Anyone got any better information on this.

Business > News ENERGY Incentive scheme for solar rooftops ready for launch Published: 13 Jul 2013 at 00.00 Newspaper section: Business The Energy Ministry will launch a long-awaited...

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I think I'm having one of those days I don't understand this at all. I see a tax break that mans nothing to me.

Is there a credit for feed back into the system?

These systems are not cheap. I would like to have it for my home. But, still not clear in my mind if there will be a savings or not.

I would like to tun the pump systems at the farm with it. anyone get this I think I'm just tired from a long day on the farm

SOLAR PANELS
Energy minister to outline plan for rooftop solar panels
Watcharapong Thongrung
The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Energy Minister Pongsak Rattapongpaisal Ruktapongpisal plans to submit to the Energy Policy and Planning Office on Tuesday a proposal to promote electricity generation via solar panels installed on rooftops of houses, buildings, offices and factories.

For 2013-14, the ministry will propose a promotional electricity rate in the form of a feed tariff for 25 years for three groups of solar electricity producers. General residences will be entitled to support of Bt6.69 per unit; small and medium-sized enterprises (producing 10-250 megawatts of electricity) will get Bt6.55 per unit; and medium-to-large factories (producing more than 250MW) will get Bt6.16 per unit.

Pongsak expects this project to result in at least 200MW of electricity generated by rooftop solar panels. The impact of this support on the fuel tariff (Ft) rate will be about Bt0.50 per unit. In addition, there will be tax breaks, after the Energy Ministry consults with the Finance Ministry.

The Energy Ministry will brief Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra on Tuesday afternoon on the rise in world oil prices after the political turmoil in Egypt. The ministry can still cap the retail diesel price at Bt30 a litre as the Oil Fund still shows a surplus of Bt4 billion. However, the crude-oil price is expected to rise to US$106-108 a barrel late this year on softening demand after the United States produces more oil and gas from shale. Moreover, the winter season in Europe typically reduces the demand for oil for transporting goods.

As for the electricity cost in the second half of this year, it is likely that the Ft will rise by about Bt2.80 per unit to reflect the higher costs caused by the weak baht and the higher price of natural gas. With support from the Electricity Generating Authority of Thailand, the Ft rate could be maintained for a bit longer, Pongsak said.

Beginning on September 1, the price of liquefied petroleum gas for the household sector will begin rising by Bt0.50 per kilogram per month until the increases total Bt6 per kilo, which will result in the price of cooking gas rising from Bt18.13 per kilo to Bt24.82. Pongsak said this would not adversely affect low-income households that consume no more than 90 units of electricity, or about 7.5 million households without access to electricity, as they can still buy cooking gas (a maximum of 6kg per month) at the current price.

This is interesting. I think my bill runs at about 3.8THB/"unit" and this feed-in-tariff will be at Bt6.69 per unit. I recently started a new little solar project to keep myself busy. I bought a couple of 280W poly solar panels from Amorn for about $0.70/watt (discounted to $0.63/watt on 10 or more panels). Amazing how the price has dropped here in the last year. I just received (via ebay) a couple of cheap Chinese grid-tie inverters and hopefully will hook them up soon. If this feed-in-tariff plan goes ahead I will definitely consider going all out on this - as in a 4-5Kw system. The Thai government sending me a check every month Who would have believed it. I know, don't count your chickens, and all that.

rjj - I don't wish ANY bad luck on anyone but I would guess the panels from Amorn are defects/seconds at that price and I doubt they will produce as claimed. As far as the "cheap Chinese grid-tie inverters" they will probably fail in short order. The weakest link in the 'Solar chain' is the inverter; the only way to avoid (IMHO) constant hassles is to purchase quality.

Are the Chinese inverters you purchased microinverters (one inverter attached to each panel)?

I've studied residental solar for a number of years and may install a system at my house.

Thailand already has a feed-in program (since 2006) but I don't think it applies to single-family residential.

My biggest worry is Thai Customs; holding my panels hostage for their tea money........stinking buggers.

