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ClimateGate busts things wide open

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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby JimboPSM » March 6, 2010, 9:50 pm

WBU ALUM wrote:Simon Carr: Scientist may find himself a convenient sacrificial lamb
........... "I'm a scientist," Labour's Graham Stringer said. "If I want to check your results, I can't."

Dr Jones fiddled with that allegation (he's not without Westminster talent) but the committee didn't look persuaded. His reply to a request for information was quoted: "Why should I make data available to you when you only want to find something wrong with it?" Stringer concluded: "That is unscientific!"

More interesting by the day.

If I was looking for someone credible to support an argument, Graham Stringer would be one of those well down at the bottom of the list.

While Graham Stringer does have a degree in chemistry and has worked in the plastics industry it is a stretch for him to claim he is a scientist as most of his life has actually been in politics; he is the former Labour (socialist) leader of (a very left wing) Manchester City Council and is currently the Labour (socialist) Member of Parliament for Blackley (where I was actually born and have more than a passing interest).

Personally I would not trust him to give the right time of day without independent verification – as an aside, last year he was a dyslexia sceptic, a condition he labelled as a “cruel fiction”

While It does not necessarily mean that he is wrong, he is another like Monckton with a history of wacky pronouncements which causes one to seriously question the credibility of anything they now say (or in this case the cause of the sceptics).

The clearest analysis of “Climategate” I have seen (so far) was an article on Bloomberg last December:
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby WBU ALUM » March 6, 2010, 10:25 pm

So even though his 'unscientific' comment is true and that scientists' data should be subject to scrutiny, it should be discounted because in one person's opinion (or maybe many people), Stringer is unreliable. So what's he doing on the committee?

I always have to chuckle at the attacks on the individual or the publication even though the statements made are valid. Let's pull up something from the past that wasn't valid to invalidate a truth today.

Okay. Let's apply that equally.

Since Al Gore thinks he helped to develop/invent the Internet, he is unreliable, too. There. We've eliminated an unreliable person on both sides. How ridiculous.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby Texpat » March 6, 2010, 10:44 pm

WBU ALUM wrote:I always have to chuckle at the attacks on the individual or the publication even though the statements made are valid. ...
How ridiculous.


See: Daily Mail. Washington Post, Fox News

I agree, ridiculous. Refute facts, not the source.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby jackspratt » March 6, 2010, 11:24 pm

Given that Gore never said that he helped "invent" or "develop" the internet, does it cast doubts on the credibility of those who are willing to propagate this falsehood? :-k

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.asp
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby rick » March 6, 2010, 11:52 pm

Texpat wrote:
WBU ALUM wrote:I always have to chuckle at the attacks on the individual or the publication even though the statements made are valid. ...
How ridiculous.


See: Daily Mail. Washington Post, Fox News

I agree, ridiculous. Refute facts, not the source.


Hmm 'Daily Mail' and 'Fox News' reputable sources... well i would be dubious on the political front, but lets give it a try on global warming....

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... tists.html

Seems factual, have no problems with it.

and

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03 ... itics%2529

Not much science in this one, the dispute is about energy producing states loosing money if new legislation produced to protect health and the environment. Hmm .... environment versus oil and coal companies profits, Guess we know what is at issue here - not the environment, just money. But probably reported the division correctly!
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby JimboPSM » March 7, 2010, 8:27 am

Texpat wrote:
WBU ALUM wrote:I always have to chuckle at the attacks on the individual or the publication even though the statements made are valid. ...
How ridiculous.


See: Daily Mail. Washington Post, Fox News

I agree, ridiculous. Refute facts, not the source.

What I wrote was to add some factual context (history, background and qualifications) from my own knowledge of Graham Stringer based on having been born and lived in Manchester for well over forty years (something I suspect few other forum readers have).

I said quite clearly:
While It does not necessarily mean that he is wrong, he is another like Monckton with a history of wacky pronouncements which causes one to seriously question the credibility of anything they now say (or in this case the cause of the sceptics).
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby ronan01 » March 7, 2010, 8:39 am

BobHelm wrote:Yes great quotes ronan01, I have seen them 'doing the rounds' on the anti global warming sites.

