Extension of Retirement Visa Since Closer Scrutiny Annouced

Post by **plumbers** » July 25, 2014, 8:36 pm

Good advice Bumper ,I understand where you are coming from Brian Davis but getting angry and making the officer look bad is to me not a good idea, i know you are right in principal but this is Thailand .

Post by **Brian Davis** » July 26, 2014, 5:05 am

Excuse me for, once again, sounding off but ....

Yes, gentleman, “if one can keep one’s head….” Etc. I’ve been in Thailand quite a while now and have even been known to give others advice about keeping calm. But my patience is running thin with two-faced Thais (that’s not a generalization). Even my wife, typically ‘ don’t make a fuss, just pay’ attitude, commented this ‘known’ officer had the manner of being ‘untouchable, strong’. Not surprising, when things were obviously going to get difficult, her colleague referred to her. No doubt this woman will be waving Thai flags, parade proudly in her uniform, show reverence to you know who – then go about ripping off ‘customers’ in her work. I’m a bit tired of the charade. It’s all bull****, don’t you think? Up to individuals how they choose to deal with Immigration. In one of the few things here I have just a little control over, I just feel I have to say no! In any properly-run organization, this Officer would be out on her rear. But, TIT. I hope my young son will grow up to really understand respect and what’s right and wrong. My paperwork is in order for living in Thailand. If I’m ‘remembered’ at Immigration, I hope it’s because I’m not a soft touch and they know they can’t mess with me.
The Army appear to be tackling some corruption. Perhaps Immigration is on the list? Mind you, it must be a hell of a long list.

Incidentally, I would normally expect ‘civil servants’ to be on a pretty good salary and conditions. I’ve no idea what Immigration Officers receive, yet there always seems to be talk of police officers not earning enough. Maybe it’s a ‘red herring’?
As the Udon player was dealing with the same Officer, just hope she cooled sufficiently so he’s eligible for today’s game! But I understand yelling abuse at the referee IS entirely acceptable.

Just kidding, I used to attempt to be one.

Post by **fdimike** » July 26, 2014, 5:39 am

Brian
I couldn't agree with you more. I've had plenty of unpleasant experiences with this same officer, but I've always stood my ground and won. Even my wife of 40 years (Thai) has had her fill of this one. The last incident had us both discussing events with the boss who kept her out of the conversation. Over an hour discussing the attempted 500B demand for a letter in irder to be able to get my second 5 year DL. I try to avoid her whenever possible.
The Immigration dept is supposed to be under a new boss so maybe the useless IOs will be put out to pasture soon. One can only hope.

Post by **Khun Paul** » July 26, 2014, 5:45 am

I have often found, that if there is a problem in dealing with your immigration [problems aka Visas, then a quiet chat immediately afterwards or even before if you think there may be a problem is and has been the best way forward.
over the past few years they have numerous maps where I live , never been visited and I am damn sure they know exactly where I live I have been there since I came here.
As for pocketing the change or no receipts, well it has to be truthful occurred twice in 13 years , a small amount to be sure but never repeated as always make sure I have the correct amount.
True over the past decade there have been problems with one or two IO's but I also look at it from the offical side my previous life as a police officer helps me in this. There are times when the applicant is an out an out A-hole , stupid or just downright awkward with a capital A. These same officer have to deal with them the same way.
I am noit making excuses but just pointing out that maybe the person before you was a pain in the proverbial, and you are having the grupmy officer not because of you but because of them. They should be able to rise above it ( the IO's I mean ) but they are human as are we all ( despite what some may think ) so a little latitude is required.
if you have a complaint ask to see the senior officer present , they are there possibly upstairs or out the back , but they will listen to genuine complaint, but never try to show up the officer in front of everyone else, that is a recipe for disaster. Even thought the new hymn sheet is out and well published all IO's still have the right to individual discretion and can and will use it if you piss them off.
There were times in my career when the public made my life hell just because they can and one or two unjustified complaints gave me a lot of stress, when you are in a Uniformed occupation with rules governing your actions and what you can do , any deviation from that can be difficult and often that is what i hear some applicant ask a deviation. The rules are quite specific . try following them or complain .

Post by **Brian Davis** » July 26, 2014, 6:38 am

I understand your comments Paul. I don't think I qualify in the A-hole category.

