spying on amerikans works.
large.jpg
Google 'Pressure Cookers' and 'Backpacks,' Get a Visit from the Stasi

Michele Catalano was looking for information online about pressure cookers. Her husband, in the same time frame, was Googling backpacks. Wednesday morning, six men from a joint terrorism task force showed up at their house to see if they were terrorists. Which prompts the question: How'd the government know what they were Googling?

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national ... hes/67864/


Best use DuckDuckGo!

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by fdimike » August 2, 2013, 9:11 am

First there was waterboarding in Thailand (oops that was a secret or maybe it was conducted at a secret site) no matter as the video evidence was destroyed despite a federal court order to preserve the evidence (so much for the rule of law) and now we have the NSA surveillance program, part of which is sitting right here in Thailand at another secret location. How exciting!!

http://www.bangkokpost.com/
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by bumper » August 2, 2013, 9:36 am

I pretty much have said about as much as I can. Pressure cooker, how were the Boston bombs made. What did they Google? Darn things come with instructions on how to use them. Is there more to that story that we don't know?

What did he Google, on his companies computer found after he was terminated.

On that computer, the employee searched the terms “pressure cooker bombs” and “backpack
I would sure want this guy checked out. It would appear his former employer did as well, since they contacted the Police.

There are things on Google that would concern me a if a nut bucket decided to do something with them. So they got checked out. If they had nothing, then nothing was going to happen You know sadly these days mundane things can be made to harm.

Lets take this a step further what was the bomb for the Fed building in Oklahoma City made from?

There are things that I'm curious about, But, I had been warned for sometime about this so Snowden really didn't change a thing for me. Going to another site I doubt that is going to do much good. We live in a really screwed up world and that is a fact.

How many Thai's have died in the South, teachers a target, that is some sick stuff. If the Thai Government can gain access to stop that I sure hope they use it.

I fully agree with Parrot, somethings are not for news releases. While Pvt Manning was having his day in the lime light. My Grandson was on his first or second tour in Afghanstan, soon to be deployed on his third. I sure as hell don't want his life put into more jeopardy, Because Pvt Manning or anyone like him wanted to do the right thing as he understood things.

Back to Snowden, good for him, he got into Russia on the condition he keep his mouth shut. I would venture to say that they are much more serious a bit that kind of thing then the U.S. and what rights does he have there. That was his first step towards a way out. Better keep an eye over his shoulder. It ain't over yet.

The other thing Snowden accomplished you can bet the NSA is circling the wagons now.

Spying has went on even before we became a Country. Where is the balance I really don't know, see I really don't have the knowledge to make that evaluation. Neither did Manning or Snowden. Any of you really think you do? ( not directed at anyone)

I don't think there are any simple answers to this. I do hope relations between Russia and the U.S. are harmed by this. That is a fine line to walk.

As much as I would like to believe it's a perfect world it is not.
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by bumper » August 2, 2013, 4:17 pm

Interesting surprising no. It would appear that the British newspaper The Guardian, was more careful about what they released then Snowden. I'm grateful for that. It is enough to know it exists. It would also appear that the U.S. does share some information with other countries. As I said hope it helps Thailand in the South. There is a lot of play on water boarding that is a part of survival training for U.S. military flight crews. Doesn't sound like much fun and the guys that I knew who had experienced said it was very frightening. But, they were still around to tell me about it. By the way that was at least 15 years ago.

I got out of the Air Force reserve before Kuwait.

For those of you who have never experienced it being in Jail is no cake walk. I did at a Watch Commander in a Jail. Imagine for just one min. not being able to open a door and walk into a another room. Some of the other guests with you a can be very violent people and will use that to their advantage. You say anything to authorites about the extortion Your a snitch that makes you a target for sure. That alone is cruel punishment. But something has to exist doesn't it.

So we have to function in a really screwed up world and hopefully with some measure of security. So it still break down to how much information do our Intelligence agencies need. I'm still not qualified to answer that question.

