US Health Care Plan

BobHelm wrote:.in the life expectancy table USA comes in at number 50. Even Britain (at number 36) with their terrible National Health system beat them.
Canada with their terrible system, spend 50% per head less than their neighbours but manage to come in at number 8 on life expectancy = just below Australia.
And this is before the extra expenditure of the new bill....

I don't doubt that you are quoting the numbers correctly, but I'd like to know how the data was collected and determined.

In the past 18 months, there was a survey in the US reporting millions of homeless children in the US. Then it was uncovered that those collecting the data were counting children as homeless if they were living with grandparents, aunts, uncles, other relatives, or living in foster care. That is hardly homeless. Because of manipulation like this, it is becoming more and more difficult to believe anything that governments or agencies purport.

Like it or not, the Democrats are probably going to create a reconciliation bill that will pass both the house and the senate, end up on the predident's desk, and get signed into law.

The Republicans were successful in angering the American voters enough to give the Democrats a sufficient number of congressional and senate seats to get something done without the Republicans. The minority Republicans are screaming bloody murder. Some of them believe they are a majority. It's the serious illness of believing what they think.

Jack - Stop that!!

BobHelm wrote:https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html

But there are many, many other sites.....

I'm looking for something that explains the mortality. If it includes automobile accidents and death by handgun, then I would expect the US to be behind countries that have less crime and fewer automobiles.

I can't seem to find anything that explains what types of deaths are included and all of the other data that goes into such a ranking. There doesn't seem to be any on that CIA site.

BobHelm wrote:But free enterprise is about getting value for money - it is not about paying far too much for too little, as the figures show.
If anyone can show me any financial data that suggests that the American model is offering better value for money than ANY other developed country then I will apologise.
It would appear to me that many are stuck on dogma, rather than the result. Personally I couldn't care if it is called 'namby state' or 'socialism' if it produces a better product than something called 'free enterprise' at half the price then I know where my money is better spent...

Sorry, Bob.

Not debating the merits of free enterprise or socialism or any other economic system. Those topics have been beaten to death on this forum. There are believers on both sides. Live where you can do what you want to do economically and financially. It's in the eye of the beholder. This thread was started about the merits of the US health care plans that are currently under review in the House and Senate.

I'm not even concerned about any "American model" of health care. I'm concerned about government control of health care, having it impact my health care and the health care of 70+ percent of Americans who are happy with what they have, having my tax money used for illegal immigrants and abortion, and a lying Congress that is intent on a power grab, not improving health care. Those are my sticking points with the entire mess. Nothing else.

If you can shed some light on those specific issues, I'd be happy to read them, but I realize that if you don't live in America, it is difficult to have an opinion on those specific things.

Happy New Year, all! I'm off to bring in 2010!

Even though there is a clear disagreement between the forum members here,,,, I have to say I'm very impressed with the level of discourse for the most part. The ability to passionately disagree while treating each other in a civilised manner speaks volumes about the members here. Most understand there are topics that generate intense feelings to our very core and name calling or mudslinging are detrimental to understanding. Thank you all.

Given all that, I would ask the members that are proponents of huge government-run programs for anything to try to understand the reluctance and outright opposition of some Americans because of our national history and culture of immigrants leaving oppressive, totalitarian, downward-directed, societies for a place that encouraged individuality, self-sufficiency, freedom of religion, and merit, not family position or birth right.

I will admit there have been changes over the years and I believe they are a direct result of entitlement programs. IMHO, I think it's basic human nature to not want to give up anything someone gives you for free. But sometimes people (or as I call them, sheeple) don't understand the depth of control or strings attached to that gift.

The Democratic Party and the left in general have a history in America of stressing class division, not inclusion. They have historically been the Party of more taxes. And that has come at a cost, of course. They understood that those that control the money control the country. And that is the fundamental reason some Americans (myself included) don't want the money to go to Washington, but to remain in the local communities (city and state) where grassroots Americans have more control and oversight of it. People don't want some Senator who's been elected for life by some radically left, small state and who now controls a key budget committee and wields enormous power because of his or her senority to control their lives. The "I know what's best for you" crowd so eager to institute social engineering scares the Hell out of some Americans, me included.

Americans, by nature, are a very generous people, and in general, would consider themselves religious. They believe in "love thy neighbor" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". There are inumerable (sp) charities and organisations to help people and I believe I saw a study once that said individual Americans gave more than any other country. And yes, most believe there is a role for government to play also, a safety net so to speak.

