Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

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How do you view Snowden's actions in (further) exposing the spooks?

Hero - hopefully will find a happy home in a place with no extradition treaty with the US or ally.
58
57%
Traitor - should be strung up from the nearest tree.
28
28%
Other - can't make up my mind yet.
15
15%
 
Total votes: 101

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by fdimike » July 29, 2013, 4:27 pm

Never happen. Obama doesn't have the courage to do what is right, only what is politically popular to the neocons and those who see a terrorist under every rock.


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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by fdimike » July 29, 2013, 9:14 pm

Here's an interesting report from todays Washington Post. It's informative reading for anyone who questioned Mr Snowden's actions of releasing information about the NSA surveillance programs to the press instead of going to congress.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... ml?hpid=z3
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by RLTrader » July 29, 2013, 9:36 pm

fdimike wrote:Never happen. Obama doesn't have the courage to do what is right, only what is politically popular to the neocons and those who see a terrorist under every rock.
Just a happy read, to see his father (X coast guard, I think) supports his son. I would expect that our constitutional president will never see the letter, well except if he caught it on the internet, well that's supposing he can get around the blocks, which I doubt. Remind me the next time a constitutional lawyer runs for president.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by RLTrader » July 29, 2013, 9:54 pm

fdimike wrote:Here's an interesting report from todays Washington Post. It's informative reading for anyone who questioned Mr Snowden's actions of releasing information about the NSA surveillance programs to the press instead of going to congress.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... ml?hpid=z3
Ya, had saw that, but I have a problem with his NON Heroism, but it does give him the opportunity to ask the right questions, and get people to lie under oath. :D

Hope you saw this open letter to Mr Snowden. Dam hard to now find!

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinio ... 52284.html

but it still works

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by fdimike » July 29, 2013, 10:06 pm

Yes saw the letter on AJ on line and also via Tom Dispatch - http://www.tomdispatch.com/

If you look into the author's background you'll learn she went back to school to obtain her Masters Degree in International Journalism. She writes extremely well.

I think he did what he could to alert the American people without putting himself in jeopardy with Obama and administration with the word secret as its middle name.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by jackspratt » July 29, 2013, 10:20 pm

fdimike wrote:Here's an interesting report from todays Washington Post. It's informative reading for anyone who questioned Mr Snowden's actions of releasing information about the NSA surveillance programs to the press instead of going to congress.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/ ... ml?hpid=z3
Really sad, isn't it.

Handcuff the lawmakers who are (correctly) crying foul, and then besmirch their reputations when they try to do the right thing.

This was all set up by Cheney and Rumsfeld (with the compliance of a dumb president) 12 years ago. Unfortunately, the guy currently occupying the big seat has neither the will nor the moral fortitude to change the system.

A pox on all of them - and their lapdog supporters in other western (supposed) democracies.

The west really does need an equivalent of the Arab Spring, to re-assert the rights of the people to their privacy. At the moment, the extremists are winning, and the spooks and FBI-types are using it to their own advantage.

Perhaps it needs a couple of drone-delivered missiles into the heart of Langley and Fort Meade to get things back on an even keel. =D>

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by RLTrader » July 29, 2013, 10:25 pm

OFF Topic but
Breaking News "Peace in the ME", says Kerry, only thing missing is a banner.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by fdimike » July 29, 2013, 10:29 pm

JS

I couldn't have said it better myself. More interesting reading here: http://www.tomdispatch.com/ about a former CIA station chief and Mr Snowden
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by FrazeeDK » July 30, 2013, 7:58 am

equating the U.S. with the decades of Mubarak... No comparison there..... Raining down drone missiles on Meade and Langley??? What???? Yeah, I know, figuratively speaking right?
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by bumper » July 30, 2013, 11:02 am

I have to admit my thought process in this has been moved a bit.

But, this is where it goes back to the original thought. This guy is Political hot spud. There is little doubt in my mind that he would get a fair trial in the current atmosphire. At worst he is facing a criminal complaint on releasing the information, not treason.

Based on what I see here, assuming we are a cross section. Would twelve jurors find him guilty I doubt it. His best course of action is return, with bail arranged before hand and fight this. Other have won in the past.

If he doesn't do that, he will be looking over his shoulder for the remainder of his life. A prison in itself.

Our is there something we don't know?

It would not be the cost of an attorney ACLU would take this in a heart beat.

Torture no way it would make a press field day.

Prearranged bail happens all the time. could the money be posted I believe so, internet appeal would cover that quickly.

Does he really want to go to a different Country, with different laws, with no possibility leaving I wouldn't want to do that. out of the frying pan into the fire, when his usefulness runs out.

He has the deck stacked in his favor, so why isn't he making the move? Who gives a damn what Polosi says that is the same person that wanted any returning VET the right to own firearms.

The CIA guy no surprise there.