News > Local News
NSA internet-snooping program using Thailand

Published: 2 Aug 2013 at 00.15
Online news: Local News

The US National Security Agency uses computer servers in Thailand to help run a massive networked collection of information about internet users, and to store and analyse the data.

This is one of a 32-slide presentation taken from secret NSA servers by the fugitive Edward Snowden and published Thursday in the British newspaper The Guardian.

Revelations about operation XKeyscore came Thursday from Edward Snowden, America's most-wanted fugitive. Russia granted Mr Snowden a one-year amnesty, and he finally left the Moscow airport.

According to secret information leaked by Mr Snowden through The Guardian newspaper, XKeyscore is a massive programme that sweeps up email, social media activity and all browsing history.

The data, according to NSA slides detailing the programme, is analysed, sifted and stored on servers around the world - more than 700 servers at approximately 150 sites, as the "top secret" slide states.

A small-scale world map locates the sites with the use of red dots (see slide, above). There are three dots, which may also cover Myanmar, Vietnam or Cambodia. But at least one of the dots sits atop the image of Thailand.

While locating NSA spy technology in Thailand is unsurprising, few details are known. The servers would have to be large computer arrays by definition, but they could be anywhere, from the US Embassy to almost any office building in Bangkok or up-country.

The NSA has a long history of using Thailand in its long-range interception programmes. In the Vietnam war era, the NSA was the agency behind the huge electronic Ramasun spy station south of Udorn Thani.

The secret surveillance system known as XKeyscore, revealed by Mr Snowden and The Guardian on Thursday, allows US intelligence to monitor "nearly everything a typical user does on the Internet," according to the leaked documents.

Citing classified documents provided by the fugitive, the British daily said the programme was the most wide-reaching operated by the NSA.

Russia on Thursday granted Mr Snowden temporary asylum and let him leave the Moscow airport where he had been staying for almost five weeks.

Mr Snowden left Sheremetyevo airport for an undisclosed destination, his Russian lawyer Anataloy Kucherena said in televised comments at the airport.

He said that Russian authorities had granted Snowden temporary asylum for one year. TV footage showed Kucherena holding up a copy of a Russian refugee ID with Snowden's photo, name, and an expiry date of July 31, 2014.

The lawyer explained that Mr Snowden's location would not be revealed because of safety concerns. "He is one of the world's most-sought persons," he said. Kucherena said Snowden had left the airport in a taxi.


( this is secret information, hey I would like to know where he is that OK and who determines it)

The Guardian said the existence of XKeyscore proves the truth of Snowden's earlier claim, denied by some US officials, that before he left the NSA he could "wiretap anyone, from you or your accountant, to a federal judge or even the president, if I had a personal email."

The White House insisted, however, that access to such tools is only available to those who are assigned to use them and that multiple "checks and balances" are in place to prevent abuse.


(Well it got abused now)

"As we've explained and the intelligence community has explained, allegations of widespread, unchecked analyst access to NSA... data are false," White House spokesman Jay Carney said.

The NSA on Thursday (Thailand time) also refuted as false "the implication" that its information collection is "arbitrary and unconstrained."

On its website, The Guardian published a batch of slides from what appears to be an internal US intelligence training briefing laying out the capabilities of the XKeyscore program.

The paper had blacked out four of the 32 slides because "they reveal details of specific NSA operations," but the remainder of the document lays out the operation of the programme in detail.

The slides are marked "Top Secret" and restricted to authorised personnel from the United States, Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. They were produced in 2007 and not due to be declassified until 2032.

According to the slides, XKeyscore allows US spies to monitor in real time the emails, web browsing, Internet searches, social media use and virtually all online activity of a target.

The system's computer infrastructure is based on a "massive distributed Linux cluster" and has "over 500" servers distributed around the world, including Thailand.