Gents, I have rambled on long enough and I just ask those with opposing views to consider my words fairly.

A heartfelt wish for all of you and your loved ones to have Happy, Safe, and Prosperous New Year !!

LL

Jackspratt,,,,,, wow! a real eye opener! Your statement that CNN would be considered "slightly right of centre" caught me completely by surprise,,,,,,, you owe me a new shirt , I've ruined mine when the coffee "spewed out me nose and mouth" I absolutely have to share that with my friends.

Your statement "I would imagine there are as many rusted on, time serving Republicans in the Congress as there are Dems. " is probably true and I used that example without anyone specific in mind but more a statement about too much power at the federal level.

Once again, I really enjoy the discourse on this forum from the wide-ranging nationalities. The benefit of being able to exchange ideas because of the common language is invaluable, and even then we sometimes misunderstand each other. That old saying "two countries separated by a common language" always makes me smile. Can you imagine the ease of misunderstanding when we don't have a common language or culture? It's amazing expats can get on in Thailand.

Regards,,,,LL

jackspratt wrote:
Perhaps what many Americans don't understand (and vice versa), when it comes to members of this forum from other countries, what to you may see as representing "radically, left", to others may mean centre of the road.

As an example, I have read many times on this, and other forums, that CNN presents a liberal, left wing bias. From my perspective (and other Australians may disagree) CNN is slightly right of centre. Those who are regarded as conservative Republicans in the US would generally be thought of as strong to extreme right wing in Oz. Whilst we also have a fair share of them, they are treated as outside the mainstream, and given little credence (c.f . Pauline Hanson, who was a dumbded down version of Sarah Palin - if that is possible).

I do understand, and I believe most small-government advocates also understand, that big-government advocates are the growing majority. What I have been trying to understand is why socialists believe government or socialism is a better value for money than free enterprise. Human nature has a great deal to do with it. It is man's nature to prefer to acquire his wants and needs with the least effort, which makes political acquisition so attractive. Envy is a major factor. It is human nature for people to resent others that have more than themselves, no matter how acquired. But I am convinced that pro-big government sentiments are mainly due to misinformation; much of what people know of history, economics and philosophy is not true. It is my hope that in the future people can educate themselves about what is in the best interest for themselves, their community and their nation.

A liberal and a conservative on MSNBC discuss the garbage health care bills in Congress. They agree that it is garbage and should not pass.

Just another in a long line of problems with government-run health care. With things like this happening before the power grab is even complete, it is difficult to convince hard-working and productive Americans that Congress is doing something that will help them.

Mayo Clinic in Arizona to Stop Treating Some Medicare Patients

The Mayo Clinic, praised by President Barack Obama as a national model for efficient health care, will stop accepting Medicare patients as of tomorrow at one of its primary-care clinics in Arizona, saying the U.S. government pays too little.

More than 3,000 patients eligible for Medicare, the government’s largest health-insurance program, will be forced to pay cash if they want to continue seeing their doctors at a Mayo family clinic in Glendale, northwest of Phoenix, said Michael Yardley, a Mayo spokesman. The decision, which Yardley called a two-year pilot project, won’t affect other Mayo facilities in Arizona, Florida and Minnesota.

Obama in June cited the nonprofit Rochester, Minnesota-based Mayo Clinic and the Cleveland Clinic in Ohio for offering “the highest quality care at costs well below the national norm.” Mayo’s move to drop Medicare patients may be copied by family doctors, some of whom have stopped accepting new patients from the program, said Lori Heim, president of the American Academy of Family Physicians, in a telephone interview yesterday.

This issue hits very close to home for me. My mother, who is 80, had to look for another physician when her doctor retired. She could not find any doctor who was accepting new patients under Medicare. Had it not been for a friend, who was a retired M.D. making phone calls for her, she would still be searching for a doctor.

Reduced care, more expense to the patient, and more hassles is what Americans see coming to their health care system. Boondoggle.

Might be the best thing since sliced bread, but the money isn't there. The deficit needs to be paid on people need to go back to work so taxes can pay for it.

I will ask again does anyone know whats in the package now, the pork gotten taken care of you can bet on that. I doubt the poeple who are going to vote on it don't even know the details themselves. This is moving way to fast.

As far as different views from people other then American's a good learning excercise, so I have absolutly no problem with that, After seven years in Thailand trust me my views are much diferent themn they were before.

Suwaadee Pii Mai