Sadly, to someone like me they do a great dis-service to any arguments that side of the fence wish to give to the general public. .......
Paul Ehrlich was a biologist who believed that a massive growth in world population would overwhelm it. Billions, he predicted would die of starvation.
Nothing to do with if temperatures went up or down or sideways. :D :D .
However, surprisingly some right wing organizations are still supporting Ehrlich's claims, although usually they believe it only applies to people of certain religious views. .....This was all about pollution, nothing to do with temperature..


Its a bit twee to state that its all about pollution and nothing to do with AGW ... misleading in fact. His book "The Population Bom 1968" is riddled with reference to "Global Warming".

His later book "The Population Expolosion 1990" has the fllowing on the front cover - "From global warming to rain forest destruction, famine, and air and water pollution - why overpopulation is our #1 environmental problem".

This book is also riddled with reference to AGW, greenhouse gases, CO2 and the usual predictions of disaster.

The point is that Erlich, like other doomsayers, predicted the end of civilisation as we know it by about now (2010) - I think its pretty obvious that civiliisation as we know it is intact.

Erlich,like Gore, made a lot of money frightening the sh*t out of people.

His predictions were wrong - hard to argue with that - the coastlines have not been abandoned because of rotting fish - why should we believe the predictions of Gore and his ilk?

The AGW doomsayers are the modern day equivalent of the relgious fanatics the used to stand on street corners with a sign saying "Repent ye sinners - the end of the world is nigh".

AGW and the "environment" is now a money spinning business. The sad part of that is the environment will suffer because of the misguided antics of the greedy and the gullible.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby BobHelm » March 7, 2010, 11:39 am

If his book is
is riddled with reference to "Global Warming"
then I would like to read some of them.
Any synopsis I have read of "The Population Bomb" clearly state that his argument is completely about the growth in world population leading to mass starvation because food production could not keep pace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb
I will be more than happy to read any synopsis that suggests the book is to do with "Global Warming".
To say
Its a bit twee to state that its all about pollution and nothing to do with AGW ... misleading in fact. His book "The Population Bom 1968" is riddled with reference to "Global Warming".

Is equally misleading. Nowhere did I say his book "The_Population_Bomb" had anything to do with pollution - as I said above his book is all about the need for population control. His later book may well cite every danger know to mankind. Because it cites Global Warming as further proof on his theories on the need for Population Control does not mean it is a book about global warming - it is still about Population Control. Even if Global Warming had never been heard of, the book would still have been produced promoting the same need for Population Control.

As I said before - for people like me who would like a constructive, fact based debate on Global warming these mis-truths are equally as damaging to the antis viewpoint as misrepresentation of data is damaging to the pro lobby.
I do not like to be taken for a fool by either side.
I can spot "hype" and "spin" all too soon. The antis have made a great deal about the inaccurate data supplied by the pros. However the mis-truths and mis-quotes they often spread on the web belittles any case they may have.

To call anyone who has ever predicted serious crisis for the world as a 'Global Warmer' is grossly misleading. I am surprised that parts of Revelations or Nostradamus predictions have not been used - although they may well have been in some of the wackier anti sites. Trust me this approach may well win applause from others who believe the same but it will turn most independent thinkers well away from what is being said.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby cookie » March 7, 2010, 1:30 pm

modern technology allows us to go back in history.....

the results can be astonishing !!!!!!

from the 1970s

[quote]A U.S. Department of Energy study released in
April, 1979 stated: “It is the sense of the scientific community that carbon dioxide is potentially the most important environmental issue
facing mankind.”
(Baltimore Sun, 1/13/80)

In July, 1979, four scientists submitted a report
to the President’s Counsil on Environmental Quality
entitled “The Carbon Dioxide Problem: Implications
for Policy in the Management of Energy and Other
Resources.” The scientists stated conservatively that:

The C02 problem is one of the most important
contemporary enviromental problems, is a direct
product of industrialization, threatens the stability
of climates worldwide and therefore the stability of
all nations, and can be controlled
. Steps toward
control are necessary now. The potential disruptions
are sufficiently great to warrant the incorporation
of the C02 problem into all considerations of policy
in the development of energy…..[/quote]
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby ronan01 » March 7, 2010, 4:44 pm

Consider the paranoid tone of this email from climate-fear-promoter Paul Ehrlich, during an exchange with fellow members at the National Academy of Scientists on how best to deal with the Denier threat: (Hat tip: Marc Morano)

Most of our colleagues don’t seem to grasp that we’re not in a gentlepersons’ debate, we’re in a street fight against well-funded, merciless enemies who play by entirely different rules.”

