Thesis on Udon Thani

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rocket2
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Thesis on Udon Thani

Post by rocket2 » June 15, 2008, 3:21 am

Hi All,

After 2 years and countless edits, my thesis is complete on examining planning issues around foreigners retiring/residing in Udon Thani. Again, I couldn't have done it without this message board and all the fine foreigners in Udon Thani. So a big thank you to everyone that I met and interviewed as well as all the posters on this forum.

I look forward to any comments anyone has. It is a meaty document at over 200 pages.

http://mspace.lib.umanitoba.ca/bitstrea ... chulte.pdf

John



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beer monkey
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Post by beer monkey » June 15, 2008, 3:49 am

I read a few pages, will read more another time, the first several pages got me interested a bit.

2nd page...
IRM in Udon Thani, Thailand consists almost exclusively of retired Western men
marrying local women who are almost always much younger.Almost all the men first
spend time in the sex tourism haven of Pattaya, Thailand before moving to the interior
Northeastern city of Udon Thani at or near where their wives are from. Thus, there are
many linkages and commonalities between the expatriate residents in Pattaya and Udon
Thani.

Without proper planning, Udon Thani will continue to adopt many of the
undesirable attributes of Pattaya such as beer bars and sex tourism which are already
present and growing rapidly.
Was that a conclusion about the ex-pats you actually interviewed...?
When you say 'Almost all' ..what percentage would that be..?
Thanks

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Post by marjamlew » June 15, 2008, 6:53 am

BM,
Every good narrative needs a hook. That something that will capture the attention of the intended audience and create debate and discussion. So talk of beer bars and sex tourism and almost all expats graduating from the Pattaya campus (95% - almost all??) will obviously create a storm here.
But I guess real informed comment should be saved until after reading the whole text. I'm on holidays in two weeks and look forward to reading the rest of the document then.
Thanks for posting your work Rocket2. Look forward to having a gander.
Lew
Watch Me!!

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Guns482
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Post by Guns482 » June 15, 2008, 7:24 am

Not read but seems from comments above a generalisation, will try to read it, but feel that as thesis might be good for whatever you wrote it for, however sems more like a novel than a factual document.
Will offer a more educated comment when i have read it ALL :D
Guns

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Post by laphanphon » June 15, 2008, 8:49 am

Almost all the men first
spend time in the sex tourism haven of Pattaya, Thailand before moving to the interior
Northeastern city of Udon Thani at or near where their wives are from. Thus, there are
many linkages and commonalities between the expatriate residents in Pattaya and Udon
Thani.
I think that's a fair assessment. unless old military, how would anyone know Udon thani was even here. who, how many have not started their first visit to Thailand without the services of the industry. your partner may or may not of been in the industry, but I think at one point, most experienced the industry, eventually came to Udon, maybe with the same gal, got lucky and found a good one, or ended and liked the area and stayed and met another, and another, and another, in some cases :oops: :oops:

take into consideration, the expats he talked with, most older, and imagine most exposure to Thailand is as he mentions. of course there is a new, updated, hi-tech meeting place, via internet, but really hasn't taken off quite yet, so most of the retiree's, remember the topic, haven't been doing that long enough to change the stats. 5-10 years from now, those stats will probably change, along with, just being acquainted with someone from Udon thani, and visiting, checking it out as a retirement option whether 1st hand friend of forum. but that's probably not the percentage of people that are here now. most I

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BKKSTAN
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Post by BKKSTAN » June 15, 2008, 10:19 am

Congratulations on finishing your thesis John!

I never got to the masters stage in my education pursuits,so I have no expertise to criticise your thesis as a completed instrument in search of the Masters degree!

I didn't ''speed read''it and found it very interesting and informative!

I think it can be assumed that there are parts that might be contentious to some of us,but I would argue that the material was well covered and would be a good outline for potential expats to read and assimilate into there potential future expat plans!

I don't know if you have submitted it to the review committee or not,but if not,I noticed some 'type errors' you might want to correct!And IMO,some ''wordings or terms'' that I believe are not correct!

