Religion and the cults

rjj04 wrote:

AroyFarang wrote:Given that there are so many things that cant be explained by science, including our existence, then wouldn't it make sense that there is more going on here? If religion explains this for some people and gives them comfort then it has to be a good thing, no?

Also regarding war and wars in the name of religion, this is an awful thing however given the nature of man, wouldn't we just find something else to fight about if religion wasn't a factor?

Science progresses. Science may never explain everything, but religious explanations are not a great substitute.
If by "our existence" you mean homo sapien? Obviously evolution explains that. If you mean life itself, science is working on that. There is the whole field of abiogenesis. Give science time, don't jump to conclusions. Especially grasping at religion to explain the natural world... and our existence. It also isn't a matter of, if science can not explain something 10,000 years from now, therefore a certain religion is true. That is a false dilemma. Assuming we don't destroy ourselves - a bad assumption IMO - science will make matters more clear in generations to come. Why can't we just say we are ignorant about some things, and live with it whilst we try to correct that ignorance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

As far as religion giving "comfort" to some, that is fine. It is just the excessive baggage that comes with religion that seems to never go away. There are other ways to find comfort.

"Something else to fight about?" Yes, there is always something else to fight about. To me it is the absolute certainty in the minds of believers that is the problem. I am talking about all beliefs here. Doubt is usually a good braking force for extremism. When religion makes people feel 100% certain, they are more willing to do almost anything. Net-net, if you add up the pros and cons of religion, I think we are better off without religion. The churches and mosques and wats ought to be converted into teaching other things such as critical thinking skills, humanism, and secular ethics rather than religious dogma. Given enough time and effort we can stop appealing to religion for moral leadership. The lazy way is to turn to some holy book rather than work at it. Just my two bits

A very well put together two bits may i add!

However my point is that there are some things that Science will never be able to explain because they are unexplainable! let me give you an example. Where does the world come from? It come from the Big Bang. Where did the big bang come from, it came from Particles colliding in Space and a huge explosion. Where does the Universe come from etc etc etc until you cant answer anymore. The reason being is there is no answer and there never will be an answer because as i mentioned above they are unexplainable. I got that example a bit wrong above but you get the point.

SFG, Still working on that by the way.

This post is getting like the way circles get bigger and bigger when you throw a stone in the water, eventually upon reaching the edge it ends, however with this post there are no edges ......something akin to the Universe no edges no bourndaries.
belief is in the eyes of the beholder, I ain't beholden anything yet, so I will remain a sceptic and a questioner if that's ok with the God botherers and the like OK.

Khun Paul wrote:This post is getting like the way circles get bigger and bigger when you throw a stone in the water, eventually upon reaching the edge it ends, however with this post there are no edges ......something akin to the Universe no edges no bourndaries.
belief is in the eyes of the beholder, I ain't beholden anything yet, so I will remain a sceptic and a questioner if that's ok with the God botherers and the like OK.

Ecclesiastes 3:11...Yet God has made everything beautiful for its own time. He has planted eternity in the human heart, but even so, people cannot see the whole scope of God's work from beginning to end.

I see what you mean Khun Paul...there is no end to what the human mind can conjour up in order to avoid believing in what God has already said about Himself. We have seen just a sample of it here, and I'm sure that we are nowhere near covering the entire spectrum of unbelief. As long as God has put eternity in the human heart, man will always be searching for something to believe in, and most will never come to the knowledge of the truth...but they will die trying!

This has been by far the most interesting topic on the forum in a long time. It beats the heck out of reading about "how shallow men are". Let's keep it going gentlemen!

Jello, I hope I answered your question adequately on the last page.

Yes, and thanks for answering.
I think you may have misunderstood my use of the word mysticism. I was using the word as a description of a direct union of the human soul with the Divinity.

I've asked others this question and the answer is usually like what rjj04 said in his post "a gut feeling, or something in my heart".

