US Health Care Plan

So are you saying WBU that you believe that it is possible to discuss Health Care in the USA completely in isolation to the rest of the world?? And that Cost & Performance data from other countries is completely irrelevant??
How is it possible to see if something is providing a good or poor value for money service without comparisons??
Or is it simply that the only possible conclusions that could be drawn from any comparisons are totally politically unpalatable to most of those 'right of centre' in the USA and so the conversation cannot be held??

It's plainly simple to me. They want us to buy off on the socialist bullshit scam they got rooked into.
And they're a little bit annoyed we're no so quick to put full faith and trust into a system that they (vociferously) harangue and discredit at every opportunity.

They're just not very smart, are they?

Misery loves company.

Sorry for calling it what it is, Bob Helm, but it's a turd. You can munch and smile and call it delicious ...but it's still a turd.

Just 1 fact??????
I do not believe that you will see anywhere that I believe that the USA should copy the National Health Sytem - or any other form of system. But of course you know that Texpat.
If you have read this thread you will also see that the current USA system is giving a very poor result for twice the expenditure of ANY other country. Now this bill is going to throw yet more of your money at it..
Those are the facts, plain & simple. So you believe it is foolish (a major tone down of the words you have used) for a country to pay half the money for a better result????
The facts make a mockery of the insults that you are throwing around, but of course you know that as well...
You are not doing yourself any favours with your current method of defending the indefensible.

Thought you were an Oz-hole.

My apologies, musta been the smell. Does it hurt sometimes to think of yourself as a traitor?

BobHelm wrote:So are you saying WBU that you believe that it is possible to discuss Health Care in the USA completely in isolation to the rest of the world?? And that Cost & Performance data from other countries is completely irrelevant??
How is it possible to see if something is providing a good or poor value for money service without comparisons??
Or is it simply that the only possible conclusions that could be drawn from any comparisons are totally politically unpalatable to most of those 'right of centre' in the USA and so the conversation cannot be held??

I didn't say that at all.

I was just trying to follow forum rules.

This thread was a discussion about the American health care system being debated in the Congress of the United States. To compare one that is based on free enterprise with one in another country that is based on progressive socialism is like a thread on football with comments from baseball players about baseball.

If you wish to start a thread comparing and contrasting the free enterprise health care and socialist health care systems, it would probabaly better suit your arguments. I don't want what other countries have. I like my health care, and I'm tired of paying taxes for the unproductive.

This particular thread was begun about the health care system that was in play in Congress. That has nothing to do with comparing and contrasting with other countries.

WBU ALUM wrote:This thread was a discussion about the American health care system being debated in the Congress of the United States. To compare one that is based on free enterprise with one in another country that is based on progressive socialism is like a thread on football with comments from baseball players about baseball.

Rather, I would suggest it is the same as a thread about declining attendance figures at baseball games & then completely ignoring the trend in attendance at other sporting events. Viewing an event in complete isolation cannot provide a full analysis as you have nothing to compare against. If ALL sporting events are suffering declining figures to an equal or greater extent to baseball then the root cause is probably not baseball and a reversal of the trend maybe difficult to achieve. If every other sport is enjoying rising attendance then the probability is that baseball needs to change its act somehow in order to reverse the trend.
The call to "Abide by the forum rules" is, as I remarked previously, a red herring produced to mask a lost cause.
You state that you do not want to waste your tax dollar but are totally unwilling to look at alternatives offered by anyone else & seem incapable of proposing a viable alternative under the current American "Free enterprise" system that can achieve that.
As I have said before.
The USA is the ONLY country in the world STILL pursuing this path (it is not one invented by the USA, at one time or other other countries had similar systems, but have progressed from them), every other country has taken universal health care on board.
EVERY other country's inhabitants is paying at least 50% less than Americans.
The statistics show that the American model does not give a better outcome than the others - just about the only reason that may justify the extra expenditure - but actually gives a worse result than many.
So Americans are paying 100% over the odds for the service. Is that the real outcome of a "Free Enterprise" Health Care system?? It is really impossible to say with any certainty as everyone else abandoned that system. However, as no one can appear to come up with a plan to hugely reduce the costs (by at least 50% BEFORE including any costs in this bill) while expanding the service to universal coverage then it is really the only conclusion that one can draw.
To call every other country that practices universal health care "socialist" seems to me bizarre to say the least, as ALL do. Are you and Texpat actually saying that the USA is the only non-socialist country in the world?? If so, is that actually an admittance that "Capitalism" has now actually gone the same way as "Communism" as a failed political experiment??

Tell you what, Bob. You debate it.

ST. JOHN'S, N.L. -- Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams will undergo heart surgery later this week in the United States.

Deputy premier Kathy Dunderdale confirmed the treatment at a news conference Tuesday, but would not reveal the location of the operation or how it would be paid for.

"He has gone to a renowned expert in the procedure that he needs to have done," said Ms. Dunderdale, who will become acting premier while Mr. Williams is away for three to 12 weeks.

"In consultation with his own doctors, he's decided to go that route."

Mr. Williams' decision to leave Canada for the surgery has raised eyebrows over his apparent shunning of Canada's health-care system.

"It was never an option offered to him to have this procedure done in this province," said Ms. Dunderdale, refusing to answer whether the procedure could be done elsewhere in Canada.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=2510700

And the other way??

A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008.

1:1,500,000 seems good odds to me Tex. Must REALLY be a great system & you must be proud to have it, but does the new bill make your more or less proud??

Oh, sorry Tex...was THAT the long awaited FACT??
If so then I can see why you prefer to argue by insult...

Here's a good article explaining some of the more obvious fallicies of nationalizing U.S. health care.

http://fee.org/articles/tgif/goal-freed ... fallacies/

Bob, Your comments always worth a chuckle. Keep it up.

I am glad that I am at least amusing you TJ..
I have never suggested doing anything to the USA Health Care System. Only suggested that someone from America does something pretty darn drastic as it seems to be dire as it is. I do not believe that anything I have read about the proposed bills in the houses suggests anything different than throwing more money at it. It certainly does not seem to me to contain anything that would suggest a dramatic reduction in costs & an improvement in service coverage. This is the very least that someone must do in order to get on an equitable level with the rest of the world.
As the rest of the world has taken a different approach that seems to do better for less it seems to me that just maybe that approach should be looked at in the USA.
I would love for somebody to come up with a free market approach to Health Care that works. This one (be it a hybrid) does not. All the facts suggest that conclusion is true. No one has managed to come up with any data that even suggests the USA system will turn its self around.
Your link is a fine example of this TJ. Much of what it says is undoubtedly correct. But nowhere does it outline an alternative approach. Unlike Tex ridiculously suggests no-one is trying to impose anything on the USA. Just ask for a realistic alternative way of supply Health Care to the USA....This thread has been going on a long time & I have yet to see one firm proposal from the anti "socialist" route brigade.

Bob, you probably will never hear any realistic proposals from the anti-public system adherents on this thread. Just as when they deny AGW and never provide a positive argument, they just attack facts with fallacious arguments. Can't you just feel the lack of compassion and the selfishness in the words of some here? As long as I have my health insurance that I am happy with, I don't give a damn about others. Let them fend for themselves. Excellent approach to creating a better world I'd say Then when they start losing the "debate" some suggest that we are off topic. If they were winning the debate, no doubt they would not suggest it.