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US Health Care Plan

General off-topic debates and discussions forum.

Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby LoongLee » January 2, 2010, 8:14 pm

UdonExpat,,,,, that takes us off into a completely different tangent, but one necessary to complete the picture. IMHO,,Tort reform is an absolute necessity. The huge jury awards and current system where someone sues and bankrupts the other party even if they don't prove their case is ripe for abuse and needs to be changed.

The fact that insurance companies could refuse insurance to people with self-destructive life styles is probably warranted,, sometimes it takes something harsh to get peoples attention. :-k A government run program probably won't do that and all of us will end up paying.

Jackspratt,,,,, understood mate,,,, :D
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby rjj04 » January 2, 2010, 8:40 pm

I just watched a Bill Moyer video that is quite illuminating. I plead now to the "free market" only people here to watch it.
Not sure if I can put a link up, but if you google "youtube Moyers potter interview" you will find it.

Please, watch that, and I'd love to hear your reactions.
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby JimboPSM » January 2, 2010, 9:28 pm

I have read various articles about how much tort reform could impact on US health care costs.

From the articles that I have read the maximum potential savings would appear to be no more than 2.0% of total costs.

While any saving is worthwhile and, in my opinion, should be actively pursued, this would still only be a relatively small drop in the ocean.

Quantifying this saving against the UK (as an example):

    • US health costs are currently approximately 100% more than UK health costs.

    • Asuming the full 2.0% saving could be made, US health care costs would still be 96% higher than UK.

Couple of articles / reports for some background:

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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby UdonExpat » January 2, 2010, 9:48 pm

The links to Moyers talk with Wendell Potter, former VP of Cigna. It's in two parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-M10jDkmm0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mv1FwOCN ... re=channel
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby LoongLee » January 2, 2010, 10:12 pm

UdonExpat,, JimboPSM and others,, understand your point about tort reform and it's impact on health care. I did not mean to overly state it's import to the health care reform issue and I may have just confused the main issue,,, sorry. LL
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby UdonExpat » January 2, 2010, 10:14 pm

I think a government's responsibility is to provide food, shelter, and safety to it's citizens. Health care is part of the safety component.

Not many people starve in America, so it's doing pretty good there.

Homelessness is a problem, but not all the homeless want a home. A small number are mentally ill and a significant number like the lifestyle. No responsibilities, free food most of the time, small groups that protect each other.

Safety is a big slice. Protection from internal (police) and external (military) enemies; environmental dangers (fire, pollution, food and drug, products); disease and injury; finances (banking, work, insurance); and probably some other I'm not thinking of right now.

The market economy is all about making money. It's not about providing services unless they are profitable. A health system with no sick people would go bust in nothing flat.

A market based health care system has no incentive to have healthy consumers. They want sick people and they want to charge them as much as they can for as little as they can provide. So far, they've been very successful. Their profits are high and they provide little service at great cost. Makes me wish I was heartless enough to own a health insurance company. :pirate:
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby LoongLee » January 2, 2010, 10:23 pm

UdonExpat,,,, I absolutely disagree that government has a responsibility to provide food and shelter to it's citizens. Reasonable safety... yes. And yes, a safety net so people don't fall "through the cracks" regarding shelter and food, but not a free ride.

Government has a responsibility to provide equal opportunity and a level playing field. The nanny state you describe is completely alien to American philosophy.
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby UdonExpat » January 2, 2010, 10:40 pm

I said nothing about a free ride and don't believe in them, unless she's very stupid.

You're describing a nanny state, not me.

I only tried to describe what a government should provide. I didn't suggest that it is free or without cost. The cost of participation in any government is work and taxes.

You work at something that provides for the common good and pay taxes so the government can provide services that you can't provide for yourself.

I don't understand why people think that if the government provides a service it's free. No government service is free. It's all paid for.

Some things the government pays for I'd just as soon not support, but hey, it's part of the deal. If my legislators vote to provide something with my tax money, that's how the system works. If I disagree seriously enough I don't vote for them next time around.

In fact, I've only ever voted for one person who won an election. I've never been happy enough with any state or federal candidate to vote for an incumbent in any election.
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby LoongLee » January 2, 2010, 11:32 pm

It is not in the best interest of "some" to limit a welfare state, but instead, they encourage it. The entitlement programs have become so ingrained that it is multigenerational and "some elected officials" depend on it because that's their voter base. I'm not aware of any public program (food, housing, health) that has reined in costs or not expanded beyond recognition. The very programs meant to help people have created a subclass of people completely dependent upon the government for their existance. President Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" programs have hurt, not helped that class of people.