A map included in the briefing suggests that these servers are located on every continent, on the territory of US allies and of rivals like Russia, China and Venezuela.

Where XKeyscore appears to differ from other US surveillance programs that have already been revealed is that it can index and make searchable virtually any online activity.

"No other system performs this on raw unselected bulk traffic," the document boasts.

XKeyscore does not require an intelligence analyst to have a "strong selector" such as an email address to find a target - agents can work back from a general search to find an individual.

The examples it gives are if someone is using an unusual language for his area, such as German in Pakistan, or using Google Maps to scout targets for attack.

The document boasts that XKeyscore has allowed US agents to capture "over 300 terrorists" but pages that apparently relate to specific operations have been redacted by The Guardian.


( Does the NSA need to be able to do this is there another way)

The slides also say that XKeyscore is being updated to make it more powerful and faster and to broaden the range of data it can search to include, for example, the EXIF data embedded in digital photographs.

The Guardian interviewed Mr Snowden in June, when he was in Hong Kong after fleeing his job at the NSA in Hawaii carrying a trove of top secret files.

The paper did not say why it had not published details of XKeyscore in June, when it revealed the existence of a less capable US surveillance system known as Prism.

But the leak coincided with a hearing of the US Senate judiciary committee at which top intelligence officials are to be grilled by lawmakers concerned that spy agencies have exceeded the law.

The NSA in its statement acknowledged the existence of XKeyscore for the sake of clarification and said it "is used as part of NSA's lawful foreign signals intelligence collection system."

"Public release of this classified material about NSA collection systems, without context, does nothing more than jeopardize sources and methods, and further confuse a very important issue for the country," it added.

It is illegal in the United States for intelligence agencies to monitor US citizens without a court order, but Snowden's leaks have shown that Americans are regularly caught up in monitoring sweeps.

( I think a bigger question is it used against them )

The revelations have also embarrassed Washington abroad, where some have been shocked by the extent of US internet surveillance.
So guys what do we need and don't ?

Maybe that would make for a in depth discussion. ;)
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by fdimike » August 2, 2013, 4:26 pm

As far as I'm concerned there is a credibility issue here and the US goverment seems to be repeatedly coming up short. Translated? I find the US stand to be less than credible.
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by bumper » August 2, 2013, 4:30 pm

Ah come on Mike you knew that already ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by fdimike » August 2, 2013, 4:38 pm

OK you're right Ray. But you've got to admit it's just not the right way to steer the boat. Lies, lies & more lies will it ever stop? It's always to point your finger at "Tricky Dick" but It sure does appear like Obama has fallen into the same pattern.
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Post by fdimike » August 2, 2013, 4:40 pm

correction: It's always easy to point your finger at "Tricky Dick" as being the worst of the worst but...
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by bumper » August 2, 2013, 7:07 pm

No one has worked in Government doesn't see this kind of stuff in one form or another. Who knows maybe things will get better, or we just won't know about them. I expect a pretty good dog and pony show over this. Then it will be back to business as usual. Heaven only knows what this is going to cost in new equipment and programs. But, on the bright side another job or two.
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by parrot » August 2, 2013, 7:17 pm

fdimike wrote:First there was waterboarding in Thailand (oops that was a secret or maybe it was conducted at a secret site) no matter as the video evidence was destroyed despite a federal court order to preserve the evidence (so much for the rule of law) and now we have the NSA surveillance program, part of which is sitting right here in Thailand at another secret location. How exciting!!

http://www.bangkokpost.com/

What's the surprise? Surely you don't think our embassies are where they are to assist expats with income letters and passport renewals!

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by RLTrader » August 2, 2013, 7:35 pm

bumper wrote:I pretty much have said about as much as I can. Pressure cooker, how were the Boston bombs made. What did they Google? Darn things come with instructions on how to use them. Is there more to that story that we don't know?
So you didn't click on the links in the story, if you had you would have gotten this link, the source of the story.

https://medium.com/something-like-falling/2e7d13e54724

Since I posted the local Stasi PR guy has said someone was turned-in by x employer. But too me it does not ad up. I am sure all 3 did work at the same place.