Please PM me when you're up and running......I'd love to see your solar project! I hope I'm wrong and your system works for many years to come.......

my reading of the news clip, not sure it applies to households, as didnt say something about 10 megwatt up...you wont produce anywhere near that from a reidential home...I did hear somewhere that Thailand is going to push for solar..

chinese v USA/ Aust... I have had my system since 1996, still going strong with the two USA panels, however the USA Trace Controller had to be replaced after I fiddled with it and changed the settings..it was replaced by a Chinese Xrantex Controller which has performed without fault for must be ten years soon...however I did buy a 2000w Chinese Inverter later, to convert my 12V to 240v, but it didnt last long at all...The chinese are new at this game..I would go Australian ( OUTBACK ) if I was putting in a good system ...a cheap chinese is ok for a small system and for learning about solar, but best to go good stuff so it will last and not cause problems..if you go inverter, go Pure Sinewave, and not Modified Sinewave, you will need a 2400watt Inverter or bigger for a house system, get one with a battery charger built in, so you can give your batteries a bubble up once a month, to get any corrodison off the plates..

good batteries are just as important..

Thanks for the feedback LoveDaBlues and makka.

Makka, the article that Bumper pasted above says ...
"promote electricity generation via solar panels installed on rooftops of houses"...
and
"General residences will be entitled to support of Bt6.69 per unit"

I read "general residences" to mean houses. The rate is higher for the houses, so I guess they really are targetting house rooftops. At these prices $0.22/unit it would be a money maker.

I was going to order some panels from China but then saw these in Amorn at about the same price per watt that I could get from China so I thought I'd try them. I have read a few articles about how the massive competetition in the solar panel manufacturing industry has caused a collapse in quaility. Many reports of people buying panels with 25 yr warranties that fail in a matter of months. Most panels made years back would last the 25 years they were warranted at. Also, Amorn said these panels only had a 3 month warranty from them. So, yes, I expected they are defective in some way. They will probably fail in less than five years. At least I am putting that into my system calcs. They are from SunTech, "the biggest solar panel producer" as they are want to say. So, theoretically they have a 25 yr warranty. But, I doubt they will care about a guy with two broken panels as they deal with near bankruptcy Anyway, when/if they fail early I will try to fix them myself. Not like I don't have the time.

The grid tie inverters. The ones I chose do have a 1yr warranty. The ebay seller said I can also get "free replacement parts forever" LOL we'll see how that goes. Not counting on much help there. I can troubleshoot and repair them myself if they are simple problems like blown MOSFETs or whatnot. Apparently blown MOSFETs are a large part of the failures. I saw on Youtube that the most common problems with these cheap GTI inverters is sequencing the power (ie. AC on before DC on, AC off before DC off) so I have made a checklist for myself so I don't accidentaly blow them whilst I'm farting around. The other big issue I saw from Youtube is that if you load the inverters to near their design spec they will fail within a few months, but if you load them at say 50% of the design spec, they will last a few years. Makes sense. So I bought 500W inverters (one for each panel). After panel positional losses, temperature derating, wire losses, I suspect the inverter will be getting maybe 195W input. About 39% of the inverter's design spec. Another thing is keeping the inverters cool so I am using some small 12v fans and placing the inverter/control panel in a cooled area of the house.

As this is just for experimenting and fun, I also bought a very cheap chinese MPPT charge controller so that I can keep some batteries charged to back up the UPS's internal battery. 3-way switches some breakers, and an ELB on the GTI outputs (so I don't kill myself).

I'm mostly just having a bit of fun and trying to learn. Like I am starting to cut metal and weld my own racking for this... I'm not to familiar with welding, so it will probably be the first thing that fails Although looking at the weld joints the supposed professional welders/workers make here makes me hopeful mine will not be much worse.

Back to the orginal thread, at $0.22/kwh (or thereabouts) and a system cost of $0.08/kwh over 25 years that could be a nice little income stream... and I could get a good power backup system on the side. Of course as soon as another political party takes over control, they might stop the program, who knows.

Automatically assuming "Made In China" means low quality might not be correct in all cases. This report shows that the quality of "some" Chinese inverters are catching and even passing the top western brands.

http://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/sung ... r-testing/

Althought the ones I bought are probably garbage

I never meant to imply that ALL products produced in China are crap. They DO produce a lot of crap across all industries; the challenge is finding the QUALITY products and QUALITY COMPANY that will offer and stand by a decent warranty. Rather than deal with this "Chinese hassle" factor when I go solar it will be with long-standing companies where there is no question of reliability or honoring their warranty.

