America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

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Lone Star
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 13, 2019, 4:37 pm

Barney wrote:
August 13, 2019, 4:17 pm
Just a comment
. . .
Keep the guns, I don't care, but the people of the USA need to have a good hard look at themselves, admit something is wrong and not be so defensive and aggressive in using the 2nd amendment.
. . .
His whole recreation is shooting. Good luck to him but it isn't my cup of tea.
Articulated well.

Americans do have a hard look at themselves. Most lawful gun owners, and people who don't own guns but favor the 2nd Amendment, believe that the current laws on the books aren't enforced properly and that there are too many privacy restrictions on people with mental issues to be able to make sure than they don't possess weapons. Even states that have enacted some form of "red flag" laws have hamstrung themselves by including restrictions that prevent certain groups from reporting on "dangerous people." More PC culture silencing concerns.

As your last sentence seemed to state, to each their own. Every country has the right to self-determination. I don't criticize other countries for choosing to disarm. That's their business. They can do whatever makes them happy. I don't even privately think badly of them. Self-determination is important within societies.

As I've stated repeatedly, if Americans wanted to disarm, they can alter the 2nd Amendment through the amendment process -- constitutionally. They don't do it. Congress doesn't do it. A "Convention of States" can accomplish the process of proposing constitutional amendments for ratification and can bypass Congress all together. That doesn't happen either. The message seems clear.


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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Doodoo » August 13, 2019, 4:51 pm

LS
All yo had to say was
"Here Are The Actual Federal Laws Regulating Machine Guns In The U.S.
Private ownership of machine guns made after 1986 is banned by federal law. All pre-1986 automatic weapons must be registered with the ATF and require extensive background checks before private citizens may own them."

So the answer is YES you can own a fully automatic weapon in the USA"

Not a long drawn out story you may call it Short and to the point
YES, ANYONE (general population or not) in the USA may own an automatic weapon, done

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 13, 2019, 4:59 pm

Doodoo wrote:
August 13, 2019, 4:51 pm
As I stated, I don't contribute to this forum to reach any illusory benchmark you may have, and I'm not likely to take any posting advice from you.

Have a good evening.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Doodoo » August 13, 2019, 5:16 pm

As I have said before you can take the help I give your posts in telling the whole story (my benchmark) If you don't wish to accept that is up to yourself

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 14, 2019, 5:25 am



"Red flag" laws are directly related to school shootings, the most high profile ones being mass shootings. (There are school shootings that are not considered a mass shooting.)

Lindsey Graham discusses the current discussions over "red flag" laws, and it appears that it will be in the form of grants to states to create these red flag laws. Not surprisingly, it is being left to the states, which makes sense. Local authorities have a better handle on local issues and local individuals with "issues" that cause them to be disarmed. Federal bureaucrats are too detached. (There are federal laws involving firearms.)

Due process is important. People deserve a hearing before a right to bear arms is denied. Due process is a constitutional right.

Graham points out -- correctly -- that the Parkland school shooter had over 40 "red flags" that included police visits, problems at school, threats upon other students, etc. There was also a set of federal behavior guidelines for minority students that gave them a pass on "issues" because of their race. That's another story. Go look it up. Again, PC culture allowed Parkland to happen because no one wanted to act against that maniac before he became a mass shooter.

I would favor "red flag" laws if they are handled locally, provide adequate due process, and do not hamstring themselves in protecting privacy of mentally challenged individuals. If it isn't done well and done correctly, it is another useless gun law.

No law works well if it isn't written well or enforced.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Barney » August 14, 2019, 11:39 am

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by AlexO » August 14, 2019, 4:29 pm

Lone Star wrote:
August 13, 2019, 5:44 am
AlexO wrote:
August 12, 2019, 3:27 pm
. . .

A/ When was the last time a patriotic citizen "carrying" was able to prevent these crimes by shooting the perp and prevented these mass shootings

. . .
There are several surveys quoted in this article. The numbers range from 100,000 uses of firearms in self defense per year to 2.5 million or more.

https://www.wnd.com/2005/09/32103/

The number of times firearms are used in defense for law-abiding citizens is thousands more times than the homicide rate with firearms in the US.
Edited by you LS. and totally out of context. The question was When was the last time a patriotic citizen "carrying" was able to 'prevent' these these mass killings. If as you claim the numbers of times a weapon is used in self defence is between 100s of thousands up to 2.5 million times where are all the bodies hidden.?? Just a thought.

On another post you claimed that if a weapon is not fully automatic its not an assault weapon. I carried as my personal weapon a 7.62mm Self Loading Rifle for many years and throughout the conflicts in Malaysia, Borneo, Oman, Aden, Northern Ireland and the Falklands I think you will find it was classified as the British Army's main personal assault rifle.