What you describe in your personal experience with the Holy Spirt is not really beyond the realm of human capability.
Difficult and impressive yes! But you have put in an extraordinary amount of time studying the Bible.

So heres a follow-up question (and I hope I'm not offending you, I take it your enjoying this discussion.)

Is the Holy Spirit a Entity separate from yourself or is he a metaphor for the inspiration and inner guidance you hold from study of the scripture? (And please don't answer with Scripture on this one, this is a question regarding your personal relationship with the Holy Spirit).

Jello wrote:Yes, and thanks for answering.
I think you may have misunderstood my use of the word mysticism. I was using the word as a description of a direct union of the human soul with the Divinity.

I've asked others this question and the answer is usually like what rjj04 said in his post "a gut feeling, or something in my heart".

What you describe in your personal experience with the Holy Spirt is not really beyond the realm of human capability.
Difficult and impressive yes! But you have put in an extraordinary amount of time studying the Bible.

So heres a follow-up question (and I hope I'm not offending you, I take it your enjoying this discussion.)

Is the Holy Spirit a Entity separate from yourself or is he a metaphor for the inspiration and inner guidance you hold from study of the scripture? (And please don't answer with Scripture on this one, this is a question regarding your personal relationship with the Holy Spirit).

Hi Jello! Thanks for the question. I will try to answer you without adding the Scriptural support except for one which I think is very important.

Matthew 3
16 After his baptism, as Jesus came up out of the water, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and settling on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, "This is my beloved Son, and I am fully pleased with him."

According to Scripture man has his own spirit. He is a triune being created in the triune image of God, consisting of body, soul and spirit. When God created Adam he breathed into Adam the Holy Spirit who is separate from man’s spirit. After sin and the fall of Adam, God withdrew the Holy Spirit from Adam. When a man receives Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit is given back and the man has been effectively regenerated and “born again from above” and has now been made righteous in the sight of God. The relationship that was broken with Adam is now reestablished by way of the “New Adam”, the man Christ Jesus, and the evidence of the reconciliation is the presence of the Holy Spirit within the believer.

The Bible teaches that the Godhead consists of three distinct persons who are referred to as the Trinity… the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are identical in diety and eternal attributes and separate in function, but all make up the One true and living God. There is an in-house debate as to whether these are three distinct persons or simply three separate manifestations of God. This is difficult for even the believer to grasp, so we will not discuss it further here.

The verse above in Matthew is one instance in the Bible where all Three were present at the very same time. At the crucifixion of Jesus there is Jesus on the cross speaking to His Father who is in Heaven, and when He breathed His last He gave up the Ghost.

So in conclusion…yes…the Holy Spirit is separate from me in the sense that He came into me at my point of regeneration, but I now consider Him part of me since God has promised me in Scripture that He will never withdraw His Spirit from me.

And by the way, that “gut feeling” or “something in my heart” that rjjo4 was referring to is none other than a man’s conscience. It was meant to work in partnership with the Holy Spirit, but because of sin is corrupted in the natural man. When a man even looks upon sin it is darkened and can even reach a state where it no longer functions for good, but only for evil. Thus the term that we hear and use so often…”he has no conscience”.

Hope this helps. God Bless!

Jello, I came across this diagram years ago which I think best depicts the triune nature of man. A picture is worth a thousand words of explanation. God Bless!

The lighter side of Religion and the Cults is discussed on tonight's Daily Show at
http://www.thedailyshow.com/

Enjoy it with a bowl of popcorn!

Moderator Note: Post removed per op's request

Nice sleuthing.

Reading between the lines of the intro of the site (and paraphrasing), I'd think the Devine guy might be a *** or at least a monger.

ROFLMAO: "We prayed for a small girl that had been sick and feverish for days. Her fever immediately broke and she began running and playing with all the other children." Well, sht - don't fevers normally break after a few days? As amazing as the "miracle" of fire to uneducated villagers, I'm sure.

