A bit of advice for a Friend

[mrj792]

I have a friend in the village with me. He is currently renting a house from a Thai Lady that he Paid in full and then had a legal agreement to rent the property for the next 30 years for 300bt a month. Since then the Thai lady has borrowed 400kbt from the bank and used the property as collateral. She has a massive gambling problem. Can the bank kick him out if she doesn't pay? Is the Legal agreement worth anything in court? I am at a loss for advice to give my friend. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank's

[harmonyudon]

I only know that such lease/rent agreement must be registered at the department of land.
Is the lease agreement registered there??

[mrj792]

I am not sure
I know that a Thai lawyer made the papers up. How can I verify this?

[tamada]

Get the same Thai lawyer that drafted the 'agreement' to verify if it went anywhere beyond just the two parties involved, ie. was it registered at the land department.

Your friend may find himself in a position that he had not considered if the lady does default, the bank calls it in and he has some liquidity.

[maaka]

from what I can gather, any lease over 3yrs HAS to be formally registered with the Land Office, and if a man had a 30yr lease, and the underlying land was sold from under him, the lease would still stand...just my opinion and not to be taken as legal advice

[tutone]

Why would a bank loan 400,000 Baht if there was a legitimate 30 year lease on the collateral property? They could not recoup their money by selling the land if the borrower defaulted on the loan repayment. I also know from personal experience that the land office will not register a 30 year lease agreement if there is a lien on the property. So your friend might have a problem. He needs expert advice from his lawyer.

[maaka]

can the OP just clarify the term ' property ' ..has your mate just a legal agreement to rent/lease the actual house itself, like a tenancy agreement , or has a lease to the actual land the house sits on as well ???

[mrj792]

The land was purchased outright for 300k bt. and there were no liens on the property at the time of the rental agreement. The house sits on 1/4 rai sp? and the agreement is for the house and land it sits on. I don't think that she made the bank aware that there was a lease agreement on the property. As for the bank being smart about the loan. She has no job and just took a picture of a noodle shop that she ran for a week and went to the bank to get the loan. It just doesn't make any sense to me. That is a whole separate topic though. I will tell him to get in touch with the Lawyer and see if it will hold up.
Thanks for the help so far.

[trubrit]

The land was purchased outright for 300k bt. and there were no liens on the property at the time of the rental agreement. The house sits on 1/4 rai sp? and the agreement is for the house and land it sits on. I don't think that she made the bank aware that there was a lease agreement on the property. As for the bank being smart about the loan. She has no job and just took a picture of a noodle shop that she ran for a week and went to the bank to get the loan. It just doesn't make any sense to me. That is a whole separate topic though. I will tell him to get in touch with the Lawyer and see if it will hold up.
Thanks for the help so far.

A mortgage on land has no legal significance unless it has been endorsed on the land registry paper by the land registry office .
Without that the land is regarded as unencumbered and yes, a bank will give a loan against it and retain title to it until the debt is cleared .The bank is not really interested in the ability of the person getting the loan to repay as they have an assett in their hand worth far more than they loaned .You really do need a lawyer as at present you have no security at all .
Incidentally, although I am not sure on this, having never done it , I think any lease granted on the land is also recorded on the land registry .

[Billg]

Hi Guys
Just taking a different look at this and I feel sorry for the Thai lady renting a 1/4 rai land with property for 300 bht a month or 3600 bht a year or 108,000bht total for 30 year.
with out having the full info at my disposal I wonder Who is scaming Who?
maybe he should notch this up on his WBU enrolment

thanks
billg

[mrj792]

I understand that I haven't filled in all the details. My friend gave the money to the lady to purchase the 1/4 rai for 300k baht. She then went to take out a loan from the bank on the land that is not even worth 50k baht. She then gambled the money away as well as her own property and two motor bikes. I think that she is scamming him. The total for the land being 408,000 bht for 30 years.

[maaka]

it is confusing OP when on one hand you use terms like 'purchase' for 300k , and then on the other use the words lease for 30yrs..then you use 300k full price, and then 408 total price..

