ClimateGate busts things wide open

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BobHelm
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ClimateGate busts things wide open

Post by BobHelm » December 30, 2011, 9:28 am

I never claimed (neither did Rick) that all of Lake Chads problems were due to climate change.

However, even after your quote, which I assume you agree with, as you quoted it...says..
partly due to decreasing rainfall in the hydrologically active upstream basins
& yet you cannot agree that some of it is as a result of climate change.

That is the real difference between us Ronan..
I have never claimed that all of the World's problems are due to climate change, just, maybe, some of them...
You continually contend that no such thing exists &, therefore, no problem is caused by it..

It is for that, idiotic, reason that you are indeed, a denier, with all that means...



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Post by rick » December 30, 2011, 1:23 pm

Ok, looks like there is a bit of a dispute here! I well know that Lake Chad has fluctuated considerably during geological time; once was as big as the Caspian sea i read somewhere. But, although some fluctuation was possibly due to geological changes, most was presumably due to CLIMATE CHANGE. Now of course this is all historic and nothing to do with current global warming, but it is still Climate change. I have also seen many dried out lakes in North Africa which dated from the Neolithic era (judging by the archaeological evidence i found). Now, climate change mattered little to Humans when there were only a few million on the planet, you just moved. No longer possible.

So whatever the causes (lets not get bogged down in the usual Anthropogenic warming debate) Climate change these days is an issue, whether it is natural variation or not. There has been warming in the last century over much of the planet, and whatever the cause, it is an issue the impacts of which need to be assessed. It is right and proper that humanity tries to mitigate the impact it has on the planet; it's the only home we've got. I have nothing against Geo-engineering solutions (although their environmental impact needs to be investigated). Now, Carbon Dioxide levels are going up, Temperatures are going up, sea levels are going up, these WILL cause environmental changes and WILL cause refugees. Or is this not true Ronan?

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Post by rick » December 31, 2011, 7:56 pm

Meanwhile, the results are out, 2011 second hottest on record in UK. I expect world results will take a bit longer. No sign of cooling yet.....

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Post by ronan01 » January 3, 2012, 7:04 am

rick wrote:Meanwhile, the results are out, 2011 second hottest on record in UK. I expect world results will take a bit longer. No sign of cooling yet.....
2011 second hottest on record in UK!!! Horror!!!!

"If there’s no action before 2012, that’s too late. What we do in the next two to three years will determine our future. This is the defining moment." (Rajendra Pachauri Nov. 2007) -

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/world ... wanted=all

Well there you have it - it is getting hotter and hotter and without action before 2012 its all too late - so I guess its all too late - I mean its pretty hard to argue with Rajendra, he is the head of the IPCC and knows exactly how serious it is, thats why he warned us all in 2007.

And we have done nothing and have not returned to stone age living conditions - so its too late.

Repent ye sinners, the end is nigh, soon we will experience thermageddon:

It will be too hot
The ice caps will melt
The sea level will rise (10, 20, 30m? take your pick)
Hordes of climate refugees will assail our shores
The hot places will get hotter
The wet places will get wetter
The dry places will get dryer
The snow will disappear - especially in the UK - the met office told us
Everything will get worse (there are no winners in climate change - only loser)
Food will run out
Species will become extinct

We are all doomed because we did not act when told. Start spending your money ladies and gents - its only a matter of days, or weeks, or months ...... well a couple of years at least till it all ends - but we are all still doomed.

I just hope they will give us another last chance .... or three.

And all because of CO2

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Post by ronan01 » January 11, 2012, 12:04 pm

CANADA FIGHTS BACK

Open letter: Radicals threaten resource development

http://opinion.financialpost.com/2012/0 ... velopment/

Unfortunately, there are environmental and other radical groups that would seek to block this opportunity to diversify our trade. Their goal is to stop any major project, no matter what the cost to Canadian families in lost jobs and economic growth. No forestry. No mining. No oil. No gas. No more hydroelectric dams.

These groups threaten to hijack our regulatory system to achieve their radical ideological agenda. They seek to exploit any loophole they can find, stacking public hearings with bodies to ensure that delays kill good projects. They use funding from foreign special-interest groups to undermine Canada’s national economic interest. They attract jet-setting celebrities with some of the largest personal carbon footprints in the world to lecture Canadians not to develop our natural resources.


As usual the green eco-loons will do everything to stop the use of shale oil / gas and tar sands because it releases CO2.