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 14, 2019, 8:12 pm

AlexO wrote:
August 14, 2019, 4:29 pm
Lone Star wrote:
August 13, 2019, 5:44 am
AlexO wrote:
August 12, 2019, 3:27 pm
. . .

A/ When was the last time a patriotic citizen "carrying" was able to prevent these crimes by shooting the perp and prevented these mass shootings

. . .
There are several surveys quoted in this article. The numbers range from 100,000 uses of firearms in self defense per year to 2.5 million or more.

https://www.wnd.com/2005/09/32103/

The number of times firearms are used in defense for law-abiding citizens is thousands more times than the homicide rate with firearms in the US.
Edited by you LS. and totally out of context. The question was When was the last time a patriotic citizen "carrying" was able to 'prevent' these these mass killings. If as you claim the numbers of times a weapon is used in self defence is between 100s of thousands up to 2.5 million times where are all the bodies hidden.?? Just a thought.

On another post you claimed that if a weapon is not fully automatic its not an assault weapon. I carried as my personal weapon a 7.62mm Self Loading Rifle for many years and throughout the conflicts in Malaysia, Borneo, Oman, Aden, Northern Ireland and the Falklands I think you will find it was classified as the British Army's main personal assault rifle.
What was edited by me? I gave you the link with the surveys. :)

I provided data where Americans defend themselves every day and multiple times per day every year with firearms. I was only making the case for having one. There are thousands more lives saved every year in the US with firearms than are taken. That's just a fact.

As for mass shootings, I can think of two right off.

There was a church massacre where an NRA instructor was present (Sutherland Springs, TX in November 2017), went to his truck, got his AR15 and stopped a massacre from continuing.

Just last week, at a Walmart in Springfield, MO, there was a man entering with a weapon who was stopped and taken alive by an off-duty fireman with a concealed carry permit.

There have been others where someone interceded either before or during the shooting. Research it.

However, you must consider this: Many of these mass shootings take place in GUN FREE ZONES. All schools are posted "gun free zones." In some states, a concealed carry permit will not allow an adult to carry in a gun free zone no matter what. These shooters pick those targets purposely.

The definition I provided on "assault rifles" is not my own. That's the legal definition in some states. All 50 states have different gun laws. Some are alike or similar by coincidence. That's how the law is written in some states. I don't know how other countries classify their weapons (and I don't much care ... up to what they want to do), and I didn't realize we were talking worldwide. I can only speak to the US, and I thought we were discussing legal definitions in the US.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by jackspratt » August 14, 2019, 8:43 pm

Lone Star wrote:
August 14, 2019, 8:12 pm

As for mass shootings, I can think of two right off.

There was a church massacre where an NRA instructor was present (Sutherland Springs, TX in November 2017), went to his truck, got his AR15 and stopped a massacre from continuing.
Kelley was shot as he was exiting the church, after killing 26, and wounding 20.

So the mass killing was not prevented, and there doesn't appear to be any evidence that Kelley was intent on continuing his killing spree after he left the church.
Just last week, at a Walmart in Springfield, MO, there was a man entering with a weapon who was stopped and taken alive by an off-duty fireman with a concealed carry permit.
There is no evidence that Andreychenko was intent on killing anyone - to the contrary, he says he was testing his 2nd amendment rights.

Hilariously ironical. :D

Further research definitely required. =D>

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 14, 2019, 8:50 pm

AlexO wrote:
August 14, 2019, 4:29 pm

. . .
where are all the bodies hidden.?? Just a thought.

. . . assault rifle.
What bodies? Are you assuming that there is a justifiable homocide in every instance where a firearm is used by someone to defend themselves?

You'd have to consult FBI crime stats to know that.

And I will add that some agencies don't even use the term "assault rifle" because it's too easily misunderstood and ambiguous. They just cut to the chase and use fully automatic or semiautomatic.

I've never used the term "assault rifle" in my own conversations to describe a weapon.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 14, 2019, 9:53 pm

Lone Star wrote:
August 14, 2019, 8:12 pm
. . .

However, you must consider this: Many of these mass shootings take place in GUN FREE ZONES. All schools are posted "gun free zones." In some states, a concealed carry permit will not allow an adult to carry in a gun free zone no matter what. These shooters pick those targets purposely.

. . .
I didn't realize that the percentage of mass shootings in "gun free zones" was so high. I would have guessed maybe 75%. Never would have guessed over 90%.

The Crime Prevention Research Center did a study on mass shootings and found that 94% of all mass shootings are done in "gun free zones."

Here's a link to their study:
https://crimeresearch.org/2018/06/more- ... shootings/

I haven't read it, so whatever you find, tip of the hat.