In fact,I think people know me for interaction, trying to have a laugh and a joke. It's a perverse situation that this Officer expects respect from me, when she's not giving me the same and is trying to rob me.
I also comprehend 'saving face'. I think you and I both know that many Thai will lie to you, rather than admit to a mistake, all part of 'saving own face'. Frankly, I have far more respect for somebody who says 'Sorry, I got it wrong'. In this Officer's case, I'm not prepared to play this Thai hush, hush game of only the Officer and her boss knowing there's a problem. She's a crook, needs to be exposed and if that means her colleagues and anyone else in the office hearing my complaint, so be it. Yes, in doing that, there's a danger Immigration might try to make life difficult for me, but at last in Thailand, there's quite a move towards the non-acceptance of corruption. Some way to go, though?

Post by **Khun Paul** » July 26, 2014, 7:54 am

yes Brian all noted , I trust you explore all avenues before outing the officer concerned even in public. I do appreciate your comments , however a note of caution, they do tend to stick together in these circumstances so softly softly and a circuitous route to achieve your aims would be the pragmatic approach rather than a full in her face your wrong statement. despite your personal feelings there are more ways to skin a cat.

Post by **semperfiguy** » July 26, 2014, 9:00 am

Knock on wood...in my four years of dealing with Immigration here in Udon I have never had a problem and no one has ever asked me for tea money. Over the past few years I have read numerous comments on different threads regarding this lady, but I have to say that in my case she is the one that I always look for when I walk in the door. My wife and I befriended her a few years ago when she was a speaker at one of the Udon Expat Club meetings, and every time we enter the Immigration Office she will stop what she's doing and acknowledge us. I take a number at the queue and line up right in front of her desk hoping that she will be the one to service me. She even gave us her private mobile number and told us to call her if we had any questions or problems.

I don't doubt that some of the other posters are having a problem with her, but my question is "why does she only target certain individuals, and what criteria does she use to profile those who she decides to try to extract money from"? Is she preying on those who look naive and vulnerable, or those who are giving her a hard time, or those who have very young wives or whose wives appear to be uneducated? Maybe she's got a beef with guys who come in looking like they've been boozed up for three straight days, or someone who is dressed like a slob and loaded down with tats. She may very well have a bias of some sort, or perhaps it's none of the above and her choices are all random. I suppose we'll never have those answers, but it does make one think.

I must admit that in spite of the fact that I have never had a problem with Immigration, after reading all of the complaints I still dread those times when I have to appear in that office, and I'm walking on eggshells the entire time I'm there because I know that they can be so unpredictable.

Post by **merchant seaman** » July 26, 2014, 9:08 am

I, like you SFG, always look to do my buisness with the Lady in question. She is fast and efficient and has always answered my questions in a proffesionly manner. I have never encountered a problem with any of the IO's. Guess like you I'm just lucky.

Post by **Khun Paul** » July 26, 2014, 10:21 am

I do agree I have NEVER had a problem at Udon Thani Immigration, now Nong Khai was a completely different ball game I must add.
All staff are courteous to me and I to them, the odd occasion where there is a small misunderstanding it is quickly cleared up with no recriminations.
Some experience problems all i can say is take care, it is after all their country and we are mere guests.

Post by **Jing Jing** » July 26, 2014, 11:32 am

So why can't a request be sent by the ex-pat community through to DSI to look into Udon Immigration?

Post by **FrazeeDK** » July 26, 2014, 11:44 am

as long as most of us (I'm guilty) just smile and accept the graft and bribery it will continue..

Post by **bumper** » July 26, 2014, 12:05 pm

Nina was the only one I ever had a problem with, haven't seen her in years. I don't know about Brian. But, oddly enough I was having one of those don't mess with me days, on the same day he posted this. Even got on a ladies case who really didn't deserve for cutting in line in front of me. Must of cussed out a dozen drivers that day. Happily I never had one of those days, when I went to immigration.

I knicked 100 baht because we didn't have change once. May have been true right after long holiday. I don't know if it was the same lady or not. Since then I bring the exact amount. But, compared to Nong Khai days so far this has been heaven.

On the right day what happened to Brian may have put me over the edge to.

These days compared to dealing with Nong Khai or the AEK operation I'm not nearly as nervous as I was before.

It seemed even more pleasant when they were out at the Airport.

So has anyone renewed since the Army took over.

The map I just give them a copy of the first one I made. I was told the last time that I no longer have to bring in the Bank letter anymore. One less thing to worry about. Soliciting bribes is not right, you can always say no. But. if you really want to get something done probably not going to happen there.