Some people just don't want to believe there are members of society who are not interested in becoming productive, participating citizens. Government has failed miserably in it's responsibility to protect the funds allocated from productive taxpayers. And that's another reason why I believe funds should remain at the lowest level possible,,,, scrutinised by the local citizenry.
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby rjj04 » January 3, 2010, 12:29 am

LoongLee wrote: I'm not aware of any public program (food, housing, health) that has reined in costs or not expanded beyond recognition.


Huh? I think the facts provided in profusion on this thread have shown this statement to be false. How can you make this statement after looking at the data? So, if public programs can not rein in costs, then please explain why dozens of other developed nations can have universal health care, provided at the same level of quality (or in some cases better), through "government" guarantee , at a cost that is far lower than the US "free market" system?

Once again, people seem to be ignoring the facts due to dogma.

I spent four years in the US military, so I have seen first hand inefficiency in government!!! I also have a hard time "believing" that the government can do much of anything well, but facts are facts. "Government" can work well it seems. I think most Americans have been sold a program over the years, myself included. We bought it hook line and sinker, to our societies detriment I fear.
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby LoongLee » January 3, 2010, 4:50 am

rjj04,,,,,,,,, sorry, there seems to be a disconnect :-s ,,,,,,,,, I was only referring to the government run programs in the states,, didn't mean to imply other countries. Remarking about our US governments inability or desire to show fiscal responsibility when administering said programs. LL
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby UdonExpat » January 3, 2010, 6:43 am

LL likes to throw around his beliefs as if he has really researched them and found them to be true. If he had done the research I think he'd find a lot of his supposed facts are, in fact, not really true. He seems to think that growth is bad and to be avoided. Growth is natural and will continue as long as the country and its population continue to grow and prosper. Growth can also be seen as an indicator of good, rather than evil.

Certainly, there is a government dependent underclass that is partially enabled by the very programs that service them. That is not the issue. The issue is how to move them to a self sustaining and eventually to a contributory lifestyle. Welfare reform has moved many off the roles, but there is still work to be done in that arena. The cost of these programs (food stamps and family support) is only 4% of the spending on entitlement programs. Not a small amount, but because of the relatively small payback, on the congressional back burner.

Medicaid accounts for about 13%, and Medicare about 27%, of entitlement spending. Reforming the health care system has much more significant possibilities. About 10 times. Social Security accounts for about 40%. So, these three programs make up 80% of entitlement spending. Get rid of them, as LL seems to support, and most of the problem is solved.

Even though we seniors are feeding at the trough of government largess, I suspect we will continue to do so for some time. We're much more dependent than the few poor people who don't want to work. If fact, I guess we're partially in that class also. I don't want to work and I'm being paid by the government, although the government is paying me enough that I'm not poor.

The following AARP sponsored study on "Population Aging, Entitlement Growth, and the Economy" provides some factual background on the subject and puts forth their preferred ways of mitigating the problem.

As a federal-state program, Medicaid has much greater spending variation than Medicare because it pays for health care for a variety of low-income persons. About half of Medicaid’s 60 million enrollees are poor children, another one-fourth are either the parents of those children or poor pregnant women, and the remaining fourth are either aged, blind, or disabled. Medicaid covers 20 percent of the U.S. population, considerably more people than Medicare covers. Although Medicaid is often described as America’s health care program for the poor, in reality it covers only about one-third of people whose income is below the poverty level. It also finances about two-thirds of all nursing home stays by the time of a patient’s discharge.