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Post by ronan01 » January 19, 2012, 11:44 am

CANADA: CLIMATE CRIMINAL (according to the eco-loon nutjobs at Greenpeacce)

http://www.greenpeace.org/canada/en/Blo ... log/38572/

I think the greatest fear of the eco-loon nutjopbs is that Canada will lead the way for others nations to decouple from the AGW scam.

The irony of it all: Greenpeace eco-terrorists labeling Canada a criminal because they wish to develop and sell oil.

Time for Greenpeace to have its charity status revoked in Australia, they did it in New Zealand. Greenpeace is not a charity - it is more a cross between an extremist political party and a terrorist group.

Greenpeace - your taxes at work, whether you like it or not.

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Post by BobHelm » January 19, 2012, 7:27 pm

So which claims in the actual article are incorrect ronan?

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Post by jackspratt » January 19, 2012, 7:53 pm

It seems that Obama has (for the moment at least) joined with the eco-loon nutjobs, and knocked back the Canada-US tar sands oil pipeline.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-19/a ... tion=world

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Post by ronan01 » January 20, 2012, 6:39 am

BobHelm wrote:So which claims in the actual article are incorrect ronan?
That Canada is a climate criminal - silly question

And Hansens cliam it is game over for the planet if they build a pipeline to/through the US - silly alarmism - this is the same man that claims the "oceans will boil" in abouit 100 years if we dont stop emmitting CO2

Canada a climate criminal - what a lot of tosh.

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Post by BobHelm » January 20, 2012, 8:25 am

So you are not actually saying that the facts are wrong then ronan, just the conclusion...
Is that your standpoint??

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Post by ronan01 » January 20, 2012, 11:35 am

BobHelm wrote:So you are not actually saying that the facts are wrong then ronan, just the conclusion...
Is that your standpoint??
OK Bob try this:

"NASA climatologist James Hansen has warned that if the tar sands are fully exploited, “it is game over for the climate.”" Which means we are doomed, there is no going back.

Do you believe exploiting the canadian tar sands will be game over for the climate? Do you support this standpoint?

Do you also support Hansen that "the oceans will boil" because of CO2? Do you believe the oceans will boil?

Try a yes or no answer in each case.

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Post by ronan01 » January 20, 2012, 11:44 am

BobHelm wrote:So you are not actually saying that the facts are wrong then ronan, just the conclusion...
Is that your standpoint??
Oil and democracy do not generally mix,”

"Oil rich nations attract oil industry patrons, who tend to support dictators. Petro-states often lose local economic sovereignty, suffer human rights atrocities, and see their environments devastated."

I guess that explains the collapse of democracy in the USA after the discovery and exploitation of oil in the mid to late 19th century.

List the dicators in the USA from the time they dicovered and exploited oil, and explain to me how the USA is worse off since the mid 19th century as a result.

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Post by ronan01 » January 20, 2012, 11:57 am

Saving the planet one designer dress at a time:

http://fashion.telegraph.co.uk/article/ ... lenge.html

Many new red carpet events, with new eco-designers gowns each time, should offset the nasty canadian tar sands.

Pure greenwash.

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Post by BobHelm » January 20, 2012, 1:32 pm

ronan01 wrote:"NASA climatologist James Hansen has warned that if the tar sands are fully exploited, “it is game over for the climate.”" Which means we are doomed, there is no going back.

Do you believe exploiting the canadian tar sands will be game over for the climate? Do you support this standpoint?

Do you also support Hansen that "the oceans will boil" because of CO2? Do you believe the oceans will boil?

Try a yes or no answer in each case.
Ronan let us clear something up immediately.
You quoted this as a source & suggested that there is something hugely incorrect with it.
The piece is by, according to your link
Rex Weyler
While he does indeed quote a piece by
James Hansen
that is not, as far as I can see the basis of his complete argument.
Nowhere in the piece can I see any reference to
"the oceans will boil"
So I can only guess that this is another quote from somewhere completely different & nothing to do with this piece at all.

I found the piece about oil & democracy interesting to say the least.
It is not an idea that had occurred to me before but would need huge amounts more information backing up his argument before it would convince me.
His thoughts about Margaret Thatcher are, on the face of it, rather outlandish &, at a cursory glance looks like bending the facts to fit an opinion. Mrs. Thatcher was much more politically driven to break the Trade Unions than anything else &, although wasted by both Conservative & Labour Governments the significance of income from oil to the UK is rather overstated in his piece. The huge decline in manufacturing & mining that took place at the time had, I believe, a far, far greater impact.