The letter was excellent
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by parrot » July 30, 2013, 11:19 am

Our daughter works in an environment surrounded by high tech. She's nice enough to forward some of the company's correspondence about the direction it's headed....global, digital and not looking back. The CEO of the company makes it pretty plain that you're either going in that direction, or you're a dinosaur, soon to be extinct (and out of a job).

The article below is right up our daughter's alley......anything to make her life easier is good....anything that makes it more difficult is bad. She too is concerned about privacy, but in the bigger scheme of things, she realizes that you either embrace the direction of 24hour on-line, social networking (to a degree), at your call anywhere/anytime.....or you're going to find yourself out of a lucrative job environment. She couldn't imagine hiring anyone in her office that isn't 100% married to advances in technology.
It may not be for everyone (social networking, video phone calls....not my bag)......but I'd dare say for the vast majority of younger people, it's in their blood and part of their DNA.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/30/techn ... o.html?hpw

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by bumper » July 30, 2013, 12:01 pm

Excellent article. With Snowdens profession he had to know these things. It would seem a dime a dozen hacker could find out a lot about you, in key areas. This is not coming from the Government. But, private companies.

Begs one to ask why did he do it?
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by jimboLV » July 30, 2013, 1:07 pm

Why did he do it? Possibly he was being paid to do it by a foreign country, although that is doubtful.

In my opinion he is an attention w hore who seriously miscalculated the reaction from the President and other leaders. He probably expected to be treated like a hero. Turns out he was partially correct, as a number of folks (even some that should know better) are hailing him as a hero.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by bumper » July 30, 2013, 3:31 pm

That is a good possibility, maybe laying the ground work for a book?

He sure gets enough media attention. More then he could buy.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by fdimike » July 30, 2013, 5:00 pm

"There is little doubt in my mind that he would get a fair trial in the current atmosphire. At worst he is facing a criminal complaint on releasing the information, not treason."
You're living in a dream world if you really think this guy could get a fair trial. This is a president and administration with no regard for morals or ethics. The only word they seem to understand is vindictive. There is zero chance that Snowden would be granted bail either and would probably be looking at the inside of a cell in solitary just like Manning. A slap on the wrist (releasing information)? Come on now this is a president/administration which coerces other countries to deny the Bolivian president's plane overflight rights forcing it to land in Austria to refuel because someone in wherever said Snowden was on board. Gosh what happened to diplomatic immunity. I guess it only applies to the biggest bully on the block.


"It would not be the cost of an attorney ACLU would take this in a heart beat." the ACLU does not represent people in criminal cases to the best of my knowledge. The Federal Public Defender's Office or an appointed attorney would have to handle this.


"Torture no way it would make a press field day." Depends on your definition of torture. Ours is pretty much anything goes. Manning was kept in solitary for 11 months while Obama told everyone that he was not being mistreated. He was only moved out of solitary following a significant public outcry. Solitary confinement especially long periods is torture in my book.

"Prearranged bail happens all the time. could the money be posted I believe so, internet appeal would cover that quickly."
The government would most likely shut down any sites collecting money for Snowden's defense or at least suggest to the internet company that they refuse to allow collecting money for this cause just like they did with Assange.

Prearranged bail? Maybe for a misdemeanor but certainly not for someone facing these kinds of supposed federal felony charges. It would take a mighty brave magistrate judge to grant him bail. I would suggest that the government would appeal the bail decision to the district judge handling the case who would most likely reverse the magistrate.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by bumper » July 30, 2013, 5:24 pm

I think we are back agree to disagree.

ACLU would take this in the Constutional basis, Snowden would be the vehicle for that.

I don't think any Government looking a for party reelection, would want to get their hand in the cookie jar again over something like this.

Just trials are jury trials by your peers sometimes they work sometimes they don't, that is the chance we all take in our system.

Yes you can have prearranged bail in felony cases when you surrender. You sure are not going to get it by fleeing.

CNN-5 hours ago
Whether Manning is a whistle-blower or a traitor who betrayed his country has been hotly ( Due for verdict soon)

Manning is a Military Soldier and subject to the rules of the UMCJ rules much harsher then civil laws.

So lets at least try to keep apples to apples.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by fdimike » July 30, 2013, 5:30 pm

Parrot

Your points are well taken. However, its not technology which is at fault here. Technology is a wonderful tool when used wisely. Afterall it got us to the moon and back, developed great medical advances which now includes the 3D printing of human tissue. It is those who have tried to master it and apply it in an illegal manner which is what the NSA has done with the blessing of Mr Obama. That's what we're talking about here. We have a Bill of Rights for a reason with lots of people giving their life to help defend and preserve it and the Constitution. The NSA along with the Obama administration has gone way beyond the intent and meaning of section 215 of the Patriot Act which applies to this surveillance program, not to mention the 4th, 5th & 6th Amendments to the Constitution. The FISA court has compounded it all by rubber stamping the program giving it some sort of validity. How exciting we now have two supreme courts (one in public and one secret) interpeting the constitutionality of a program. Even those in congress realize there is a problem and are working to change/constrain it all.