I take it your mate is single and therefore couldnt buy a piece of dirt in a wifes or GF name..was it his intention to pay the purchase price 300k with the idea in mind that someday he might get married and then could change the title over to said wifey , or was his intention just to pay the full price merely to lease the land for 30yrs and nothing more??

see alot of legally begally things come down to ' intent' ..what was the intention of both parties in the original legal contract....your words re purchase/lease , 300k v 408k is confusing to me...if it is a lease then use words like full rental price, rather than purchase price...

[mrj792]

The land was purchased by my friend in the name of his girlfriend. He payed for the land and had a lawyer write up a lease agreement for the term of 30 years. He just wants to live there and in 30 years he would be 95 which he has no plans to be around that long. I will have my friend talk to the lawyer that set up the agreement to see if it was registered or not. The figure of 408k Bt was to clarify the post about 108k bt for 30 years. Thanks for all the Help.

[maaka]

thanks for the update mjr..always little bits of new information comes out with each question I raise..

so I take it the girlfriend is the same lady you referred to that took out the bank loan and gambles .

so yes I will still stand by my earlier comments that a lease over 3yrs in during MUST BE registered with the land office, and even if the land is sold to a third party, by the girlfriend owner, or the bank steps in, the lease should still hold sway, and like I said before, your mate come ten or fifteen years from now, can sublease the land out again for another 30yrs to say his kids should he so wish.....thats as I understand it , but these matters should be clarified by a good land lawyer..if you cannot understand the thai lawyer in question, I am sure the english speaking lawyers at Isaanlawyers.com, or siam - lawyers.com will set you straight.

[laphanphon]

i was going to PM you, but that option is not available to me.

YES, you / your friend is being scammed.

1. did he actually see the chanote and transfer at land office

2. did he sign the lease at land office, as it must be registered and he must sign it at land office, and he gets a copy, correct info, any lease of more than 3 years must be registered. landlords don't like to register, then they have to pay tax on income at signing and registration of lease.

3. 30 year lease can be cancelled by a wife one year after divorce, legal wife, registered married, not vodoo village scam sh*t

4. lawyer, if a lawyer, may be part of the scam if # 1 - 2 were not done in his / friend's presence.......it's that simple

5. if # 1 and #2 were done properly, which also means, she / he was charged tax (income) for the full legnth of lease, payable when lease was signed and registered, another way to tell if lease is registered. tax used to be 1 %

unless laws have been changed in last 7 years, doubtful, you can take this as legal advice, though i'm not a lawyer, but did this 1st hand, without a lawyer. the lawyer can draw up the lease, he can not sign his name unless power of attorney was given to the lawyer. power of attorney is a joke here, and no signature of signees or witnesses (2) must be notorized, i also know this from 1st hand experience, having ex wife sign 3 blank power of attorneys to new girlfriend, so i could sell land and house i paid for, and i videod the signing so she could not deny it. all contracts must be in thai, if not, not acceptable. then transferred everything immediately to gf name, then sold. that property was then sold again. so no legal problem, as done correctly.

so if friend did not go to land office to sign lease, pay her taxes do for entire 30 years, actually very little, then he is being scammed. i would be surprised if he did this, also would be surprised if the 'lawyer' was a lawyer, especially if she recommended him.

basically, if he didn't do the above, he's F'd. if he did the above and is legally / registered married, do not agree to a divorce until all financial matters are finished............that simple. if all legal, once divorced, wife can cancel lease after one year. if not divorce or gf, and lease legal, the land can be sold......but he has the right to live their according to terms of the lease...........that simple. when i transferred the land / house from ex to gf, i had to cancel lease 1st. on back of chanote there are seperate entries. one for original deeding to owners we bought from, one for transfer to ex, one for cancelling lease by me, one for transfer from ex to gf, the gf to new owner. all seperate and stamped entries. these are all mandatory. all he has to do to verify this is go to land office with her copy of chanote and ask to see lease if not having a copy........simple.

the lease is a fill in the blanks form the land office rep will simply take the info of both parties, type in computer, no paperwork. push a button and 3 copies of lease are printed off computer. one stays with land papers, one for each party.

unless all is as above............scammed and tell him to simply walk away before losing any more money....real simple.

side note, think all that legal paperwork for lease done at land office was 70 baht, so hope lawyer didn't cost that much. in the future, whether married or gf, get a 'userfrunct', for life, 2 types, use, or use and modify land and property. no taxes paid and can not be cancelled and good for life. if law still applicable.

now back to my cave....................