By the way Brian if I offended you it was not my intent and I apologize

Post by **papaguido** » July 26, 2014, 1:39 pm

semperfiguy wrote:
I don't doubt that some of the other posters are having a problem with her, but my question is "why does she only target certain individuals, and what criteria does she use to profile those who she decides to try to extract money from"? Is she preying on those who look naive and vulnerable, or those who are giving her a hard time, or those who have very young wives or whose wives appear to be uneducated? Maybe she's got a beef with guys who come in looking like they've been boozed up for three straight days, or someone who is dressed like a slob and loaded down with tats. She may very well have a bias of some sort, or perhaps it's none of the above and her choices are all random. I suppose we'll never have those answers, but it does make one think.

I believe any profiling she does is assuming the customer doesn't any know better (not aware it's a free service) and not expecting to be challenged. My intent of splashing her face on the forum was to make others aware. What I mean by free service, it's not listed in the fee schedule on the Immigration Bureau's website:

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/en ... p?page=fee

When I reported the incident to the Udon Immigration Inspector, he told me he referred to the same website and acknowledge there was no fee for such a service. If they want to charge 500bt for the service, then they should make it an office policy and post the fee schedule somewhere in the office, then I wouldn't have a problem paying for services rendered. I'm not putting any cash in someone's pocket just because they can ask and think they can get away with it.

By the way, several months ago an acquaintance was asked 1000bt from the same IO for transferring his visa to a new passport. He didn't have the cash on him and said he would return later. He ended up coming back another day with cash on hand and was served by another IO who processed his passport without having asked for a fee.

I don't believe they're are corrupt and with the exception of that one incident I've never experienced any "tea money" situations at either Udon or Nong Khai immigration.

Post by **Brian Davis** » July 26, 2014, 2:01 pm

No, you didn't offend me, Bumper.

Perhaps my memory is playing tricks, but I don't recall problems at AEK or Nong Khai - unless an Officer trying to persuade me to buy a watch, cream etc. counts.

Interesting thoughts there, Semperfiguy, as to why this Officer would appear to have a dual personality. I've dealt with her before without any problems. Surely, 'newish' farangs, unaware of how things really work, are obvious targets. Again, I don't think I meet any of the criteria you outlined, except the young wife! Lucky me. =D> I must be careful of generalizing or offending here, but it's surely fair to say that many of us old 'uns have wives a lot younger than would normally be the case in the western world and because of the nature of things here, many ladies may not have had much of an education. Certainly the case with my wife. (Mind you, with some graduates I've met, I wouldn't bet that e.g. a university education guarantees 'bright sparks'!). So the Officer may be drawing a conclusion, or have a grudge, but how she could really judge much in the few words she exchanged with my wife, I don't know. Incidentally, she may have been allocated to that Expats Meeting and no reason for her to be other than pleasant at that.

Possibly many of the dealings farangs have had with her have been over visas. I suggest there's not much scope for corruption there with the need for proper records to be maintained(unless the farang is not meeting criteria and she's willing to bend the rules at a price) - the fee is set, although the 100 baht change from 2 x 1000 might not easily come back. It's the other miscellaneous 'free' administrative tasks which give her more scope, I would think. I can certainly recall several posts where people have paid willingly or in ignorance for a letter, a form to be completed etc. 500+ baht a time which, whether into her handbag, a team or office pool, can add up to a fair sum dependent on how many she can con.

"they do tend to stick together" I think that's an understatement, Paul.

Bearing in mind there's evidence over time of several of us speaking to the officer i/c, getting the 'face' that corruption is wrong, he's going to stop it etc. the female Officer is still in post and still 'at it'.

I'm tempted to drop a line to General Wotsit, asking if he'd mind popping into Udon Immigration when he's up this way. He's apparently busy counting bags of rice.

On the other hand, I think again I've made my protest/fuss, probably nothing will happen and I'll keep my head down and try to avoid this Officer in future.

In all seriousness, I hope some progress can be made into eradicating corruption in all areas. To a large extent, it's responsible for the mess this country is in.

Post by **Brian Davis** » July 26, 2014, 2:16 pm

papaguido wrote:
..... If they want to charge 500bt for the service, then they should make it an office policy and post the fee schedule somewhere in the office, then I wouldn't have a problem paying for services rendered. I'm not putting any cash in someone's pocket just because they can ask and think they can get away with it.

Seconded and exactly what I was suggesting to the Major the other day. He was apparently transferred to Udon from the Headquarters, Bangkok. I do not mind paying, as long as it's official. Increased revenue, up to them how they use it, but an increas in salaries seems the obvious. Mind you, I'd expect PROPER action against any Officer found to be corrupt and I don't mean placed on gardening leave, or transferred to an inactive post. A change of mindset so everyone realizes corruption is a dirty word, not to be tolerated.