As for you suggesting that the USA remains the pinnacle of Democracy rather depends upon how you view the word Democracy.
I think that many, if not most, Americans would consider that their freedoms have been significantly reduced from what they were 30 years ago.
Much of that is undoubtedly down to the method by which America elects its leaders & especially the huge role that 'pressure groups' & funding from big industry plays in US politics today.
That the oil industry plays a large role in that is undeniable.

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Post by ronan01 » January 20, 2012, 6:01 pm

BobHelm wrote:
ronan01 wrote:"NASA climatologist James Hansen has warned that if the tar sands are fully exploited, “it is game over for the climate.”" Which means we are doomed, there is no going back.

Do you believe exploiting the canadian tar sands will be game over for the climate? Do you support this standpoint?

Do you also support Hansen that "the oceans will boil" because of CO2? Do you believe the oceans will boil?

Try a yes or no answer in each case.
Ronan let us clear something up immediately.
You quoted this as a source & suggested that there is something hugely incorrect with it.
The piece is by, according to your link
Rex Weyler
While he does indeed quote a piece by
James Hansen
that is not, as far as I can see the basis of his complete argument.
Nowhere in the piece can I see any reference to
"the oceans will boil"
So I can only guess that this is another quote from somewhere completely different & nothing to do with this piece at all.

I found the piece about oil & democracy interesting to say the least.
It is not an idea that had occurred to me before but would need huge amounts more information backing up his argument before it would convince me.
His thoughts about Margaret Thatcher are, on the face of it, rather outlandish &, at a cursory glance looks like bending the facts to fit an opinion. Mrs. Thatcher was much more politically driven to break the Trade Unions than anything else &, although wasted by both Conservative & Labour Governments the significance of income from oil to the UK is rather overstated in his piece. The huge decline in manufacturing & mining that took place at the time had, I believe, a far, far greater impact.

As for you suggesting that the USA remains the pinnacle of Democracy rather depends upon how you view the word Democracy.
I think that many, if not most, Americans would consider that their freedoms have been significantly reduced from what they were 30 years ago.
Much of that is undoubtedly down to the method by which America elects its leaders & especially the huge role that 'pressure groups' & funding from big industry plays in US politics today.
That the oil industry plays a large role in that is undeniable.
Do you believe exploiting the canadian tar sands will be game over for the climate? Do you support this standpoint?

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Post by ronan01 » January 20, 2012, 6:07 pm

THE OCEANS WILL BOIL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... uxfiuKB_R8

Repent ye carbon footprint sinners, the end is nigh ................ again

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Post by BobHelm » January 20, 2012, 6:53 pm

ronan01 wrote:Do you believe exploiting the canadian tar sands will be game over for the climate? Do you support this standpoint?
I have no idea ronan, not being in possession of all the facts.
However you have not even quoted the 'eco-nut' correctly. He actually says..
if the tar sands are fully exploited
The total reserves of tar sand is 1.75 trillion barrels (280×109 m3) of bitumen. Currently only 10% of the resource is even been considered as being recoverable, over a long time frame as well. The project is certainly chucking huge amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere even the companies processing the sand agree.
And even the non eco nuts exploiting the resource admit that something has to be done about the CO2 being released. 4 projects are under way in Alberta about CO2 extraction & storage.
To me, that is a bit like bolting the stable door after the horse has vanished.

I do believe that there are serious questions to be answered about the project though. Just rejecting all criticism of the project as being from eco-loon nutjobs is complete foolishness.

The complete project might be a little more defensible if the oil extracted was being used by Canada, but more oil is actually exported to the USA by Canada than is used in Canada itself.
It is causing pollution & is a dangerous process that could easily go wrong. Financial rewards for a few are just too great to worry about details like that though!!

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Post by ronan01 » January 23, 2012, 7:34 am

BobHelm wrote:
ronan01 wrote:Do you believe exploiting the canadian tar sands will be game over for the climate? Do you support this standpoint?
I have no idea ronan, not being in possession of all the facts.
However you have not even quoted the 'eco-nut' correctly. He actually says..
if the tar sands are fully exploited
The total reserves of tar sand is 1.75 trillion barrels (280×109 m3) of bitumen. Currently only 10% of the resource is even been considered as being recoverable, over a long time frame as well. The project is certainly chucking huge amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere even the companies processing the sand agree.
And even the non eco nuts exploiting the resource admit that something has to be done about the CO2 being released. 4 projects are under way in Alberta about CO2 extraction & storage.
To me, that is a bit like bolting the stable door after the horse has vanished.