You guys (rjj & Makka) are miles ahead of me as I've only researched and have no "hands-on" experience.

maaka; I'd like to see your system if the drive is not too far, I live close to Udon Thani town center. PM me if this is okay with you; if not no problem. Pretty impressive you've been playing with solar since 1996; the technology has changed drastically since then.

A bit of information concerning solar farms in Thailand. The "Godmother" of Thai solar farms is Ms Wandee Khunchornyakong. She nearly failed in her efforts to raise the funds needed for her first solar farm but finally convinced Kyocera (Japan) to partner. The rest is history; her first project (April 2010) was generating 100 million baht in revenue. By May of 2011 she had loans totaling 21 billion baht. I think they are looking into expanding into India, Malaysia and Indonesia; good luck with the politics lol.

Even on a small scale (say 20-100kw system) I think there is money to be made but it looks like this market is not open as they only want to deal with 10mw and higher. I assume if they decide to offer feed-in from residential they will "cap" the amount allowed.

It's a shame the technology is here but politics (as usual) prohibits the little guy from contributing or benefiting.

LoveDaBlues wrote:A bit of information concerning solar farms in Thailand. The "Godmother" of Thai solar farms is Ms Wandee Khunchornyakong. She nearly failed in her efforts to raise the funds needed for her first solar farm but finally convinced Kyocera (Japan) to partner. The rest is history; her first project (April 2010) was generating 100 million baht in revenue. By May of 2011 she had loans totaling 21 billion baht. I think they are looking into expanding into India, Malaysia and Indonesia; good luck with the politics lol.

Even on a small scale (say 20-100kw system) I think there is money to be made but it looks like this market is not open as they only want to deal with 10mw and higher. I assume if they decide to offer feed-in from residential they will "cap" the amount allowed.

It's a shame the technology is here but politics (as usual) prohibits the little guy from contributing or benefiting.

I was very interested in a solar power system. I wasn't interested in saving or making money as such. I have a small farm that is off the grid. I went to the renewable energy show at Bitec and looked at many different solar panels (modules). Quite frankly they all looked about the same regardless where they were made. I ended up getting two quotes from two companies. One was Annex Power in Bangkok. A 2,000 watt system installed was quoted at 422,222 baht. That system is actually too small for an average house and I would have to sell the farm to pay for it. That company got marked off my list.

The second quote was from ABO in Chiang Mai. They were about half the price for a comparable system however they did not quote a turn key installation. ABO sounds more knowledgeable but no way would I want to attempt to install the system myself. I would want the system installed and would want to see it working before paying for it. The terms from Annex were 50 percent down upon ordering and the balance upon completion.

The main power requirement is for a one HP submersible water pump. I now use a 5,000 watt generator to run that pump. I estimate that it costs about 50 baht per hour to run the generator. ABO came up with a DC water pump that only runs when the sun is shining. No batteries or inverter are required. That system designed to pump 15 cubic meters of water per sunny day and cost about 120,000 baht. Again, I would have to install it myself. That price is more in line but the facts are that I can buy a LOT of gasoline for that much money. I already have the water pump installed and have the generator so no more investment is needed. I would dread pulling the AC pump out of the well while it is working fine. It is down the casing about 38 meters. If I had I not already had that pump and generator working, I would be much more interested in a DC pump system.

Just for information the price from ABO for the solar panels was 35 baht per watt. Much cheaper than the Annex price.

too true rjj04, it does say residential...sorry my mind seems to race ahead of my eyes these days, and I am sure words say something, only to double check to see they say something else..must be old age, or cabin fever perhaps, or dementure setting in..or just to many problems on my mind..

can I ask why you want two inverters, one off each panel ? are you trying to do away with storage batteries..