The “graying” of America has caused alarm among many experts that the future cost of federal health and retirement programs will create huge federal deficits, dry up capital for investment, and jeopardize long-term economic growth. Spending entitlements—specifically Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid—are generally seen as the main factor driving this scenario.
Standard criticisms of entitlement spending generally don’t point out the very substantial favorable impacts they have had on poverty and inequality reduction, income support, greater living independence, and better health coverage. Critics often claim that older Americans benefit disproportionately from entitlement spending, but in fact, when tax entitlements and spending entitlements are cumulated, a majority of combined entitlement benefits actually are received by people under age 65.
Although population aging presents a serious fiscal challenge to the nation, there are hopeful trends that may portend a more sustainable economic future. Older workers have been staying in the labor force longer, a trend that means higher Social Security taxes to improve the system’s finances. In addition, disability rates appear to have declined steadily for the past decade or more, and nursing home utilization rates have also declined. The productivity of workers has surged in recent years and, if sustained, could help offset the future expected decline in the size of the labor force.
A plausible long-term scenario suggests that a future “train wreck” can be averted if we are able to maintain the same level of spending restraint in our health programs that we have already achieved in the past decade and we allow revenues to rise automatically without legislating additional tax cuts. In such a scenario, the primary deficit would be no larger in 2050 than it is today. Because debt would still be rising in this scenario, additional policy solutions would be needed to keep debt from growing faster than GDP.
At least six important additional solutions are needed:
1. Transform our health care system by paying more appropriately for services, extending coverage to those without insurance, and improving the quality of medical care.
2. Grow existing revenue sources and enact a new revenue source such as a VAT or progressive consumption tax that would yield significant revenues while limiting saving disincentives and administrative inefficiencies.
3. Reform Social Security to make it solvent for the long-run, including changes that would promote longer work lives.
4. Renew overall fiscal and budgetary discipline and reimpose the paygo spending caps.
5. Promote individual saving opportunities for low- and moderate-income households through universal “auto-IRAs” using payroll deduction and subsidies for low-income savers, and by converting “upside-down” tax incentives to refundable credits.
6. Promote economic growth by extending work lives, increasing national saving, and investing in human and physical capital to sustain productivity growth.

The needed policy changes will require leadership from government, the private sector, and non-government organizations, and contributions by both workers and employers. Concerted action in the near-term is critical if we are to create the conditions for continued economic growth while providing health and economic security for current and future generations of Americans, both in their working years and in retirement.

http://assets.aarp.org/rgcenter/econ/20 ... curity.pdf
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby JimboPSM » January 3, 2010, 12:45 pm

The foreword from the "2008 Financial Report of the United States Government" by Hank Paulson gives a fairly clear indication of why costs need to be reduced without indulging in the inflammatory rhetoric so beloved of politicians and the media, for the record, the outline in red was not in the original report it was added by me:

Image

Further on in the report there is a section on "The Long-Term Fiscal Outlook", it is on page 27/206 of the pdf file of the full report (referenced below):
Image

The full report makes for very interesting reading and helps to give a more complete background and a greater level of context; it can be found here:

Warning the above file is 2.7 MB so downloading may take some time, alternatively individual sections may currently be accessed from here:

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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby rjj04 » January 3, 2010, 4:43 pm

Hank Paulson, the man who thought bailing out his banker buddies with trillions was okay. He did not seem to complain when his country of 300 million people had become a country based on finance, how does that work I wonder... low and behold it doesn't does it. No doubt he thinks universal health care is just too darned expensive. Anyway, genetic fallacy on my part, sorry. Hmmm, don't you think that it is more a matter of priorities? We have the USDA ($95B/yr) which is primarily in place to give handouts to corporate farmers for NOT growing food, we spend hundreds of billions on wars based on outright lies, we give billions to other countries, we spend billions on "the war on drugs" which is another war we have been losing since its inception, we provide wonderful health care for our government employees (especially the Congress themselves)... hmmm, so all of this is NECESSARY, but caring about securing healthcare for the average citizen is not. I see, :roll:

$95 B get rid of USDA (corporate socialism for farmers, agribiz companies, etc)
$300 B cut defense budget in half (corp socialism for Blackwater, Haliburton, Boeing, and the rest of the military industrial complex)
$10 B foreign aid to (Israel, Iraq, Egypt, etc)
oh we can disband the Federal Reserve while we are at it (apparently they suck at their job so why bother) and the US dollar might stop losing its purchasing power
Bridges to nowhere, etc etc
take the monies back from the financial industry bailout (TARP, etc)
and let's not forget, that the health care systems in place in other countries costs maybe 50% less than the US system.

Time for the emperor to see he is wearing no clothing.

We can put men on the moon, but unlike other countries we cannot provide a health care safety net for our citizens... yeah right. Oh that reminds me (NASA + space shuttle :pirate: ). Obviously I'm jesting on the specifics, but when corporate socialism runs a muck, and THE PEOPLE get shafted, I get a bit peeved.

Well, dreaming/ranting again. Nothing will change. We will get some crap health plan out that is in place primarily to secure profits for the health care industrial complex.

Shall we wind this thread up now on that happy note :razz:
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Re: US Health Care Plan

Postby Texpat » January 3, 2010, 5:05 pm

While you're at it rjj, I don't want to have to pay for your therapy, either.
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