Venomous Snakes of Udon Thani

very good question , even a chart picturing the various snakes , at the hospital , im guessing would help . i dont think your likely to forget what a snake thats just bitten you looks like .

There are three distinct types of venom that act on the body differently.

* Hemotoxic venoms act on the heart and cardiovascular system.
* Neurotoxic venom acts on the nervous system and brain.
* Cytotoxic venom has a localized action at the site of the bite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_venom

i thought there was only 2, though the last one doesn't appear to be a worry.

by the time you get to the hospital, unless living close by, hopefully not, but you should be feeling the symptoms, if not just a warning snap at you, especially if neurotoxic, so may not need the snake. not sure about here, but one of the rattlers in states has a very nasty bite, mixture of venon, and very complicated to administer anti venon. the learning channel is great.

my best guess anyway.

oh, if you get a really good bite from a sea snake while diving, no worries, just keep the insurance paid, as you'll probably be dead before you hit the surface.

Brian, sorry for the long delay in response, I have been in the field and on the go over most of the past two weeks. To answer your question, no, that polyvalent antivenin is not used best to treat all vipers; it is only best used to treat our green pit vipers that we have here, those of the Trimeresurus complex, because they are so closely related. It is specifically produced from Trimeresurus (Cryptelytrops) albolabris. This does not work with equal efficiency for Calloselasma rhodostoma (Malayan Pit Viper), Daboia russelii (Russell’s Viper) or any other viper of a different, more distantly related clade. For Calloselasma rhodostoma and Daboia russellii there are different antivenins that are produced. If you are bitten by some other rare viper, such as Ovophis monticola, they would probably treat you with the antivenin from the more closely related Trimeresurus Complex antivenin.

If bitten and the snake cannot be identified, the hospital will not be experimenting (or should not be experimenting) with different types of antivenin. The most deadly of Thailand’s venomous snakes are rather distinct and easily identifiable, such as the different types of truly dangerous vipers (Daboia russelii and Calloselasma rhodostoma), cobras and kraits. In the case where the venom is taking serious effect and the snake was not properly identified, they are likely to administer a polyvalent antivenin for the general group of snakes, which is not as effective as a monovalent antivenin (produced for a specific species), except in the case that I gave earlier- snakes that belong to the same closely related clade.

Here are the antivenins produced here in Thailand (Queen Saovabha Memorial Institute):
Trimeresurus (Cryptelytrops) albolabris: for green tree vipers
Calloselasma rhodostoma: for Malayan pit viper
Daboia russelii: for Russell’s viper
Bungarus fasciatus: for kraits
Ophiophagus hannah: for king cobra
Naja kaouthia: for cobras and spitting cobras

LA, whoever wrote that Wikipedia page appears to have a rather poor knowledge of snake venom. Something that should stand out is the page is very poorly sourced with references. Reptile venoms are a highly technical and complex subject and as reference we see only one technical article consisting of one page concerning the effects. The header at the top says it all: “This article is in need of attention from an expert on the subject.”

One problem with simply categorising reptile venoms is that venom is very complex and rarely can be placed completely into a single category, e.g. monocle cobra venom is categorised as a neurotoxin, when it also causes localised tissue damage (which would also categorise it as a hemotoxin). The snake that you referred to in the US is Crotalus scutulatus (Mojave Rattlesnake). What makes this snake dangerous, besides having complex venom with more effects of a neurotoxin, is that its venom is distinct enough from the other members of its genus that the polyvalent used for the genus is not as effective with this species.

Cytotoxicity is not a major effect of any snake venom that I am aware of and such an effect would be the result of necrosis brought about by a strong hemotoxin’s effect, such as localised tissue damage resulting in necrosis. This is something that better describes the effect of a spider bite, like that of the ‘Brown Recluse’.

There are other categories of venom that one could list. One could have been venoms that cause a systemic or anaphylactoid reaction. Many snakes, to include those that most consider non-venomous have been found to have the ability to cause this reaction, which ranges from localised swelling at the bite area to shutting down of the respiratory system; the latter is seen only with more dangerous rear-fanged snakes. This is how one would simply describe the effect of bee venom, a venom that kills more 3-4 times more people in the US than all the different US snake bites combined. Snake venom, like that of Rhabdophis subminiatus have a venom that overwhelm the body with a toxin that destroys the kidneys, leading to renal failure- not sure how that would be categorised simply into one of the existing pigeon holes.