LoveDaBlues, there is nothing I would like more than someone to come a calling, other than those Jevohs once a year, but alas I am a good 5000km away from Udon, firmly ensconed on a remote paradise island, in my cabin backed into the trees, so coming to check out my system oyiiiiiiiii..is probably off the cards, but perhaps I can download some photos if I have any to give you an idea...however, I will be in Udon next week, and will be riding around Udon/Phen/Sangkhom, Phonprisai/ Nongkhai, so you never know we might catch up for a chin wagg about solar..

yes if your pump and genny work a treat, dont change a winning team..

if you want to compare prices...trademe.co.nz ...is a secondhand auction site, sells new and old...just search , solar, inverters, panels, etc etc....NZ dollar is about 23baht..

I got about 200 sqm of southern exposed roof, if I could find a system economically enough to install and maintain, I would. A bit ignorant on the subject myself. Not concerned about being on the grid and making money, but just getting rid of 4000+ a month electric bill would be nice.

From my research at this point in time my opinion is a 'stand alone' system is not the way to go; still too costly. Of course, if you can't tie into the grid you have no choice if you decide to take the solar route. I would need (roughly) a 5kw system.

At this point in Thailand I don't think there is a residential feed-in program; if I'm wrong I would love to find that out!
It seems the residential option is only in the discussion stage.

Given the above the numbers still work (I think) but the unknowns are scary. Ex. - I order the panels, etc. I want from Japan, China, USA, or ?? and Thai Customs demands more tea money. My friend who lives in Korat recently sent a container from USA. He had paid up-front all the fees yet Thai Customs held him up for another 200,000 baht.
Unless there is some form of inexpensive 'shipping insurance' that includes more than just lost or damages goods I'm in limbo for now. I haven't checked on something like this; perhaps it exists?

I believe the stand alone system is the only way to go..

my son in australia has a $90,000 grid tie in solar system, sure has no powerbills and makes a wee bit of money, but when the power goes off so does his house...seems to defeat the whole purpose of having solar..at least with my system, when the city has a power cut, my house is still glowing, and I am my own boss..

there are different ways of doing it, 12volt, 24volt, 220-240volt..you can run some of the house if you like on a smaller system, or you can go the full monty and run everything..I am like Glait, I have a generator for my washing machine / vaccum cleaner, power tools, and the music, tv, lights , marine water pumps are 12volt...2 panels, 1 truck battery, and a contoller ( no inverter)

my mate along the valley has half a dozen panels, 240v inverter, and four storage batteries, and a genny...my old boss, has a mansion called Awana House, he has 16 panels, inverter, and a pile of batteries, and a lister genny, but he loves his freezers, big boys toys, and has a maid...so there are ways to get started, and even use a genny, or a windmill, or add in more when you can afford..

maaka wrote:I believe the stand alone system is the only way to go..

my son in australia has a $90,000 grid tie in solar system, sure has no powerbills and makes a wee bit of money, but when the power goes off so does his house...seems to defeat the whole purpose of having solar..at least with my system, when the city has a power cut, my house is still glowing, and I am my own boss..

there are different ways of doing it, 12volt, 24volt, 220-240volt..you can run some of the house if you like on a smaller system, or you can go the full monty and run everything..I am like Glait, I have a generator for my washing machine / vaccum cleaner, power tools, and the music, tv, lights , marine water pumps are 12volt...2 panels, 1 truck battery, and a contoller ( no inverter)

my mate along the valley has half a dozen panels, 240v inverter, and four storage batteries, and a genny...my old boss, has a mansion called Awana House, he has 16 panels, inverter, and a pile of batteries, and a lister genny, but he loves his freezers, big boys toys, and has a maid...so there are ways to get started, and even use a genny, or a windmill, or add in more when you can afford..

I think where one lives, system size, government rebates, etc. have to be factored in to determine whether or not to go 'off grid' or 'on grid'. It's true that for safety reasons a grid-tie system shuts down power to your house when the grid fails. However, in my location we seldom lose power and if it were a big concern I could always get a generator or have a battery back-up system. Some folks like chocolate ice cream and some like strawberry; each must choose his own path and both can be right (for them)......

Here's a couple of links that address the on/off grid question:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Solar---Off-G ... &id=483689

http://aprs.org/off-grid-maybe.html

maaka wrote: can I ask why you want two inverters, one off each panel ? are you trying to do away with storage batteries..