"I moved to Thailand August 2009, our ministry is based in Udon Thani...We are also involved in ministering to the girls at the Udon Home for Girls, a government operated orphanage here in our city. We are preparing halfway houses for the girls to move to when they are put out of the orphanage at age 18. We will continue to disciple them and teach them work and social skills." - Yeah, I bet you are, sport...

It's always the same M.O. as written right there on the home page. Find the destitute and uneducated. "Give" them something to win them over, make them dependent, then mind-control them with the specter of withdrawing the support if they don't continue to go along. How many cultures have been trashed that way over 2 millennia?

What do you have to say about religion, George Carlin?

semperfiguy wrote:Jello, I came across this diagram years ago which I think best depicts the triune nature of man. A picture is worth a thousand words of explanation. God Bless!

This is one of the drawings of Clarence Larkin (1850–1924) who was an American Baptist pastor, Bible teacher and author whose writings on Dispensationalism had a great impact on conservative Protestant visual culture in the 20th century. His intricate and influential charts provided readers with a visual strategy for mapping God's action in history and for interpreting complex biblical prophecies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarence_Larkin

The dispensationalism of Protestants came to interpret the Book of Revelation as predicting future events, rather than predicting events that have taken place throughout history and in a sense providing a handbook on evangelism if you believe this type of rhetorical philosophy which is similar to in picture format to Hindu and Buddhist scripts and pictograms.

KHONDAHM wrote:Nice sleuthing.

...

I actually sent a PM asking to delete that post, thinking I might have crossed the line, but too late now.

In any case, if his intentions were pure, I still think he might have stated them for all to see. As you say, typical MO.

I begrudge no one their religion, but please, just keep it outta my face...

BTW, I'm still trying to recover my vision after laughing through tears at that George Carlin clip. Nice find...

This morning I told TGF about all this. Then she recounted a story of when she was a little girl. She was nine or ten years old and she had a Chinese Thai friend. One day her friend took her too a Chinese Christian school. A couple men at the school took my TGF into a room and gave her the whole pitch. They threatened her with the eternal pain and agony of Hell. They told her how she must forget the Lord Buddha. They told her, if she did that, and accepted Jesus, not only would she not burn in Hell forever, the school would teach her English and Chinese for free. It was the whole in your face carrot and stick routine. She was very scared and intimidated, and to get out of the place, she said she would do what they wanted. Luckily when she went home her parents found out and made certain she never went there again. If I were her father I would have been steaming mad, and in the face of those men. These people make me sick.

This sort of story makes me understand why Thai people can seem xenophobic.

Yeah, I cringe when I meet those sanctimonious, smug, cretinous missionaries. Those are problems the Thais don't need.

Back in the US city where I lived, there's a large group of Thai Christians who have been converted by a single church, and a bunch of self-serving Thai preachers. My 'Grandma', a Thai woman I have known for 20 years goes to the church, mostly because all her friends do. For her, it's like an amulet - can't hurt, but she doesn't put a whole lot of stock in it. She likes Phra Yay-su, but remains a Buddhist...

It's so weird to eat at a Thai restaurant and have Jesus' picture up on the wall, next to their Majesties.

If you haven't already, check out KD's George Carlin post.

The thing that grits me is the "charity" work some religions perform. If it is then publicized, IMHO, is no longer charity. It's marketing and promotion. Websites? Really? Also, "charity" is not a quid pro quo thing. Giving people food and shelter in return for their allegiance to dogma is buying souls anyway you cut it. Or, to flip it, people sell their souls for the "charity" they receive. Truer charity would be providing the food and shelter and not even bother revealing one's motivation or compelling the beneficiary to adopt the same beliefs.

I'm atheist and frequently perform acts of charity because I think it's the right thing to do. If I have a little more than I need, I help my neighbor or fellow human. Acts which completely change the lives of entire families or simply turn a frown upside down. I would never then attempt to then change or abandon his/her beliefs. Nor would I bother revealing mine. It simply doesn't matter. Odd how religious people so often feel compelled to make it known. Marketing and promotion...