There is no snake that is going to rapidly kill you in a matter of seconds or even a minute; that is a myth. Someone could go into shock from fear, but then that would not be from the venom. I have been on a great many dives following sea snakes in the Pacific and Indian Ocean to watch their behaviour at close quarters and never had one act aggressively. The only bites that I know of are from people grabbing them or after they have been caught up in fishing nets. A great many people have survived a number of bites from the most venomous snakes, such as Bryan Fry. Speaking of Bryan, he has quite an informative website on venom: http://www.venomdoc.com/index.html Look at the left column to learn about different topics. He has also made most of his publications available on the website. Unfortunately, much of what is on his website requires a good understanding of biochemistry.

Bryan Fry wrote: There is more wrong information spread about sea snakes than just about any other type of snake. One 'fact' that is constantly repeated is that sea snakes have small fangs, so small that they have to bite you between the fingertips. Not sure where this one started from but its completely wrong. A little lucid thought should be enough to reveal this. Think about it for a minute, what do they feed on? Fish and eels. Which have tougher skin, us or fish and eels? Fish and eels of course. So, a sea snake has no problem getting through our skin. Indeed, the Stoke's sea snake can have fangs almost a centimeter long! Another wrong 'fact' constantly battered around is that sea snakes have tiny venom yields. The Stoke's is another good example of how wrong this is, they can deliver up to 150 milligrams! The most widely spread yet utterly incorrect statement is that sea snake venoms are vastly more toxic than land snake venoms. While sea snake venoms are certainly highly toxic, both the Inland taipan (Oxyuranus microlepidotus) and Eastern brown snake (Pseudonaja textiles) are more toxic than the most toxic sea snake (the Dubois' sea snake, Aipysurus duboisii).

i agree, rather generic info from that wiki page. as i saw a documentary one time, about a snake bite along mexican border of a rattler, and was amazed at the complexity of treating, as you mentioned, various aspects of the bite and complex venon was involved. extremely interesting and scary at the same time, as snakes are on the top of my list of things i fear. even knowing the chance of getting bit are rare, especially since i avoid their habitat as much as possible, except for that huge tail i saw slithering in the brush couple weeks ago, at the house, i feel safe.

continue on, your expertise is appreciated, i'll stick to taking pics of lizards when out and about, from my veranda at hotel.

Still, some good info in that wiki link. Damn cobras that can spit in your eye from 4 to 8 feet away. For once in my life I'm glad to be wearing specs or, in my case, prescription sunglasses.

Michael C, if the family pooch gets bitten by a poisonous snake will any of the antivenins work for them? If so, wonder if there is anyplace close that might be willing to use their antivenins for an animal? Guessing that the veterinary hospital in Khon Kaen might be too far away to save the dog.

polehawk wrote:Still, some good info in that wiki link. Damn cobras that can spit in your eye from 4 to 8 feet away. For once in my life I'm glad to be wearing specs or, in my case, prescription sunglasses.

Michael C, if the family pooch gets bitten by a poisonous snake will any of the antivenins work for them? If so, wonder if there is anyplace close that might be willing to use their antivenins for an animal? Guessing that the veterinary hospital in Khon Kaen might be too far away to save the dog.

I like wikipedia for quick information, but I always look into their source material because they are not always accurate. I gave the link to Bryan's page, since he is an authority on venom.

Yes, Naja siamensis, our local spitting cobra, can accurately spit to ca. 2m. The good thing is, if you wash out your eyes quickly, there is no long term affect (this will work for your dog too). The short term is great burning pain and blindness; long term is blindness if you do not wash out your eyes. It is always a good idea to have a bottle of water with you in Thailand to keep hydrated; here is another good reason to carry a bottle of water. Of course, you can always quickly go away from the snake.

Yes, antivenin would work for a dog; the antivenin in Thailand is produced from horses. I am not sure who would treat your dog with antivenin and they probably would have no idea how much to give (all dosages I have ever seen were for children or adults). A major problem is that antivenin is expensive (but far cheaper in Thailand than the EU and US) and they do not usually keep a large supply, since it must be kept refrigerated and only has a shelf life of ca. one year. This means they are not likely to give it up for a pet.

Michael C, thanks for the info. Research topics on Brian's page were interesting. Read that Australia was the only country with snake venom detection kits. A swab from the bite area will tell a doctor which antivenom to use. The kits sound like a must-have item for places like here but maybe they haven't been perfected yet or are cost-prohibitive.

Will leave the biochemistry sections for the real experts to mull over.