I enjoyed reading it and again congrats :D I will PM you!

laphanphon

Post by laphanphon » June 15, 2008, 11:26 am

John, nicely done. halfway through and no arguments from me.

others not reading it yet, above quote, taken a bit out of context, but I still feel accurate. the first 90 pages deals with worldwide retirement trends and surveys and other thesis/reports of references and are interesting themselves, filling some of my ignorance. and again, they are thesis and reports, all with the good and bad of such things. as John points out himself, it was very difficult to get a true and accurate account of the majority of expats/retirees for various reasons. but a job well done. it gets into Thailand and Udon specifically around page 89, if wanting to speed read, but don't, and you see the amount of work and detail involved and reference used to evaluate the retirement trends and where his thoughts and opinions come from for the full report.

well past half of it, may finish shortly, though chores are beckoning. so may have to postpone. chores, they suck, finished reading, though will admitl to some speed reading about non udon subject matter.

again, nice job and congrats. also congrats on you marriage. you may be one of your own statistics one of these days, a Udon retiree. 8)

Love the soi Pattaya as opposed to farang alley, much more appropriate. Also saw some familiar faces in there, that should spark some curiosity.

Give it a read, you won

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Post by Aardvark » June 15, 2008, 3:34 pm

I'm looking forward to it :D

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lassebasse
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Post by lassebasse » June 15, 2008, 3:41 pm

Thank you John, this was most interesting especially since I will be joining the IRM gang in Udon later this year.

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BKKSTAN
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Post by BKKSTAN » June 15, 2008, 4:10 pm

lassebasse wrote:Thank you John, this was most interesting especially since I will be joining the IRM gang in Udon later this year.
:lol: So,which of the 3 categories do you fit in lassebasse? :lol:I think I sit somewhere between number 2 and number 3 :roll:

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Post by BobHelm » June 15, 2008, 4:24 pm

Certainly an interesting read John.
I must admit that some of it surprised me a little - I certainly haven't encountered the number of ex-Pataya IRM that I should have!!!! :D :D
Nice to have some actual facts though, pity the "system" couldn't provide you with some concrete data concerning numbers.

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Post by bumper » August 7, 2008, 9:17 am

Unless you are into scholary reserach you might want to start on page 103, up to you I scanned it first and that was what I wanted.

As usual I'm a square peg for a round hole. He definetly saw a part of Udon that it is best known for. But I think he might have missed the part I live in. In his defence he asked for participation. But, frankly everyone thought he was a trool. Turns out he wasn't.

I met him once at the bowling alley, nice young guy.

Some interesting points he makes is the lack of organized effort by the Thailand to attract a specific range of retirees. The lack of social organization beyond the bar scene. The failure to allow retirees to help in the community beyond being a tourist police volunteer. That one has been a sore spot for me all along. That is a huge loss of talent that would not take jobs from Thai's as most would just like to have something to stay busy.

Not a real surprise as to the views Thai's have of us. The ones the Thai's see the most of are those involved in the bar scene. A lot of us have other social activities such as in my case motorcycle touring. But we are pretty much a behind the scenes activity.

His commnets as to Pattaya was intersting again I don't fit. my first vist was to Pattaya, what I saw was somplace that would not be where I wanted to live. But, I saw something in the Thai people that caused me to search further.

Why Udon it had a VFW which meant a english speaking population. I have long since stopped being active in the organazation. Simply because I found a better way for me. But at first it was a valuluable method to learn.

Another way I don't fit I was never here in the Military.

One thing that surprised me was the statement that most expats leave after two years. Don't doubt it just haven't seen it. I would be the first to admit that the first two years are the hardest and about three years out you start to get the flow of things.

Marriage, I don't agree that the only way is to become total Thai. First of all that is simply not possible. Secondly I believe a blended marriage of trying combine the best of both cultures works best.

I respect my wifes family and treat them with respect. But, I'm no door mat, not a walking ATM machine. Yes I help when the need is there. But, they have helped me in other ways. There have been a few in the family that saw me as thier bank, they were sadly mistaken.So we donlt have much contact with them. Now here is the kicker wifes idea not mine. I don't really see them to be much different then my home country family.

The belief system sorry I don't interfer with that. I may not believe it, but that is up my wife. I even go along sometimes without the slightest clue of what is going on. I only know it makes her feel better. Certianly doesn't cost me much to give.

Competetion from the Super markets. Hey big surprise that is where the wife wants to shop. But the general rule the Mom and pop markets dont stock all that we want to buy. Otherwise I see no problem in shopping the mom and pop markets. Truth is we are lucky here, once you leave the down town area, very little double priciing goes on here.

Has the farrang population changed Udon yes in certain areas it is not the Udon I knew and came to want as my home city. But for the most part I stay to the part that I do love. It's still here but not all over as it was before.