I'm not sure I understand the question. They are grid-tie, so one way to look at grid-tie is as a battery storage offset for your system. Let's say you produce 20kwhs of power between sunrise to sunset, but you consume only 10kwhs during sunrise to sunset. So, the grid serves as a battery. Obviously at this point in time with two panels of 560watts and I am consuming 20kwh/day, they are a drop in the bucket, as no power will be going back onto the grid (unless I am away from home of course).

If you are asking why two grid tie inverters rather than one inverter, well, I just thought that these inverters are cheap low end devices that might last a lot longer if they were used at less than half their design spec. That is, running them all out at their max design spec they might burn up in say three months, but if I run them at around 50% they might last much more than double that time, say 4-5 years. I am taking this from some youtube videos, so take it for what it is worth... not much perhaps. I guess I will see in a year or so of running this setup.


As far as grid-tie vs off-grid, I am trying to do a little of both. I was thinking in the end having 4-5kw of grid-tie with maybe half of that also wired for off-grid/backup power (solar CC, batteries, and standard DC-to-AC inverter).

glalt
I think there is very little competition here for installers, and little demand as well I suppose, so getting a turn-key system is going to cost big bucks. 2000watts (I imagine that is panel watts, which in the end could end up being 1000watts depending on the quality of parts used) for 422,000 THB or 211 THB/watt or $7/watt.

I picked up a few website links to installers, I'll just put them here just in case you missed them in your hunt...
http://www.esansolar.com/
http://www.thaisolarfuture.com/index.php

Oh, I'm sorry makka, I think I really misunderstood the question. These grid-tie inverters are MPPT inverters. They are designed to be connected to the solar panels, and NOT to the batteries. So, the theory for my setup is that the grid-tie inverters would be connected to the panels say 99% of the time as the grid is up and all is in order. When the grid goes down I would manually switch over the panel outputs to the solar MPPT charge controller(s). The charge controllers would charge the batteries, then I would manually disconnect from the mains and switch on a standard DC-AC inverter that would consume power from the batteries and provide power to the house. Actually I only have a MSW (modified sine wave) DC-AC inverter at the moment so I could only power non-inductive/capactive type loads (eg rice cooker, electric kettle, electric stove, hot water shower, etc) or power factor corrected loads. Oh yes, I also have a switch to be able to connect an AC charger to the batteries to keep them topped up whilst the grid is connected. Needless to say, I have a checklist so I don't mistakenly switch on the wrong components and have a small disaster to deal with. It seems a lot more complicated then it really is. A small fire extinguisher is standing by just in case

Hopefully I will have the best of both worlds, grid-tie and a bit of backup power to boot. This thread is a little off topic now. After a few months of running my little setup I'll post an update somewhere, if anybody is interested.

Hopefully this "solar energy incentive" program has moved on by then.

The main power requirement is for a one HP submersible water pump. I now use a 5,000 watt generator to run that pump. I estimate that it costs about 50 baht per hour to run the generator. ABO came up with a DC water pump that only runs when the sun is shining. No batteries or inverter are required. That system designed to pump 15 cubic meters of water per sunny day and cost about 120,000 baht. Again, I would have to install it myself. That price is more in line but the facts are that I can buy a LOT of gasoline for that much money. I already have the water pump installed and have the generator so no more investment is needed. I would dread pulling the AC pump out of the well while it is working fine. It is down the casing about 38 meters. If I had I not already had that pump and generator working, I would be much more interested in a DC pump system.

This would make a huge difference at the farm, keeping good clear water would be a great thing with the fish. Since I haven't done anything yet. I will wait it our and see what eh Government does. Power outages at the farm are no big deal.

The home could be a very different deal, as we get older may be some need for medical equipment in the equipment in the home. I know one person in that situation and has to have a back generator. That would be good for the battery back up. My understanding is those are not cheap.

A friend ha a system in Chiang Mai, he didn't buy for the U.S. and it does seem like he did buy f5rom China. That being said he is a retired Merchant Marine Engineer. He is always tinkering with it,. not something I could do. Installing one myself our with local help I don't think so.

DEMCO was one of the first big players, here in Thailand. But they sure won't be doing homes.

Well I will wait and see an hope for the best. Thanks for the help guys.

rjj - sounds like a great setup. Looks like you're doing something similar to this but on a smaller scale
and sans the automatic switching: http://www.wholesalesolar.com/system/sm ... ackup.html