Post by **bumper** » July 26, 2014, 6:08 pm

"I'm tempted to drop a line to General Wotsit"

That is the answer. If you feel strongly enough about it. If not blowing off a little steam doesn't hurt either. When mine was done I actually expected to pay a service fee. But, it was not asked for. Wonder where they would transfer the Major to now

Cause they would hold him accountable as well. These days it is really pretty serious stuff.-

Post by **Brian Davis** » July 27, 2014, 4:53 am

A relevant article in the Bangkok Post today.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opin ... ing-chance

Post by **Deacz9** » July 27, 2014, 12:30 pm

It's good to see someone having the balls to face off these corrupt b'tards! Good on you Brian, I hope more follow your stance! =D>

Post by **dazzz** » July 28, 2014, 8:00 am

Firstly i would like to say in 9 yrs in Thailand i have only seen 1 person drunk at Vientiane consul. Never seen a slob ,badly dressed rude or angry person in any immigration office so no need for anyone to infer that perhaps anyone who has a bad time at imm was one of these. Those on imm o a or 1yr marraige extensions have little input on this topic as their experience at udon imm is not the same as the people who are targeted so no point saying what a lovey time you had or how nice they are.
I lived for 4yrs on 1yr imm o multi visas so no problem. Then not going home i started getting 90 day o visa at laos and 60 day ext at udon. First time for 60 day ext with said lady ,told me as my wife was not with me could not issue me with ext even though i pointed out i got the actual visa without my wife. This was the last day of my visa and a friday. As i went to leave thinking i would have to go to laos for 4 days she said give me 500 baht i will do it now.Easy for the smug people to say do not pay.I gave her 500baht and got the visa.
Next time for 60 ext she told me no ext as i already had one in the last year? No such rule! Give me 500 baht i will do for you . I refused ,no visa. I went to nong khai to try to get and was told by the infamous police sergeant had to go to udon. I told him she wanted 500baht and he looked shocked ?Got the supervisor to phone udon and told her to give me a visa. He asked me if i wanted to take my complaint further . I said no justed wanted my visa.
Went back to udon and the said lady still tried it on saying i will only give you 30 days if you do not give me 500baht. I told her if she did not give me the 60 days i would take the complaint further at nong khai and finally got the extension.
This year got 12 month marraige extension ,said lady did it for me. Nice as pie , polite helpfull , no problems . Took 25 minutes .
The people she picks on are alone in the office as i was on both occasions, people who want changes to their passport or visas or those who want tourist visa ext or imm o visa ext.
Easy for the o a visa people to say do not pay then leave the office with no visa then have to leave thailand and as the imm officer has the final say little recourse.Better to pay than get no visa or ext.
dazzz

Post by **bumper** » July 28, 2014, 9:42 am

Well in following this thread seems to center around one Person. I believe she can be dealt with, even the problems ones in Nong Khai eventually went away. When I had my problem I dealt with it. I didn't cave in and pay tea money, Actually did it the same way as you did and it never came up again. I don't label the entire office because of one officer.

I've never have the problem with her, luck probably. But you guys want to stop this and you have been asked for Tea Money, you would probably be able to stop it. The commander in Nong Khai has opened he door, for a further complaint. Those of you who have had the problem, might consider filing a complaint in mass.

We are now aware, that's good. Anything further your just blowing off steam and that's OK to. Not going to be any better time to act on this. If it really bothers you that much. Long term visa people from what I can see have been conned a well. It was tried with me when I first got here.

I have single Visa Nina insisted that I had to have 800K in the bank and 65K a month proved income. She even had a "friend at bank who would help me." He position was there was no word for or in the Thai Language (B.S.) I went over her head to the district commander. Who called the Captain at AEK, Nina argued with he so much she was told to leave the office until I was finished. I have qualified now for 12 years now on 65K a month.

I was required to get letter from my bank stating I did put the money in the bank and it came from outside Thailand. I didn't complain as that is what the law says. I was told this year that I don't need it anymore. That would be great. But,I still do the deposits on a monthly basis and I can the letter within a few hours.

If you read the Law the phrase it's up to the officer to determine if you qualify or not, That one sentence creates a lot of power. That is what makes that one officer dangerous. She pulls it on me I will take to the next step, just like I did the last time. Keep in mind I never raised my voice, never showed any anger. I didn't need to. I did post my experience on here, so others knew.

But, venting is a good thing in this case it has made everyone aware. We each have our own experiences. It has not always been smooth sailing for me either. But, since the move to Udon I have only had good experiences. One baht for a copy, a 100 baht for no change. I make sure I have the right change now, problem solved.

Just knowing they can say no, puts a lot of pressure on us once a year. But, I feel a lot more comfortable now then I did years ago.