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UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

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UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby davecryan » March 11, 2010, 4:01 pm

Extract from a Expat Pensioners website dated Sept 2009.

Note the last sentence................... but dont hold your breath !



It's hugely unfair that pensioners who have made their National Insurance contributions all their lives in the UK are being penalised for retiring abroad.'

'We hope the case today will see an end to this inequality and ensure that the government gives every pensioner their fair share, no matter where they decide to retire.'

The 13 pensioners will have their case heard by the European Court of Human Rights today after a 6-to-1 decision in the lower court rejected their case back in November.

The pensioners appealed the decision and won a right to a second hearing back in April.

Bockman said: 'Half a million ‘frozen’ pensioners around the world are breathing more easily today, knowing that they may all yet see justice.'

The Court is not expected to announce its ruling until March or April 2010.
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby hangsaboot » March 14, 2010, 10:02 pm

i hope we , have what we put into the system ..
before the country goes bankrupt.

live in hope :roll:
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby BobHelm » March 14, 2010, 10:38 pm

I tried to find out a few more details about it, but failed!! :D
I had a feeling that I had read about their case when it first started & it was pretty specific.
Either they were in EU countries & so were arguing that it was illegal under EU law or they were in 'Commonwealth' countries & so were arguing from that stand point.
Either way I didn't think their actual case would effect me living in Thailand - unless it left such a few people in that situation & cost too much to administer that the Government just gave up...
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby arjay » March 16, 2010, 7:37 pm

I thought members maybe interested, as well as disappointed, about the outcome of this case:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8568970.stm

UK expats lose pension freeze appeal

Pensioners
About half of UK pensioners overseas are caught by the pensions freeze

More than half a million UK pensioners living overseas will continue to have their pensions frozen after a European court decision.


Pensioners who moved to countries such as Australia and Canada only receive the level of pension paid at retirement - which might be only £6 per week.

The European Court of Human Rights rejected an appeal from a group of pensioners by an 11 to 6 majority.

The group wanted to receive increases in line with inflation.

The decision has saved at least £500m a year for the government, which said that its first responsibility was with pensioners living in the UK.

The expatriate pensioners say they have been fighting "tooth and nail" against the UK government in an eight-year court battle.

Pensioners who have moved abroad want their UK state pensions to rise in line with inflation each year.

Inflation-proofing only applies to UK pensioners who live in the European Economic Area or in 15 other countries, but not in some Commonwealth states.

Entitlement

John Markham, a pensioner living in Canada, said: "There is an image of people living well in the sunshine - but there are plenty of cases of real hardship."

The applicants did not contribute to the UK economy, in particular, they paid no UK tax to offset the cost of any increase in the pension
European Court of Human Rights

He said the decision was the end of the legal road, but they wanted to take the case to the "court of public opinion".

He told the BBC News website that they would take 48 hours to consider the decision.

The campaigners argue that they paid into the pensions system when they were working and are entitled to the same benefits as those who remained in the UK.

For the oldest overseas pensioners, who retired in the early 1970s, the pension can be as low as £6 a week. Those who retired in the early 1980s are left on about £30 a week, and those who retired in the early 1990s get about £50 a week.

The current basic state pension is £95.25 a week.

'First priority'

There are more than a million UK pensioners living overseas - with about half of them affected by the pensions freeze.

Annette Carson
South Africa resident Annette Carson was among those who started the case

If pensioners have moved to countries with a reciprocal arrangement - such as in the European Union or the United States - then they receive pension increases.

But if pensioners have emigrated to countries without any such agreement - such as Australia, Canada and South Africa - their pensions have been frozen at the level of when they moved overseas.

The Department for Work and Pensions welcomed the ruling and said the department's first responsibility was to support pensioners in the UK.

"We note that the court has found in favour of the government. We do not therefore plan to make any changes to the current arrangements, which allow for the exportability and up rating of UK state pensions," a department spokesman said.

"We will, nonetheless, study the terms of the judgment carefully to ensure that we continue to comply with our obligations under the terms of the European Convention on Human Rights."

The department has said that pensioners who chose to move to a country without a reciprocal pensions arrangement would have been aware of what it would mean for their state pension.

The case has seen a series of courts reject the arguments of pensioners including Annette Carson, who moved to South Africa in 1990.

After emigrating, she continued to make full contributions to her UK state pension and, on retirement in 2000, began to receive pension payments. But since then, the UK authorities have frozen the level of payments at £67.50 a week.

Judges at the European Court of Human Rights were the latest to declare that National Insurance contributions did not have an "exclusive link" to retirement pensions.

"As non-residents, the applicants did not contribute to the UK economy, in particular, they paid no UK tax to offset the cost of any increase in the pension," a statement from the court said.

The court said that it was hard to draw any genuine comparison with the position of pensioners living elsewhere.
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby PainterMan » March 16, 2010, 7:42 pm

Well, I see the expat UK pensioners have lost their case at the European Court for inflation linked pension rises.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8568970.stm

Only those that choose to retire to the EC or one of about 15 other countries will have their pensions increase annually.

All others will have it frozen if they choose to live outside of those areas.

So as soon as you move to Thailand permanently your pension will be frozen at that current rate.