Thaitanium, that is Boiga dendrophila melanota from Southern Thailand, up to Chumphon Province. They sold these snakes as pets in the US until people had to go to hospital (emergency room) for snake bite treatment; now, they are often sold as venomous snakes. Some people can have a serious reaction to its bite, some people do not have any reaction at all. It is a shame to see them kept in such improper conditions. Here is what they look like in their natural habitat, this was taken at Khao Nan National Park, Nakhon Si Thammarat:

Michael C wrote:There is no snake that is going to rapidly kill you in a matter of seconds or even a minute; that is a myth.

Excellent stuff again Michael, thank you.

I think above will be good news to readers.

Certainly, I must learn to identify the dangerous snakes.

A visit to my local hospital might be worthwhile just to check their arrangements in cases of snake bites (or would it be best just to make for Udon?).

It would be a pity to avoid mushroom picking in the forest depths, as I know the villagers appreciate my valiant efforts!

I find your approach, Mr laphanphon, somewhat disturbing. I've lived in Australia 40 years, including habitats for some of the most venomous creatures on Earth. I have had several encounters with snakes. When in the wilderness, I let them pass. When they ventured into my living space, they were captured and relocated. The only snake I have ever killed was one I'd found injured from being run over. Very young children were never left out of sight. They are educated from the earliest days on what to do if confronted with danger. When danger entered the yard, children were kept at a safe distance, but not necessarily out of view from the handling a visiting snake.

There is precious little wilderness left in Thailand. The country is seriously over populated, and your presence is contributing to this overpopulation. I implore you to review your approach to the native flora and fauna. Whatever your legal status is in the country, you are still and will always be 'farang'. The animals you kill belong there.

I fully understand, respect and empathize with the instinct to protect your children. It may be interesting to note that my father was a killer of snakes etc when our family settled in Australia. I was disturbed by it even at the earliest age. However, I am pleased now to see my own son, and others of neighbours of mine, has grown up with deep sense of preservation of nature.

With my sincere regards.

whilst i agree with your sentiments entirely i 49 , there are several farangs and thai alike that have a total fear of snakes . misguided fear maybe , but fear non the less . snakes are like the european wolf , in my veiw totaly misunderstood , considered somewhat evil , but in truth mostly harmless . if you suffer from a fobia of these creatures its very dificult to be calm and calculated when meeting one face to face . i come from a country where you could never see a snake in the wild in your entire life , where these creatures natural habitat has been reduced to national parks and isolated patches of land where no sane person would want to live , whilst in thailand ive encountered many snakes , and only once have felt a threat , which was my fault for getting a lttle too close , and the snake reared up , i assumed as a warning and i backed off , he went on his way and i went on mine . the key to mastering any fear in my view is education , thats why this thread and the efforts put into it by micheal C , and others , i find fascinating , not only for recognition purposes , but to enlighten us all as to any dangers these creatures may or may not pose . personaly my fear is spiders , of which ,i kid you not , i found one in my kitchen yesturday as big as my hand !!!!!! so if anyone out there can educate me about them , maybe , just maybe i wont break out into a cold sweat when i meet the next sucker .

Yes saint, isn't it ever so true about wolves. And I have lived in Norway many years too, where not so many years ago, they brought out hunters in military style to track one pack that had strayed in from Sweden no doubt. The Swedes even offered to take them, but the Norwegians pigheadedly went ahead with the slaughter, and were even proud of it. Sickening.

Back to snakes, one of the poems I was introduced to at school that ever meant anything to me is "Snake" by D.H.Lawrence. I believe it neatly frames our discussion. Something in it for all of us.

http://homepages.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poe ... snake.html

I find your approach, Mr laphanphon, somewhat disturbing

yea, well that happens some times, oh well, different strokes for different folks. i built the old house/wall fairly snake proof, as i really don't like them, and i also hate killing anything, as bit of a nature lover myself. BUT, since i am far from an expert, and have had no luck catching and removing, though really didnt' make much effort, as cornering and killing was difficult enough. with one exception, i think the other 4 or so were definitely poisonous, that triangular viper look, and with kids around, i'm not willing to take that chance. obviously the cobra and krait were getting killed, no matter, and i don't think i put that big a dent in the snake population. the rather large one i noticed at the new house, well, i kind of like him/her, as i seem to be seeing less cats in the yard, and the snake, guessing is quite large, so something i'm going to see and give way to.

scorpion and them damn centipedes will also get the same fate as a poisonous snake, death on site. this is a small village with too many kids, which their safety, i consider a priority, even though they don't seem to know what the 3 trash bins across the street are for.