By coincidence, Sleepy Joe Biden is the one who came up with the bright idea of "gun free zones." The intent was to prevent mass shootings, but that would mean that Sleepy Joe and those who voted for it assumed that criminals obey the law. Criminals do not obey laws, and as a result, the law has not resulted in the desired outcome. Having no one with a firearm in a "gun free zone" means it's open season. Democrats are undisputed Champions of Unintended Consequences.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by AlexO » August 14, 2019, 10:17 pm

They just cut to the chase and use fully automatic or semiautomatic.

LS
Sorry buddy but in my humble opinion unless the USA have some really scary deer why would anyone need an automatic or semi automatic rifle or large capacity magazines with extra large caliber rounds attached to hunting rifles. Just go onto some You Tube sites and see what people can do with semi automatic weapons. Anything resembling a military grade weapon that uses the same caliber round that is used in warfighting whether full auto or semi auto is an assault rifle in most peoples opinion.

"What bodies? Are you assuming that there is a justifiable homocide in every instance where a firearm is used by someone to defend themselves?" (ps, you have spelled homicide incorrectly, be careful, some of your less right wing opponents might take this to task)

Just making the point that according to your figures, guns of all sorts are used some hundreds of thousands and maybe up to 2.5 million times a year to defend US citizens. What do they do with these guns. Throw them at each other?? If not some people need some serious firearms training.

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by AlexO » August 15, 2019, 12:27 am

Ok
I believe that the people born in the good old US of A have now the God Given Right to carry self defensive weapons and Amendment 2 of your book of rules gives you the right to bear arms when arms were muskets that could not be fired more than 3 times a minute. I just hope it is not anyone's family member who is slaughtered now, that suffers from your up to date interpretation of the book of rules. Careful of that angry deer.

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 15, 2019, 6:18 am

Lone Star wrote:
August 14, 2019, 8:12 pm
. . .

As for mass shootings, I can think of two right off.

There was a church massacre where an NRA instructor was present (Sutherland Springs, TX in November 2017), went to his truck, got his AR15 and stopped a massacre from continuing.

Just last week, at a Walmart in Springfield, MO, there was a man entering with a weapon who was stopped and taken alive by an off-duty fireman with a concealed carry permit.

There have been others where someone interceded either before or during the shooting. Research it.

. . .
Found another one in my news feed last night. Wasn't looking for any, but the media seems to be recounting other similar events since El Paso and Dayton. There'll probably be more pop up here and there.

A Walmart in Tumwater, Washington in June 2018. Civilian pastor who also works at the fire department as an EMT, took down the shooter after at least two people were shot.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 15, 2019, 6:51 pm

AlexO wrote:
August 14, 2019, 10:17 pm
. . .
in my humble opinion unless the USA have some really scary deer why would anyone need an automatic or semi automatic rifle or large capacity magazines with extra large caliber rounds attached to hunting rifles.
Told you before. The 2nd Amendment is not about hunting. It also has nothing to do with muskets firing single shots.
Just go onto some You Tube sites and see what people can do with semi automatic weapons. Anything resembling a military grade weapon that uses the same caliber round that is used in warfighting whether full auto or semi auto is an assault rifle in most peoples opinion.
I've owned several semiautomatic scary looking rifles. I know what they're capable of doing. It's not about anyone's opinion. I'm not denying that a live round of the same caliber is less harmful from a semiautomatic. I provided the legal definition used in some parts of the US. I never provided a personal opinion on that specific issue, but you're always entitled to your opinion. If you and others want to call them all assault rifles, go for it.
Just making the point that according to your figures, guns of all sorts are used some hundreds of thousands and maybe up to 2.5 million times a year to defend US citizens. What do they do with these guns. Throw them at each other?? If not some people need some serious firearms training.
Do research if it interests you. I have no idea, but I'm guessing that many run away if they're able to do so.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by AlexO » August 16, 2019, 5:15 am

Lone Star wrote:
August 15, 2019, 6:18 am
Lone Star wrote:
August 14, 2019, 8:12 pm
. . .

As for mass shootings, I can think of two right off.

There was a church massacre where an NRA instructor was present (Sutherland Springs, TX in November 2017), went to his truck, got his AR15 and stopped a massacre from continuing.

Just last week, at a Walmart in Springfield, MO, there was a man entering with a weapon who was stopped and taken alive by an off-duty fireman with a concealed carry permit.

There have been others where someone interceded either before or during the shooting. Research it.

. . .
The Sutherland Springs church shooting occurred on November 5, 2017, when Devin Patrick Kelley of New Braunfels, Texas, fatally shot 26 people and wounded 20 others during a mass shooting at the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, Texas, about 30 miles east of the city of San Antonio. Kelley was shot twice by a bystander when he exited the church and fled in his Sport Utility Vehicle until he crashed during a high-speed chase and died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head.


That's what research brings up LS. Seems your NRA Instructor with his AR15 did not have a really big input. 26 dead 20 injured. The nutcase commits suicide and the NRA claim a victory???