Not young flakes with a 20 year old son, her story all adds up, she search for a Pressure Cooker to cook lentils, husband was looking for backpacks, and son clicked on a link from CNN on how to .....

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Post by RLTrader » August 2, 2013, 7:51 pm

fdimike wrote:OK you're right Ray. But you've got to admit it's just not the right way to steer the boat. Lies, lies & more lies will it ever stop? It's always to point your finger at "Tricky Dick" but It sure does appear like Obama has fallen into the same pattern.
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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by parrot » August 2, 2013, 7:58 pm

RLTrader wrote:
bumper wrote:I pretty much have said about as much as I can. Pressure cooker, how were the Boston bombs made. What did they Google? Darn things come with instructions on how to use them. Is there more to that story that we don't know?
So you didn't click on the links in the story, if you had you would have gotten this link, the source of the story.

https://medium.com/something-like-falling/2e7d13e54724

Since I posted the local Stasi PR guy has said someone was turned-in by x employer. But too me it does not ad up. I am sure all 3 did work at the same place.

Not young flakes with a 20 year old son, her story all adds up, she search for a Pressure Cooker to cook lentils, husband was looking for backpacks, and son clicked on a link from CNN on how to .....

It adds up to me....from the start, I suspected there was more to the story....as is often the case when people are trying to make 2+2=5.

Update: It was a jumpy employer, not a jumpy neighbor. The Suffolk County Police Department said in a statement:

Suffolk County Criminal Intelligence Detectives received a tip from a Bay Shore based computer company regarding suspicious computer searches conducted by a recently released employee. The former employee’s computer searches took place on this employee’s workplace computer. On that computer, the employee searched the terms “pressure cooker bombs” and “backpacks.”

Catalano confirmed that version of events to TechCrunch.

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by RLTrader » August 2, 2013, 8:12 pm

parrot wrote:
Catalano confirmed that version of events to TechCrunch.
and the link to
TechCrunch
?

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by RLTrader » August 2, 2013, 8:36 pm

The latest on this story
They’re passing this burning coal around so fast it’s giving me a headache, which is one reason why I believe every word Michele Catalano has written about this shocking home invasion by government agents.
http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2013 ... keyscored/

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Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

Post by jackspratt » August 2, 2013, 8:49 pm

I am not sure where the truth lays in the story about the Catalanos, but I did enjoy this quote from RLT's link:
Gee, how come Snowden didn’t go to a “free” country, you know, just like America? Instead, he’s gone to Russia, where the secret police are watching you 24/7 and the cops can burst into your home without a warrant at any time.


Perhaps it will answer (or at least pose) a few questions for those reactive posters who accuse Snowden of cowardice, or avarice. :-k

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Post by parrot » August 2, 2013, 8:55 pm

RLTrader wrote:
parrot wrote:
Catalano confirmed that version of events to TechCrunch.
and the link to
TechCrunch
?

Sorry about that.... http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/01/employ ... ot-google/

I'll be surprised if no one raises the issue of snooping employers/neighbors/acquaintances who tip off police to suspicious activity.

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Post by RLTrader » August 2, 2013, 9:15 pm

parrot wrote:
RLTrader wrote:
parrot wrote:
Catalano confirmed that version of events to TechCrunch.
and the link to
TechCrunch
?

Sorry about that.... http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/01/employ ... ot-google/

I'll be surprised if no one raises the issue of snooping employers/neighbors/acquaintances who tip off police to suspicious activity.
Already saw that dribble, just didn't see what you seem to see.

Also the above (a page back) link just noticed, has already an update covering this.
> https://medium.com/something-like-falling/2e7d13e54724

but I will place more value in Justin Raimondo

> http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2013 ... keyscored/

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