I was really hoping that the initial ruling might have been overturned by the European Court, but no.

So much for all the contributions you might have made.

I may have to rethink what I intended to do in 2 years time.

PainterMan :( :(
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby wazza » March 16, 2010, 7:53 pm

Well ist still better than an Australian who chooses to live overseas, where ur pension is reviewed after 6 months ?? and reduced

Mind u the Aust goverment top up the Brits who are affected on this decision ! so they get the full indexed Australian pension.

For me, i choose to leave Oz for Thailand and I dont get 1 cent !unless i go back at 63 , wait 2 years then get means tested for my cash etc and all i get is a medibank card !
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby 747man » March 16, 2010, 7:57 pm

Generous hey Wazza ???
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby wazza » March 16, 2010, 8:08 pm

And to top it off 747, if u work off shore but still reside in Oz, ( have a house with ur wife, have a defacto relationship, use bank accounts, own a car, use the public health system, kids go to school etc ) then ur required tom pay full tax on ur off shore income , and if you pay tax in a country of employment, then they are allowed to go u for the difference now.

If u declare urself as non resident for taxation, then that wont apply BUT u loose ur rights to a pension.

Its just the norm now, for most developed countries to push the workers into self funded retirement etc.

The baby boomers have come back to claim the lot and the kitty isnt there anymore.
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby 747man » March 16, 2010, 8:30 pm

Sounds WORSE than Blighty Waz !!!!
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby Astana » March 16, 2010, 8:48 pm

davecryan wrote:Extract from a Expat Pensioners website dated Sept 2009.

Note the last sentence................... but dont hold your breath !

It's hugely unfair that pensioners who have made their National Insurance contributions all their lives in the UK are being penalised for retiring abroad.'

'We hope the case today will see an end to this inequality and ensure that the government gives every pensioner their fair share, no matter where they decide to retire.'

The 13 pensioners will have their case heard by the European Court of Human Rights today after a 6-to-1 decision in the lower court rejected their case back in November.

The pensioners appealed the decision and won a right to a second hearing back in April.


Bockman said: 'Half a million ‘frozen’ pensioners around the world are breathing more easily today, knowing that they may all yet see justice.'

The Court is not expected to announce its ruling until March or April 2010.


Unfortunately, they lost the case, the European Court of Human Rights rejected an appeal from a group of pensioners by an 11 to 6 majority.

:( see the article at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8568970.stm
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby wazza » March 16, 2010, 8:58 pm

Just an observation from a Colonial ( persona non grata for my pension ! ) it seems illegal immigrants are taken care of more than UK citizens who legally paid into these funds.
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby Astana » March 16, 2010, 9:14 pm

wazza wrote:Just an observation from a Colonial ( persona non grata for my pension ! ) it seems illegal immigrants are taken care of more than UK citizens who legally paid into these funds.


Yes, that is certianly the perception that comes across, how true it is I wouldn't know as I left years ago and haven't looked back. Worryingly I think your comment is actually truer than most people might think. Perhaps posters with more up to date information of HMP United Kingdom may care to share.
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby jackspratt » March 16, 2010, 9:22 pm

wazza wrote:And to top it off 747, if u work off shore but still reside in Oz, ( have a house with ur wife, have a defacto relationship, use bank accounts, own a car, use the public health system, kids go to school etc ) then ur required tom pay full tax on ur off shore income , and if you pay tax in a country of employment, then they are allowed to go u for the difference now.

If u declare urself as non resident for taxation, then that wont apply BUT u loose ur rights to a pension.


Its just the norm now, for most developed countries to push the workers into self funded retirement etc.

The baby boomers have come back to claim the lot and the kitty isnt there anymore.


Not correct wazz.

If you work offshore for a number of years, and declare yourself a non resident for tax purposes, you may lose a proportion of your pension, depending on how many years you pay tax in Oz.

If you are non-resident for long enough, you may lose all your entitlement - but hey, if you haven't been paying tax, why should you get a pension?

You don't have to live in Oz from 63 - 65, although if you do, it may make your case that much stronger that you are "resident in Australia" (the primary test), when you apply for your pension at 65 (assuming you are not disqualified by the assets and/or income test).

Once you have your pension, you can move to Thailand (or anywhere else) and it will be paid as a matter of course.

BTW - the kitty hasn't been there for many years now. That is why the far sighted Keating introduced compulsory self funded super back in the early 90s.
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby Faramond » March 26, 2010, 4:23 pm

I am a financial advisor, i have been working in Bangkok for 5 years helping Brits manage their Finances offshore.

Just to let you guys know

A law passed by the HMRC back in April 2006 allowing UK Private Pensions to be moved offshore to places like Guernsey.

If you have UK private pensions you can transfer them offshore and withdraw an income tax free. Other benefits are you do not have to purchase annuity. If anything was to happen to you, your Thai wife would be entitled to same income you were receiving or if you wanted she and your family could take the whole value of the pension fund tax free and not pay any inheritance tax.

Unfortunately this can only be done with Private pensions and State pensions can not be moved

Hope this info is helpful

Terry (Faramond)
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Re: UK State Pensions Unfrozen, Maybe............

Postby Texpat » March 26, 2010, 7:01 pm

Oh dear! :D
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