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/james ... collapses/
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby ronan01 » March 7, 2010, 4:46 pm

New evidence for man-made global warming
Man is responsible for global warming, according to a new report that hits back at the growing scepticism around climate change


....Dr Stott hoped the study would add to the ongoing debate about whether mankind is to blame for global warming.

"I just hope people look at the evidence," he said. "This is really what it is up to scientists to do - to show the climate is changing in such a systematic way it is consistent with understanding and with the expected response to human activities. I just hope people will look at that evidence and make up their minds informed by the scientific evidence."

However well known sceptic Professor Bjorn Lomborg, said people remain confused about the impacts of climate change and what the world should do about it.

"If the study confirms what the UN has been telling us - that global warming is real and man made and really happening - that would be great. But the scepticism is much more on the actual impacts and what we are doing," he said. "Just like other serious problems we should not magnify global warming for affect."

Godfrey Bloom, the UKIP MEP and member of the European Parliament Environment Committee, questioned the study itself.

"I have seen no published evidence that goes beyond a rather unlikely hypothesis that man caused global warming and it is getting thinner by the day," he said. "So before we disturb the global economy we need to take a step back and re-evaluate."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/enviro ... rming.html
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby ronan01 » March 7, 2010, 4:57 pm

[quote="cookie"]modern technology allows us to go back in history.....

the results can be astonishing !!!!!!

from the 1970s

THE COOLING WORLD

Yep - the results are astonishing!!!!!!

http://www.numberwatch.co.uk/cooling1.pdf
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby ronan01 » March 7, 2010, 5:11 pm

In Denial
The meltdown of the climate campaign.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/print/articles/denial

The climate campaign is a movement unable to hide its decline. Skeptics and critics of climate alarmism have long been called “deniers,” with the comparison to Holocaust denial made explicit, but the denier label now more accurately fits the climate campaigners. Their first line of defense was that the acknowledged errors amount to a few isolated and inconsequential points in the report of the IPCC’s Working Group II, which studies the effects of global warming, and not the more important report of the IPCC’s Working Group I, which is about the science of global warming. Working Group I, this argument goes, is where the real action is, as it deals with the computer models and temperature data on which the “consensus” conclusion is based that the Earth has warmed by about 0.8 degrees Celsius over the last century, that human-generated greenhouse gases are overwhelmingly responsible for this rise, and that we may expect up to 4 degrees Celsius of further warming if greenhouse gas emissions aren’t stopped by mid-century. As Gore put it in his February 28 Times article, “the overwhelming consensus on global warming remains unchanged.” I note in passing that the 2007 Working Group I report uses the terms “uncertain” or “uncertainty” more than 1,300 times in its 987 pages, including what it identified as 54 “key uncertainties” limiting our mastery of climate prediction.

This central pillar of the climate campaign is unlikely to survive much longer, and each repetition of the “science-is-settled” mantra inflicts more damage on the credibility of the climate science community. The scientist at the center of the Climategate scandal at East Anglia University, Phil (“hide the decline”) Jones dealt the science-is-settled narrative a huge blow with his candid admission in a BBC interview that his surface temperature data are in such disarray they probably cannot be verified or replicated, that the medieval warm period may have been as warm as today, and that he agrees that there has been no statistically significant global warming for the last 15 years—all three points that climate campaigners have been bitterly contesting. And Jones specifically disavowed the “science-is-settled” slogan:

BBC: When scientists say “the debate on climate change is over,” what exactly do they mean, and what don’t they mean?

Jones: It would be supposition on my behalf to know whether all scientists who say the debate is over are saying that for the same reason. I don’t believe the vast majority of climate scientists think this. This is not my view. There is still much that needs to be undertaken to reduce uncertainties, not just for the future, but for the instrumental (and especially the palaeoclimatic) past as well [emphasis added].

Judith Curry, head of the School of Earth and Atmos-pheric Sciences at Georgia Tech and one of the few scientists convinced of the potential for catastrophic global warming who is willing to engage skeptics seriously, wrote February 24: “No one really believes that the ‘science is settled’ or that ‘the debate is over.’ Scientists and others that say this seem to want to advance a particular agenda. There is nothing more detrimental to public trust than such statements.”

