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ClimateGate busts things wide open

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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby ronan01 » March 3, 2010, 6:21 pm

Memorandum submitted by the Royal Statistical Society (CRU 47)

1. The Royal Statistical Society (RSS) is the UK's only professional and learned society devoted to the interests of statistics and statisticians. Founded in 1834 it is also one of the most influential and prestigious statistical societies in the world. The Society has members in over 50 countries worldwide and is active in a wide range of areas both directly and indirectly pertaining to the study and application of statistics. It aims to promote public understanding of statistics and provide professional support to users of statistics and to statisticians.

2. The Society welcomes this opportunity to submit evidence to the Science and Technology committee on the disclosure of climate data from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia inquiry.

3. The Society's response relates to the first of the questions on which the committee invites submissions: "What are the implications of the disclosures for the integrity of scientific research?"

4. The RSS believes that the debate on global warming is best served by having the models used and the data on which they are based in the public domain. Where such information is publicly available it is possible independently to verify results. The ability to verify models using publicly available data is regarded as being of much greater importance than the specific content of email exchanges between researchers.

5. The position of the RSS regarding public dissemination of scientific data is that where the results of scientific analyses have been published or are otherwise in the public domain, the raw data, and associated meta-data, used for these analyses should, within reason, also be made available.

6. The qualification, within reason, is important because there are some cases where preservation of confidentiality is required to protect the rights of individuals to privacy. There are also occasions where the need to protect sensitive areas means that publication of all details is inappropriate. An example would be the exact locations of rare breeding species. Similarly, there are other occasions where overriding commercial interests may suggest that publication is inappropriate.

7. However, it is the view of the RSS that such commercial interest will only justifiably be invoked infrequently. An analogy with the common approach to patents is appropriate here. Companies may choose to keep their research secret and not patent it. However, if a patent is sought, the details of the invention must be revealed. Analogously, in the field of drug development, a pharmaceutical company is reimbursed not just because of the molecules it has discovered but also because of the knowledge it has acquired regarding the effects of those molecules. It cannot justifiably seek reimbursement for that knowledge and not make it available. Hence, by the point at which it seeks a commercial return, the data on efficacy and safety should be in the public domain.

8. It is also clearly unreasonable to require that any given scientist having published some research is then condemned to answer each and every question that might possibly arise from it.. For example, requests under the Freedom of Information act or the Environmental Information Regulations could overwhelm small groups of scientists. To avoid this it is best if data are stored in data centres that are professionally run and properly funded.

9. More widely, the basic case for publication of data includes that science progresses as an ongoing debate and not by a series of authoritative and oracular pronouncements and that the quality of that debate is best served by ensuring that all parties have access to the facts. It is well understood, for example, that peer review cannot guarantee that what is published is 'correct'. The best guarantor of scientific quality is that others are able to examine in detail the arguments that have been used and not just their published conclusions. It is important that experiments and calculations can be repeated to verify their conclusions. If data, or the methods used, are withheld, it is impossible to do this.

10. The RSS believes that a crucial step in improving the quality of the debate on global warming will be to place the data, the analysis methods and the models in the public domain.
______

Royal Statistical Society

February 2010

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... uc4702.htm
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby ronan01 » March 3, 2010, 6:28 pm

Extract from "Memorandum submitted by the Royal Statistical Society (CRU 47)":

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/p ... uc4702.htm

More widely, the basic case for publication of data includes that science progresses as an ongoing debate and not by a series of authoritative and oracular pronouncements and that the quality of that debate is best served by ensuring that all parties have access to the facts. It is well understood, for example, that peer review cannot guarantee that what is published is ‘correct’. The best guarantor of scientific quality is that others are able to examine in detail the arguments that have been used and not just their published conclusions. It is important that experiments and calculations can be repeated to verify their conclusions. If data, or the methods used, are withheld, it is impossible to do this.

Anybody care to comment on the "peer review and the majority of scientists agree" mantra as a quick and nasty put-down of those who questioned the orthodoxy of global warming "science"?
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby WBU ALUM » March 3, 2010, 6:50 pm

It is well understood, for example, that peer review cannot guarantee that what is published is ‘correct’.

You just gotta love common sense. =D> :-"
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby rick » March 3, 2010, 7:56 pm

Peer review is not a full, in depth analysis of the work done by an author. That would require all the work to be replicated or analysed in detail and would take years. it is about does the science presented make sense, does it meet reasonable standards etc. But some what more thorough than what an editor does in a newspaper! After publication, if someone does spot problems, well they can analyse that and compare it to there own research. That is the idea, one article may stimulate thought and new ideas elsewhere. But i am all for the data being available, within reason. Problem is, data can be faked or misread; sometimes it is done by someone because he is under pressure to produce results. But when your data comes from many sources, you can reasonably assume most of it is good. Any blatantly incorrect data will stand out. If some sets of data have too much unreliable data, you ignore it. Of course, this can mean that 2 people will come up with different results. Can happen.