I would find another employer if it meant that I would have to use the likes of Facebook, Twitter and the like.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by bumper » July 30, 2013, 5:36 pm

This looks like an orange to me:
Whistle-blower or traitor? Bradley Manning to learn fate
By CNN Staff
July 30, 2013 -- Updated 1024 GMT (1824 HKT)
Watch this video
Assange: 'Bradley Manning is a hero'
STORY HIGHLIGHTS

WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange calls Bradley Manning a hero
If found guilty of aiding the enemy, Manning could be sentenced to life in prison
He is accused of releasing 750,000 pages of classified documents and videos

(CNN) -- After spending three years in custody, the man accused of the largest leak of classified information in U.S. history will learn Tuesday whether he has been found guilty of aiding the enemy.

A verdict from the judge in the court-martial of Pfc. Bradley Manning will be announced at 1 p.m. ET Tuesday, according to a spokeswoman for the military district of Washington.

If found guilty on the aiding the enemy charge, Manning could be sentenced to life in prison. He has pleaded guilty to nearly a dozen lesser charges that carry a sentence of up to 20 years behind bars.

Whether Manning is a whistle-blower or a traitor who betrayed his country has been hotly debated.

Read more: What do Manning's actions mean? Depends who is talking
Snowden and Manning: Accused leakers
New documentary examines WikiLeaks
Sharing secrets: U.S. intelligence leaks Sharing secrets: U.S. intelligence leaks
Notable leakers and whistleblowers Notable leakers and whistleblowers

Authorities have accused Manning of delivering three quarters of a million pages of classified documents and videos to the secret-sharing site WikiLeaks, which has never confirmed the soldier was the source of its information. The material covered numerous aspects of U.S. military strategy in Iraq, gave what some called a ground view of events in the Afghanistan war and revealed the inner workings of U.S. State Department diplomacy in leaked cables.

When he entered his guilty pleas on the lesser charges earlier this year, Manning spent more than an hour in court reading a statement about why he leaked the information.

He said the information he passed on "upset" or "disturbed" him, but there was nothing he thought would harm the United States if it became public. Manning said he thought the documents were old and the situations they referred to had changed or ended.

"I believed if the public was aware of the data, it would start a public debate of the wars," he said during his court-martial. He said he was "depressed about the situation there," meaning Iraq, where he was stationed as an intelligence analyst.

He first tried to give the information to The Washington Post, but a reporter there didn't seem like she took him seriously, he said. He left a voice mail for the New York Times and sent an e-mail to the newspaper but, he claims, he didn't hear back. So he decided to give the information to WikiLeaks.

After WikiLeaks published a trove of documents related to the Afghanistan war in 2010, the site became an international sensation, as did its chief, Julian Assange.

"We call those types of people that are willing to risk ... being a martyr for all the rest of us, we call those people heroes," Assange told CNN's Jake Tapper. "Bradley Manning is a hero."

Assange described the case against Manning, specifically the aiding the enemy charge, as a serious attack against investigative journalism.

"It will be the end, essentially, of national security journalism in the United States," he said on the eve of the verdict.

Assange spoke from the Ecuadorean Embassy in London. He sought refuge there to avoid extradition to Sweden, where he is wanted for questioning over allegations of sex crimes. Assange has said he thinks the claims against him are Washington's way of getting him arrested so that he can be extradited to the United States to face charges.

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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by fdimike » July 30, 2013, 5:44 pm

Bumper

"Yes you can have prearranged bail in felony cases when you surrender. You sure are not going to get it by fleeing."

Please provide a cite. This is a federal felony case. The rules are sinificantly different from the state courts. Once again I'll use Manning as an example of not being granted bail. Snowden will be in the same position. There are certainly instance where the US attorney on the case will not oppose bail but they are few and far between. I can guarantee you that he would never be granted bail. The first thing the US Attorney would tell the court is he a flight risk.

Let me state again that the ACLU does not accept criminal cases. They will lobby the courts on your behalf regarding your constitutional rights but will not defend you. They file legal briefs with the courts in support of a myriad of causes but they do not defend anyone in federal criminal court accused of a crime.
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NEW POLL Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor?

Post by bumper » July 30, 2013, 6:11 pm

Mike I will believe what I believe and you can believe what you do. In the end what does it matter :lol: . Did Elsberg get bail? Was he tortured. I fully agree that solitary confinement for extended times a akin to torture. As a matter fact it was the ultimate punishment in the County Jail where I was a Watch Commander. Then only time I recall using it was when we had someone was on suicide watch.

We are talking a civilian system here. Not UCMJ system I'm sure you know they are different.

Tell you what you go look for the case law. That's work I'm retired ;) :lol:
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