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Re: America Today.

Post by jackspratt » September 20, 2019, 10:00 am

Lone Star wrote:
March 2, 2019, 9:52 pm

California is as socialist as a state could be. Sky high taxes and dirt poor poverty.
But that's OK - because you have now given it the tick.

http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/v ... 37#p554637

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Re: America Today.

Post by Lone Star » September 20, 2019, 10:18 am

jackspratt wrote:
September 20, 2019, 10:00 am
. . .
Exactly.

I have always stated that every state and their citizens can create the society they wish within the law.

Californians can live however they wish. Even if the result is bad for their citizens. Those citizens who don't like it have the freedom to move wherever they think is better. It's that way in every state. If you don't like something in a state, don't live there.

It's how a federal republic with separation of powers works. See the 9th and 10th Amendments.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by GT93 » September 21, 2019, 4:57 am

California is, of course, an American success story. Among other successes:

"It has the nation’s second-highest life expectancy, comparable to that in European nations with much higher life expectancy than America as a whole. This is, by the way, a relatively new development: Back in 1990, life expectancy in California was only average."

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/19/opin ... ornia.html

Krugman continues:

"Conservatives confidently predicted disaster, declaring that the state was committing “economic suicide.” You might think that the failure of that disaster to materialize, especially combined with the way California has outperformed states like Kansas and North Carolina that turned hard right while it was turning left, might induce them to reconsider their worldview. That is, you might think that if you haven’t been paying any attention to the right-wing mind-set."

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » September 21, 2019, 5:58 am

.

Andrew Pollack is the father of slain student, Meadow Jade Pollack, who was murdered in the Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. Mr. Pollack did an extensive investigation and wrote a book that outlines the failures of government on all levels to protect the children in that high school and everywhere else in the US.

Why Meadow Died: The People and Policies that Created the Parkland Shooter and Endanger America’s Students

You would think that after suffering such a horrific loss that Mr. Pollack would be an anti-gun advocate today. Far from it. Mr. Pollack contends that liberal views as they apply to education policies, laws and school discipline not only increase the risk of school shootings, but had a direct effect on the why his daughter was a victim. Pollack is a proponent of increasing armed security in schools.

Pollack contends that the failure of schools to hold students accountable -- to coddle them even after repeated offenses of disruption and violence, and a failure to report it to law enforcement authorities -- emboldens those students to become more disruptive and violent.

As an educator in public schools for almost three decades, I agree with Mr. Pollack. I witnessed it firsthand. I even engaged those criminals on campus regularly. I didn't have to look for them. They were everywhere.

Before I retired from teaching and coaching, there was a new directive from the federal government. The federal government usually does not involve itself in local education, but if a school system accepts federal funds for any purpose, that school system is forever beholden to the over-regulating federal government. That's a discussion for another day.

This new directive was called the PROMISE Program. PROMISE was an acronym for Preventing Recidivism through Opportunities, Mentoring, Interventions, Supports & Education. It was focused specifically on racial and ethnic quotas as they applied to discipline in public schools. In short, this new idea fostered by the Obama Administration gave students a pass for bad behavior -- and repeated bad behavior. It operated under the belief that children of color were unfairly targeted or that those same demographics needed to be treated differently than other students. Yes, that's a racist belief, but at the local level -- despite what any federal bureaucrat spewed -- that's what it was about.

PROMISE was one of the main targets in Mr. Pollack's book, and he notes that in Broward County, the county in Florida where his daughter's high school is located, felonies have risen for those in the 18 to 25 age category.

Pollack lays the guilt for his daughter's death at the feet of those who implemented these guilt-free, punishment-free policies that allowed offenders access to the school environment after repeated offenses.

The PROMISE program made things even worse as time passed. It began to include violent and emotionally disturbed students in their coddling exercises. For someone in those categories to be lumped in with the "special needs" students, is as wrong and negligent as housing a murderer with a shoplifter in prison. The school shooter in Parkland was labeled as "special needs." Unless teachers in the school had a need to know, the specifics of that student remains unknown. The privacy of the student is protected over and above the risk that he/she may pose to the school environment. Unless someone on campus was involved in a hearing involving that student, they wouldn't know to be vigilant.

California just passed SB 419. It bans suspensions of willfully defiant students from kindergarten through 8th grade. Bad behavior ignored is bad behavior rewarded.

If a record of violations is not reported to authorities, and sanctions and punishments are not imposed for the bad behavior, two things will occur that make the matter worse.

1. The offender has no record for a background check to flag. By coincidence, that's why the Parkland shooter was able to legally purchase a firearm. There was no record.
2. Because the offender is never held accountable for his/her actions, the offender is enabled by the society to continue their bad behavior. This also trains them to believe that they can do anything they wish without consequences.
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