I do believe that there are serious questions to be answered about the project though. Just rejecting all criticism of the project as being from eco-loon nutjobs is complete foolishness.

The complete project might be a little more defensible if the oil extracted was being used by Canada, but more oil is actually exported to the USA by Canada than is used in Canada itself.
It is causing pollution & is a dangerous process that could easily go wrong. Financial rewards for a few are just too great to worry about details like that though!![/
quote]

OK - Canadian oil for Canadians - strong arguement. Why not:

- Saudi oil for Saudi's
- Columbian coffee for Columbians
- Chinese neodymium for Chinese (no more wind power for the naughty industrtialised west

It causes pollution and is a dangerous process that could go wrong - another strong arguement. There have been no "dangerous" projects before?, no pragmatic risk assessment and management done before?, no compliance with EPA laws?

The eco-loons rejecting the project because it is "dangerous" is poor foolishness. Why dont the eco-loons set up in Saudi Arabia in order to prevent the export of that "dangerous oil".

The relationship between so called global warming and CO2 is tenouus - CO2 emmissions have increased, but the temperatures have been flat line (maybe even decreasing) since about 1997 - reality does not agree with the AGW theory.

Tar sand and shale oil / gas have tempered the "peak oil" arguement. It seems we will not run out of fossil fules as soon as some would like us to believe.

And as for "big oil money" corrupting Canada. Greenpeace, WWF and similar NGO eco-facists have spent hundreds of millions of dollars against the Canadian gov and people. The eco-loons are not the underdogs - they are a well funded and organised groups who are accountable to nobody but themselves. Greenpeace's actions in trying to force people to purchase forest products approved by them is nothing more than an extortion racket. Greenpeace - the organisation that wanted to ban chlorine ... hahaha.

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Post by ronan01 » January 23, 2012, 9:27 am

NOAA's 2011 Global Temperature Dataset Released & Confirms That IPCC's "Global Warming" Is DOA:

http://www.c3headlines.com/2012/01/noaa ... s-doa.html

Two adjacent 50 year periods are compared side by side, for overall global temperature rise, and overall ambient CO2 rise:

1912 to 1961: the temperature increase is 0.52C, the CO2 increase, 18ppm.
1962 to 2011: the temperature increase is 0.41C, the CO2 increase, 74ppm.

Whatever the overall effect of the CO2 increase is on global temperature, it is clearly not a dominating factor causing warming. The atmosphere is behaving as if the extra CO2 does not really matter very much at all since the temperature jumps are similar, whilst the CO2 jumps are clearly not.


The take home from both charts is rather simple and obvious: the urban myths of accelerating, unequivocal, irreversible, unprecedented, rapid, dangerous modern warming from human CO2 are just that - myths. In addition, these two charts reveal that any proposal suggesting that by controlling CO2 emissions it would be like controlling a global temperature "thermostat" is a bogosity bordering on insanity.

Climate skeptics gathering influence in Tory Senate seats

http://www.montrealgazette.com/technolo ... story.html

There is, in fact, no scientific consensus. What’s certain is that it would be irresponsible to spend billions of dollars to impose unnecessarily stringent regulations to resolve a problem whose gravity we still are not certain about. The alarmism that often characterized this issue is no longer at stake. Canada is right to be cautious.”

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Post by BobHelm » January 23, 2012, 9:32 am

If you can't see the ridiculousness in suggesting that there is some correlation between the environmental impact of Coffee Bean production & oil from shale then you are probably not worth the effort of attempting to explain anything to.

As for 'risk assessment' of dangerous projects. They have done that & actually agree that environmental impacts need to be addressed (the 4 CO2 extraction projects) & yet continue to exploit the resource before the mitigation factors are in place.

Greenpeace is supported solely from contributions from its' 2.5 million members.
To suggest that it is some sort of multi million dollar organisation threatening small & poor oil extractors with its' wealth is one of the most ludicrous ideas that you have suggested on this thread....& there have been some pretty ludicrous ones as well.
BP ( you remember them, one of the oil companies that got their risk assessment very wrong in the Gulf of Mexico) is just one of many oil companies. It makes about 35,000 Million USD PROFIT a year.
To suggest that Greenpeace - the entire industry against exploitation - could even dream of having these sums of money available to it is simply stupid.

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