Should the USA veto a Palestinian state?

Personally, I am sick and tired of that speck of a country called Israel having so much influence over US foreign policy and domestic affairs. One way to end that would be to marginalize the "reasons" for the "special relationship" we have with them. One way to do THAT would be to democratize the Middle East (see the implication here?).

IMHO, the Israelies morphed into the antagonizers over the past 40 years, but continue to boo hoo hoo for support for their Zionistic policies. They are oppressing the Palestinians by any sober measure or interpretation of the term, and that opression needs to end so that future generations of Palestinians can have some sort of life other than life spent inside walled and fenced ghettos (which is both ironic and hypocritical in and of itself).

A politically neutered Israel would no longer sway our policies and we could give it about as much attention and assistance as we do Ghana, Madagascar, or any other low-priority ally.

With dictatorships surrounding Israel gone and replaced by rule of those people (whatever form that may take) Israel may be forced to cooperate with it's neighbors with more humility if it is to survive. IMHO, THAT would be good for the Middle East, the USA, and the world.

I truly hope we abstain and let the UN majority make this call.

Khondahm, Ive only just joined this forum but I have gone through a number of old posts that interest me. According to alot of the political posts on here, i would have though that you would agree with anything Obama had to say wheather it be right or wrong....

Anyway I do agree with you on most of your post above but Im afraid they will be a veto!

I am a supporter of most of Obama's policies because they make sense. Even those which I do not necessarily agree with have a rationale behind them. Unlike Republicans who just bluster in the House and filibuster in the Senate to block progress and avoid compromise at every opportunity.

In light of what's been happening in the Middle East (dictatorships overthrown), developments that coincidentally (really?) on Obama's watch but have been desired for decades, one must also consider the possibility that we have played a role in pushing developments along. Afterall, a new order there does server our interests.

Speculating that to be the case despite appearances to the contrary, the Palestinian move puts us in a very strong position with Israel. Think about it. By applying for statehood, WE and our veto are the only thing standing in the way of a Palestinian state with 1947 borders as previously laid out by the UN (there is also an existing UN resolution to return to the 1967 borders, but application is being made under the original borders). We do not have to veto immediately. We could hold the statehood process up for months as we take Israel to the mat and force a compromise using our newly obtained and sorely needed leverage.

Everything happens for a reason...

Our President plays chess, not "I Declare War" like the former President whom Republicans kept in office for 2 terms. Just like when he was killing Osama while cracking jokes at a Press dinner, one should not underestimate him or take everything at face value. He may be lobbying against statehood for appearances sake only...

http://www.debka.com/article/21310/

I am of the opinion that to grant a Palestinian State with borders not negotiated would be the beginning of Nuclear war.Irregardless of what one believes is right and wrong for either side.I am thankful that we have the power to block this potential World ending event!

How far do you want to go back in History to restore Nation rights to all in the World that have lost those rights or been displaced by War.

Forget it!If there is any ''forced action'',let it be to a negotiated settlement.Because the Arabs are not going to be friendly neighbors to Israel,no matter how the borders are set,until they recognize Israel right to exist!Israel is not going to sit back and allow themselves to be constantly attacked and terrorized by the Arabs!

If we don't veto the resolution,it is a lose lose situation and after all ,Our Gov't representatives need to consider the Welfare of our Nation and the World in general first!Sometimes the lesser of two evils is the only and best choice!

Actually Stan after listening to Abbas and Netanyahu live yesterday. While I loved Abbas's speech and didnt like Netanyahu's one bit, grudgingly i could see his points, well some of them anyway! Nobody is going to argue that Palestine doesnt deserve to be a full State however If i was Israeli I wouldnt want them lobbing rockets and mortars down on me either from a closer border than is already there! I really wish they could sort it. I mean we did over here but them lot are a different Kettle of fish as we say here! Im still on the Palestinians side but, and after much deliberation in my mind, i dont think giving them a State under current condition is condusive to peace in that region. Trust the Brits to screw up another part of the World! We have another saying over here and its in the form of a question, Who's the most dangerous person in the world? Answer, A British Map Maker, lol. Just poking a bit of fun at my neighbours!

I would argue that over 140 nations (more than the 2/3 majority needed) currently support a Palestinian state - AS PROPOSED along the 1947 borders. Keep in mind also that there is currently an existing UN resolution telling Israel to return to the 1967 borders. It's what the majority of the world wants. A demonstrated fact.

"Nuclear war"? That's a bit alarmist IMHO. Launching nukes at a Palestinian state would be self-annihilation. The threat of a nuke war has been looming for decades (with Israel the ONLY country in the region not required to disclose it's arsenal, I might add). Nobody is going to launch tomorrow just because of new lines on a map if they haven't launched yesterday with BOTH sides committing violence against the other. There are several documentaries available which tell the Palestinian's side of the story. American media is and always has been a pro-Israel propaganda machine (just read the names of the top executives of the America's major media outlets). Except for independent media efforts, the Palestinians are often demonized for essentially making the same claims Native Americans have made (to a disinterested government, I might add). Personally, had they long ago drawn the parallels to the American public, I think people would have understood and perhaps been interested in their plight. As it has been, Palestinian leaders pretty much sound like they are little more than a disgruntled people and have failed (miserably) to hold Americans' attention.