As to nothing to see around here, guess I hould have taken him for a bike ride, lots of lakes within the Province and some very scenic areas as well. But you won't find them on a Tourist map.

Marriages centered around finance, yes. But is it really all that different for Thai's? Not the ones I know.

Is Udon goign to outgrow it's infrastructure no, it already has.

For the first time someoen actually came up with some numbers for the farrang population and as usual, nothing Iron Clad. TAT estimates it a 3-5 K

A survey conduted at the Songkran festival sits at about 2500.

Nong Khai issues 299 annual visas or renewals, each year. By the way these numbers ae form two years ago i beleive. So somewhere between 299 and 5K

It really doesn't paint a very pretty picture of us. But in the end that is our fault. He asked we didn't help.

I noted that there were expats he was afraid to interview can't say as I blame him. There are many expats around that I don't want any contact with. Sad part is to get a accurate picture it needed to be done. But I congradulate him for completing such a huge endeavor.

Anyway that is what I gleaned from it be interesting to see others views.

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Post by Aardvark » August 7, 2008, 11:52 am

I just read over 150 pages and while there were a few interesting pieces I found the whole thing too repeditive. This guy is also obsessed with prostitution and repeats over and over about the negative aspects of expats living in Udon and the increase in prostitution, which I find farsical as most members on this forum and most expats living in Udon are married and do not in any way frequent brothels or bars for sex. He also continually talks about the high divorce rate which I have yet to encounter. Further he bleats about things such as excessive water use by falangs putting pressure on local infrastructure. I for one tried to install water tanks at my wifes village house to be collected from the roof only to be told by the local head man that I could not do it. He also says that expats do not try to intergrate into the local community which I also think is B/S. One stat I did find interesting was that a survey of the more educated in Udon thought that the falang community was more than big enough and contributed little to the community, however the least educated thought an increase in expats would benefit the whole community. Sounds like the local Elite are running scared. By the way, I started reading on page 93 and finished on about 164.

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Post by BobHelm » August 7, 2008, 12:13 pm

A minor thing that I disagreed with from personal observation. That had to do with the increase in Falang population resulting in major supermarket chains to the detriment of "small local shops". Whenever I go into one of the large stores at least 90% (and that is a VERY conservative estimate) of customers are Thai. Another thing I often notice is the large number of a single items being purchased by Thai customers - far,far more than even an extended family could need. These can only be small shop owners stocking for their shop in preference to shopping at the Chinese warehouses that the would have previously used.
Personally I go to the big supermarkets when I want to buy specific Falang items that the small shops & markets do not supply. Otherwise I shop in the local store or go to one of the many markets for fresh produce.
Personally I see the large supermarket chains in Udon as more of a result of the general "westernisation" of Asia (due to media coverage of all things western shown in a positive manner) than the fact a few thousand Falangs live here. The largest percentage of item lines for sale are directed at Thai customers & not Falang.

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Post by BKKSTAN » August 7, 2008, 1:16 pm

I read this awhile back and don't feel like tripping through it again!So I don't remember if 7-11's were mentioned!

But,IMO,7-11 is far more detrimental to the local merchants than Tesco!

As Bob mentioned,Tesco is a supplier to neighborhood merchants!

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Post by Guns482 » August 7, 2008, 3:16 pm

Still no real comment although some of the statement are not made with a broad sp[ectrum of farangs who are here, many I have spokjen too do not relate to being a previous pattaya person in any sense of the owrd, they have visited but only for a week or two, desiring true Thai not canned thai experience.
But to date no real probs.
Guns

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Post by parrot » August 8, 2008, 7:33 pm