Also, in any data set you get outliers, results which do not fit. In complex natural systems why can be hard to determine. That is why you look for trends, not individual results. That is why indicators of long term change are very useful, because they are not greatly affected by a few days of funny data. if sea ice melts earlier most years, probably warmer, BUT maybe another reason. If animal distributions start moving, there is a reason, but not always temperature. But such changes have effects on plants, animals, humans. Might not affect you, but someone out there is suffering due to these changes.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby ronan01 » March 5, 2010, 11:31 am

Sceptics Now Welcome

Over the last few months there has been a remarkable change of tone among the climate science community. Until recently sceptics were treated as barely worth the consideration of ‘real’ climate scientists. The CRU emails showed clearly how attempts were made to prevent the publication of any paper questioning climate orthodoxy or, should such a paper have been published, to prevent it appearing in any IPCC publication. That has now changed; or at least the rhetoric has changed; only time will tell if the underlying philosophy has changed.


Continued here:

http://www.climatedata.info/Discussions ... 9578165145
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby BobHelm » March 5, 2010, 8:17 pm

Climate change human link evidence 'stronger'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8550090.stm

A review from the UK Met Office says it is becoming clearer that human activities are causing climate change.

It says the evidence is stronger now than when the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change carried out its last assessment in 2007.


Dr Stott denies that the study has been published as part of a fight back by the climate research community.

"We started writing this paper a year ago. I think it's important to communicate to people what the science is showing and that's why I'm talking about this paper."
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby WBU ALUM » March 5, 2010, 10:16 pm

Another iceberg. This time, on the port side.

Climate scientists plot to fight back at skeptics

“Appeal to their own authority” is a fairly elegant way of pointing out the hubris in AGW advocates who declared the science “settled” and began to brand everyone who questioned it as “deniers.” Stephen Dinan reports that Stanford researcher Stephen Schneider accused Senator James Inhofe of “McCarthyesque” attacks for urging a criminal investigation into potential fraud in the AGW movement. Schneider must have missed the calls from AGW advocates to have any weatherman who expressed doubt about global warming to be decertified as meteorologists, or questioning the patriotism of Americans who dare to question the sputtering consensus. Nothing McCarthyesque about that, is there?
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby ronan01 » March 6, 2010, 6:00 am

In ten years all important animal life in the sea will be extinct. Large areas of coastline will have to be evacuated because of the stench of dead fish.” – Paul Ehrlich, Earth Day, 1970

"Civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind. We are in an environmental crisis which threatens the survival of this nation, and of the world as a suitable place of human habitation." – Barry Commoner (Washington University), Earth Day, 1970
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby jackspratt » March 6, 2010, 8:31 am

WBU ALUM wrote:Another iceberg. This time, on the port side.

Climate scientists plot to fight back at skeptics

“Appeal to their own authority” is a fairly elegant way of pointing out the hubris in AGW advocates who declared the science “settled” and began to brand everyone who questioned it as “deniers.” Stephen Dinan reports that Stanford researcher Stephen Schneider accused Senator James Inhofe of “McCarthyesque” attacks for urging a criminal investigation into potential fraud in the AGW movement. Schneider must have missed the calls from AGW advocates to have any weatherman who expressed doubt about global warming to be decertified as meteorologists, or questioning the patriotism of Americans who dare to question the sputtering consensus. Nothing McCarthyesque about that, is there?


Well that would be 1 AGW advocate (Heidi Cullen) calling for decertification, and 1 AGW advocate (Bill Nye) "questioning the patriotism".

Does this look familiar?: http://looktruenorth.com/limited-govern ... ptics.html

“Appeal to their own authority” is a fairly elegant way of pointing out the hubris in AGW advocates who declared the science “settled” and began to brand everyone who questioned it as “deniers.” Stephen Dinan reports that Stanford researcher Stephen Schneider accused Senator James Inhofe of “McCarthyesque” attacks for urging a criminal investigation into potential fraud in the AGW movement. Schneider must have missed the calls from AGW advocates to have any weatherman who expressed doubt about global warming to be decertified as meteorologists, or questioning the patriotism of Americans who dare to question the sputtering consensus. Nothing McCarthyesque about that, is there?


Did you overlook something, WBU? :-"
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby WBU ALUM » March 6, 2010, 8:35 am

ronan01 wrote:In ten years all important animal life in the sea will be extinct. Large areas of coastline will have to be evacuated because of the stench of dead fish.” – Paul Ehrlich, Earth Day, 1970

"Civilization will end within 15 or 30 years unless immediate action is taken against problems facing mankind. We are in an environmental crisis which threatens the survival of this nation, and of the world as a suitable place of human habitation." – Barry Commoner (Washington University), Earth Day, 1970

ronan, I'm glad you pulled out some of these blasts from the past. :lol:
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby jackspratt » March 6, 2010, 9:01 am

People complain that we are buying — importing from the Middle East — oil and gas. And then they find out that we have it all right here. We don’t have to do that. If their argument there is “Well, we don’t want to use oil and gas because we think it pollutes” — which it doesn’t but if that’s their argument, then why are we willing to import it from Saudi Arabia and other countries in the Middle East?


Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK) 27 July 2009

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/07/27/inhofe-pollution/
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby WBU ALUM » March 6, 2010, 9:48 am

Simon Carr: Scientist may find himself a convenient sacrificial lamb

Revelations from his hacked emails have supported a suspicion that he is making a case rather than reporting the evidence. The price tag on the case he is making runs to trillions, so the stakes are high.

In that light, it doesn't look good that his unit has resisted requests to release their data, methodologies, their codes and programmes for general inspection. It's a big Trust Me, a committee member observed.

"I'm a scientist," Labour's Graham Stringer said. "If I want to check your results, I can't."

Dr Jones fiddled with that allegation (he's not without Westminster talent) but the committee didn't look persuaded. His reply to a request for information was quoted: "Why should I make data available to you when you only want to find something wrong with it?" Stringer concluded: "That is unscientific!"


More interesting by the day.
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby BobHelm » March 6, 2010, 10:10 am

Yes great quotes ronan01, I have seen them 'doing the rounds' on the anti global warming sites.

Sadly, to someone like me they do a great dis-service to any arguments that side of the fence wish to give to the general public. Since the event that sparked this thread (Climategate) the antis have tried to grab the high moral ground with 'look at the lying scientists" stance. Quotations like this do no one any favours.
Neither scientist was issuing their statement from a global warming perspective.
Paul Ehrlich was a biologist who believed that a massive growth in world population would overwhelm it. Billions, he predicted would die of starvation.
Nothing to do with if temperatures went up or down or sideways. :D :D .
However, surprisingly some right wing organizations are still supporting Ehrlich's claims, although usually they believe it only applies to people of certain religious views.
Barry Commoner was also a biologist who claimed that man was living out of step with nature & destroying the environment he was living in. Particularly the mass use of insecticides, the atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons.
His stance, many believe, lead to a spat of legislation in USA during the 1970s as Congress passed laws for clean air, pure water, and the protection of the environment. Some might say that Commoner was indeed correct & that only actions taken by Government prevented pollution overwhelming some countries. Some of the river legislation passed at this time in the UK have succeeded in totally reversing the 'dead' waterways like The Thames.
This was all about pollution, nothing to do with temperature..
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby cookie » March 6, 2010, 11:53 am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8550090.stm

Climate change human link evidence 'stronger'
By Pallab Ghosh
Science correspondent, BBC News



A review from the UK Met Office says it is becoming clearer that human activities are causing climate change.

It says the evidence is stronger now than when the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change carried out its last assessment in 2007.

The analysis, published in the Wiley Interdisciplinary Reviews Climate Change Journal, has assessed 110 research papers on the subject.

It says the Earth is changing rapidly, probably because of greenhouse gases.

In 2007 the IPCC's report concluded that there was "unequivocal" evidence that the Earth was warming and it was likely that it was due to burning of fossil fuels.

Since then the evidence that human activities are responsible for a rise in temperatures has increased, according to this new assessment by Dr Peter Stott and colleagues at the UK Met Office.

The Met Office study comes at a time when some have questioned the entire basis of climate science following recent controversies over the handling of research findings by the IPCC and the Climate Research Unit at the University of East Anglia.

Dr Stott denies that the study has been published as part of a fight back by the climate research community.

"We started writing this paper a year ago. I think it's important to communicate to people what the science is showing and that's why I'm talking about this paper."



The study, which looks at research published since the IPCC's report, has found that changes in Arctic sea ice, atmospheric moisture, saltiness of parts of the Atlantic Ocean and temperature changes in the Antarctic are consistent with human influence on our climate.

"What this study shows is that the evidence has strengthened for human influence on climate and we know that because we've looked at evidence across the climate system and what this shows very clearly is a consistent picture of a warming world," said Dr Stott.

The study brings together other research from a range of disciplines.

It's important to communicate to people what the science is showing
Dr Peter Stott

"We hadn't [until now] looked in detail at how the climate system was changing," says Dr Stott.

"[Our paper looks at] not just the temperatures but also the reducing Arctic sea ice and it includes changing rainfall patterns and it includes the fact that the atmosphere is getting more humid.

"And all these different aspects of the climate system are adding up to a picture of the effects of a human influence on our climate."

The Met Office study said that it was harder to find a firm link between climate change and individual extreme weather conditions - even though models predicted that extreme events were more likely.

According to the report: "Extremes pose a particular challenge, since rare events are by definition, poorly sampled in the historical record and many challenges remain for robustly attributing regional changes in extreme events such as droughts, floods and hurricanes."
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Re: ClimateGate busts things wide open

Postby rufus » March 6, 2010, 1:49 pm

Yes, a similar Australian study points to the same conclusions. The denailists will have a lot to answer for; the only problem is that most are so old that they won't be around when the earth is fxxxx up.
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