(outdated, but gives the gist)
http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/jews ... media.html

You believe that Israel is going to allow their defensive perimeter to be removed w/o using all means at their disposal?Alarmist in deed!Get real,this is a new era,the Nuke age!

Are you seriously suggesting Israel is going to detonate a nuclear weapon on it's own border? Seriously? Ok, I could see perhaps Iran or somesuch, but right on it's own border? Seriously?

IMHO, a more likely response would be an embargo and an iron fist invasion of Palestine. If they can't have it all, Israel would more likely do an ethnic cleansing and take it all. That would lead to a global hijad and THAT may potentially lead to the use of WMDs. The outcome of which I will leave to others to speculate.

If Israel do a full or part OCCUPATION of Palestine, HezBollah wont stand for it. The Israelis dont want to go near those guys again, after all last time they fought, the Israelis got there asses handed to them!

No I don't think they would detonate a Nuke on their own border,but as you suggested there are other scenarios that could lead to Nukes as a last resort.War will ensue if the the UN intercedes by defining borders with Nation status.So what good purpose would be served.Recognition of Nation status by both sides with a negotiated settlement is the only answer.
Israel is not going to give up its defensive network one little bit ,if there is going to no recognition and respect of the borders.
Nation status without the palestinians recognition of Israel as a state will certainly lead to war.In fact,if the UN were to grant this request,Israel would be in a position to declare justifiable war against Palestine for acts of terrorism directed towards them!

Not exactly. If the Palestinian state is not behind the acts, then you have Mumbai situation. India did not retaliate against Pakistan because the attack was not sponsored by Pakistan.

Just as a side note regarding "terrorist attacks" against Israel, do not drink so much of the Kool Aid. There is far more to it than the American media propagandistic narrative. Sort of like saying Native
Americans were terrorizing the settlers...

KHONDAHM wrote:Not exactly. If the Palestinian state is not behind the acts, then you have Mumbai situation. India did not retaliate against Pakistan because the attack was not sponsored by Pakistan.

Just as a side note regarding "terrorist attacks" against Israel, do not drink so much of the Kool Aid. There is far more to it than the American media propagandistic narrative. Sort of like saying Native
Americans were terrorizing the settlers...

Well,I don't have any facts and figures to support my views and not being privy to inside information above my pay grade!I base my views and opinions on my general hearing of ''news'' over the years.My understanding is that there a very large,possibly a majority of Palestinians,both inside and outside Palestine that refuse to accept the existence of Israel and that there are many other large Arab or Middle Eastern groups that are determined to help in that cause.Also,it seems to me,that the Palestinian leadership doesn't have the power or will to take action against the militant actors.Everything that you propose,IMO,weakens the ability of Israel to defend itself against this constant threat.Therefore ,it seems to me that your position is that Israel should capitulate ,accept the mandates of the UN and the Arab alliances all because,no matter how long they have recently been there,no matter what their historical claims are,but because the Palestinians are the righteous group in your eyes.
Your quippy (sic) analogies regarding Pakistan versus India and Native Americans are completely out of the park,IMO!
Palestine people attack Israel on a daily basis,propose the annihilation of it daily!The Native American suffered greatly in the past in the name of expansion,as did many groups,Are you proposing that we should hand over the USA to them because of past injustices?

Again,I ask you,where do you draw the line involving past changes of borders in History?

Also,I find your remark about ''not drinking so much Kool aid'',condescending,disrespectful and out of line,especially when I have not heardyou cite your expertise on the subject matter,but regard your argument and a rambling anti-Israeli discourse guised in intellectual sounding BS!

IMO,history is history and full of injustices to many people,there is no way to make right those injustices w/o causing more to others.That task,IMO,is to get on with life,settle the differences as amically as possible through negotiation and accept the differences that don't instill fear ans bodily harm.Ideas considered should be those that will produce peace not war!

If you trouble yourselves to read the history of Syria Palestine you will find that there is already an Islamic "Palestinian State" and it is already a member of the UN. It is known by the name "Jordan." The so-called Palestinian plight is easily fixed. Send the West Bank trouble makers back home to Jordan.

Hold on a second this thread is turning into a Palestinian Bashing thread. No offence to nkstan or TJ but you both are obviously firmly on the Jewish side of this discussion. Both of you from the US, what a surprise given that the US is their biggest ally. I agree that you cant just give Palestine a state based on unagreed borders with Isreal. But comments like ''Send the West Bank trouble Makers back to Jordan'' aren't helpful and TJ to be honest just shows your destain for the Palestinian peoples plight where even there most basic human rights are trampled on everyday.

If a country interfered with my right to work, my right to put food on my families table, my right to give my kids a good education and the list goes on, I know I would certainly take up arms against them. Neither side here is blameless however the Jewish State seems to me to be a beligerant one.

Both sides have their points,I am on the side of a peaceful solution,After all ,do you want to prove the Bible and initiate Armagedon (sic)?
Would you say ,you are ''firmly on the side of Palestine''?
What do you think the UN granting Nation status will cause,a peaceful solution?