Some non-thesis observations:
When I came to Udon 13 years ago, the VFW (vast majority being retired military) made up a large number of falangs living in Udon. A good number of those guys married way back in the 1970's and, to the best of my knowledge, all are married to the same girl (okay, older woman). Back in the late 1990's, if you wanted info about Thailand, you either knew someone to write to or you called (very expensive in those days). There was little to no internet info about Udon. Then, almost simultaneously, the baht crashed (from 25 to 1 all the way up to 50+ to 1) and information on Udon became available on the internet. When I thought about coming over to retire, despite having been married to a Thai for 26yrs at the time, I had to write a friend who lived in Udon. It took 3 months to get a reply to my letter. Today, you have udonmap thaivisa and a host of other forums that spell out everything a person could want to know. Whether it was either one of these 2 things (the baht crash or the internet), I'll never know, but soon thereafter, swarms of falangs started showing up on the streets of Udon. Falang restaurants started opening along with the requisite bars. A second wave seems to have begun in the past year or two......Pattaya and Phuket retirees who are fed up with the hassles of living there and have relocated to Udon. I have a hunch that at least some of them are relocating to make up for lost ground on the baht/$ exchange rates. I don't get out much, but I can count at least 5 who have done so in the past year alone.
I only know of 3 folks who have cashed in their chips and returned home: one, a Brit, whose wife left him after he had sunk all his savings into a house and piece of land; an American who left because of illness; and another American who came over with only his social security paycheck and no savings. As the baht slid from 40 to 32, he couldn't make ends meet. I'm sure there are more folks who left for a variety of reasons......but most folks who I met in the past 13 years are still here.
I suppose another contributing factor is the improvement to infrastructure since 1996: AEK, Paolo, Lotus, Home Pro, Index, Global....even Robinson's has spruced things up, 7 day a week banking, two (that's two more than before) bowling alleys, and land ownership laws that allow Thai spouses to own land. And then you have Sizzler, Dairy Queen, Swenson's, and long list of falang eateries that many people could not do without.
And finally, a comment about 7-11's. 7-11's are open 24/7. They're mostly airconditioned. Mostly they're very clean and the staff is very friendly. You can usually buy an ice-cream cone from a 7-11 freezer and not worry (too much) that it might have been in there for a few years. And they carry a good selection of items that people want from a convenience store. While I hate to see the mom and pop's fail, in my opinion, they're not failing because of 7-11, they're failing because they are not in tune with good business practices....and most carry on their businesses out of spare space in their home. From what I understand, the vast majority of 7-11's in Thailand are owned by the CP family (lots of money).

Finally, what's the big secret with annual visas granted to falangs? 250 is way to low, maybe 5000 is right.........As much money as foreigners pour into Udon/surrounding areas, you'd think the mayor would put up a McDonald's type sign at the airport or center circle that would flash in big red letters: NOW SERVING 4993 FOREIGNERS

Been here 13 years......can't imagine going anywhere else.

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Post by bumper » August 8, 2008, 8:02 pm

Yep, a simple retirment visa similiar to the Resident visa would sure go a long way. I don't know about 5k but 299 heck I see more the that on the way to Robinson.

The interesting thing is that in Thei the majority of the farrang poplulation was again overlooked. I know of three gusy who went back just beacuse it wasn't for them. One of them has already returned. That is over a six year period.

Yes we represent one heck of a lot of money in the community and they are only really having to deal with about 10% of us. The 90% is minding and taking care of thier own business.

Why 299 maybe a lot of guys are going elsewher to renew thier visas, or that was a number on new visia issued. That wasn't clear to me.

Khan Kean is planning a we love our farrangs day in October. actually Farrang son in law. I don't remember one in Udon last year, but I know they have had them.

Truthfully I believe Thailand is missing a golden opportunity is not recognizing the potential of baby boomers retiring. A real retirement visa alone would make a big difference. On the medical side I don't about you guy but I pay for medical insurance, Thaiand has not paid one baht for my medical needs. Everyone that I know has thier families covered, so I think a bit off base there.

If this was something that might actually change something for us I would be challenging it like there was no tomorrow. Hope he get his masters. He should couldn't be that many people around that know the real Udon, unless you live here.

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Post by tingtongfalang » August 10, 2008, 9:34 am

I didn't read the document and don't plan to, but from what I read in these posts I agree with Git...I don't fit in that demographic, i.e.:graduate of WBU Pattaya campus and I think the information in the document is skewed to show the majority that way because most of the research was done in the bars or at the Night Market where many of the ex-Pattayaers gather.

Think about it...of the 4000+ foreigners living in Udon Thani probably 1% were actually interviewed to research the project.

I don't go in the falang bars/resaurants, in fact I avoid them. I take my meals in the small mom & pop Thai places and speak Thai as best as I can. I try to go to each place along my soi and get to know the people and let them get to know me. I go out of my way sometimes to buy things at different places along the soi even if I don't need it, just to get to know the people there since I either walk or ride past the place every day.

laphanphon

Post by laphanphon » August 10, 2008, 11:33 am

i disagree with that, since i did read it, and he explained himself and the area quite accruate, i thougt anyway. pointing out the lack of input and info available. also pointing out quite possible what we all believe also, most in out of town and village life. 8)

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