The next wave of climate revisionism is likely to reopen most of the central questions of “settled science” in the IPCC’s Working Group I, starting with the data purporting to prove how much the Earth has warmed over the last century. A London Times headline last month summarizes the shocking revision currently underway: “World May Not Be Warming, Scientists Say.” The Climategate emails and documents revealed the disarray in the surface temperature records the IPCC relies upon to validate its claim of 0.8 degrees Celsius of human-caused warming, prompting a flood of renewed focus on the veracity and handling of surface temperature data. Skeptics such as Anthony Watts, Joseph D’Aleo, and Stephen McIntyre have been pointing out the defects in the surface temperature record for years, but the media and the IPCC ignored them. Watts and D’Aleo have painstakingly documented (and in many cases photographed) the huge number of temperature stations that have been relocated, corrupted by the “urban heat island effect,” or placed too close to heat sources such as air conditioning compressors, airports, buildings, or paved surfaces, as well as surface temperature series that are conveniently left out of the IPCC reconstructions and undercut the IPCC’s simplistic story of rising temperatures. The compilation and statistical treatment of global temperature records is hugely complex, but the skeptics such as Watts and D’Aleo offer compelling critiques showing that most of the reported warming disappears if different sets of temperature records are included, or if compromised station records are excluded.

.... The lingering question is whether the collapse of the climate campaign is also a sign of a broader collapse in public enthusiasm for environmentalism in general. Ted Nordhaus and Michael Shellenberger, two of the more thoughtful and independent-minded figures in the environmental movement, have been warning their green friends that the public has reached the point of “apocalypse fatigue.” They’ve been met with denunciations from the climate campaign enforcers for their heresy. The climate campaign has no idea that it is on the cusp of becoming as ludicrous and forlorn as the World -Esperanto Association.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby BobHelm » March 7, 2010, 5:32 pm

ronan01 wrote:Consider the paranoid tone of this email from climate-fear-promoter Paul Ehrlich, during an exchange with fellow members at the National Academy of Scientists on how best to deal with the Denier threat: (Hat tip: Marc Morano)

Most of our colleagues don’t seem to grasp that we’re not in a gentlepersons’ debate, we’re in a street fight against well-funded, merciless enemies who play by entirely different rules.”

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/james ... collapses/

That really is a strange piece to quote ronan01.
It is by a journalist. He is paraphrasing a piece from the Washington Times..
Consider the paranoid tone of this email from climate-fear-promoter Paul Ehrlich

are your sources own words though. The Times say
Paul R. Ehrlich, a Stanford University researcher, said in one of the e-mails
. The Times piece is a small item & reflects the differing views by a number of scientists on how to react to the crisis created by Climategate. Your source's headline is
Warmists overwhelmed by fear, panic and deranged hatred as their 'science' collapses
.
If you see that in the email extract above then you certainly have a different reading comprehension to me. would seem that the "paranoid" claim could be better placed at the door of Mr. Delingpole than Mr. Ehrlich.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby tomloughney » March 7, 2010, 6:56 pm

I don't think man has much to do with the "warming/cooling" or "changing" of the climate, and I don't thing man can do much about stopping the future.

I remember Grandmother always taking a sweater with her, just in case it got chilly. She never once tried to make it stay warm, she just prepared for the chill.

I suspect some of the world will be improved by the warming and other areas damaged. We should prepare for that and stop this noise making. We should also be aware that the world can also cool and other effects can be seen also.

The easiest way to calm the folks is to eliminate cap and trade. This is just a financial tool that can generate Trillions of dollars out of "nothing", the lust the banks and governments have for their portion of the pie is scary. I must say it is a great new product "generate a need, and a product without any investment or action on anybody's part except for the bankers.......

I am not in favor of pollution, it is simply a waste of money. I don't resent driving a car that gets 25mpg, but I do resent the fact that my car is only 20% energy efficient with 80% of my money getting wasted. I don't mind the electric bills, but I do resent that 50% or all electricity is simply wasted in the grid due to losses.

Recycling often uses more energy than new because of laws and regulations governing how and where.

I don't worry about high food prices, but get upset at the amount of food that winds up in my trash each week. I waste more food that any cost increase in that food. Giant apples that I can't eat, 2 pound packages of steak, 1500 calorie single serving size..... gee what a waste of energy, resources and money.

BTW: There is no unemployment in Thailand..... everybody works..... what a system, we should copy that in the USA.
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