Capitalism vs Socialism

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Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Lone Star » September 19, 2019, 7:05 am



Interview conducted in 2015.

88% of millionaires in America in 2015 were first generation millionaires. That shows the ability to achieve within the capitalist system by those who start with their own skills and creativity and haven't inherited their wealth.


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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by GT93 » September 20, 2019, 1:57 am

I'm not sure if this new political thread will get much traction.

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by TJ » September 20, 2019, 4:04 am

It might lack interest due to the ambiguity of the meaning of these terms.

I believe that Marx coined the term capitalism as a pejorative or disparaging label for free enterprise. A comparison of the free enterprise system to socialism would be more apt.

But the general understanding of the meaning and workings of socialism is even more difficult. If socialism is simply seen in the Utopian scenario in which the governing socialists control production and distribution of goods and services equally among all people, it is easily proven to be a very poor economic system. Ludwig Mises, the highly regarded economist's book 'Socialism' completely debunks socialism as a viable economic model.

Today people push for state socialism because of the natural human desire and preference to live off their neighbor rather than rely upon their own labor and resources. People want freebies and an easy living, not equality and poverty.

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Lone Star » September 20, 2019, 7:26 am

.

Yes, coming to grips with an agreed-upon definition of terms is required for any discussion.

From my perspective, any federal policy or federal program or federal legislation that takes assets from one person and gives it directly to another person or private business is anti-capitalism (anti free enterprise). I am against all similar redistribution. For anyone reading this who may be unsure about what I mean: ALL MEANS ALL. This would include welfare, student loans, food stamps, or any subsidy to any individual or private business, or any bailout for any individual or private business. There are bankruptcy laws for that reason.

The federal government (the legislative referee) should not pick winners and losers. However, if state and local governments wish to approve of such things, that is up the people of those particular states. For example: I know of at least one state where I lived where they have provided a public health care system for the state's citizens for DECADES -- long before health care became the issue it is today. As long as the states wish to provide such things, their state constitution allows it and the citizens approve it, then it's up to them.

Anti-capitalists attempt to use the funding of government services like police and fire protection and roads and bridges and other similar government expenditures as socialist. They are wrong. Taxes that fund state and local government services that are of equal benefit to everyone are not redistributing wealth from one person to another. Again, it's up to state and local governments -- and their citizens -- to determine their role. It's not the role of the federal government.
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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by pf-flyer » September 20, 2019, 12:07 pm

“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

― Margaret Thatcher
"Life is like a tube of toothpaste. Outward pressure brings out the inward contents."

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by TJ » September 20, 2019, 12:51 pm

pf-flyer wrote:
September 20, 2019, 12:07 pm
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”

― Margaret Thatcher
That doesn't fully describe the situation. The U.S. government has spent all the taxpayer's money and then saddled the U.S. citizens with an additional twenty-two trillion dollar and growing debt. Then there are the hundreds or more (?) unfunded pensions coming due to retiring socialist-government agents that creates another massive debt that will have to be paid with other people's money. And that is not all.

My guess is that the people in socialist Europe are in the same situation or worse with all past tax money spent and future tax money forfeited for payment of debts previously accrued.

What used to be tax and spend is now tax and borrow and spend.

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Lone Star » September 21, 2019, 3:56 pm



Milton Friedman is the man!
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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Doodoo » September 21, 2019, 4:41 pm

"Milton Friedman is the man!"

I am surprised you are in so much admiration of this man and you are not calling him a CLOWN as you did Mr Krugman with his stance on the recession. Mr Friedman makes it quite clear he sees Illegal Immigration as a Boon. My understanding that this is something you and the rest of the tribe are dead set against so why no ruckus?

I am confused why one man Shines while the other should be in a Circus.


Immigration
Friedman favored immigration, saying "legal and illegal immigration has a very positive impact on the U.S. economy." Friedman however suggested that immigrants ought not to have access to the welfare system. Friedman stated that immigration from Mexico had been a "good thing", in particular illegal immigration. Friedman argued that illegal immigration was a boon because they "take jobs that most residents of this country are unwilling to take, they provide employers with workers of a kind they cannot get" and they do not use welfare.

No arbitrary obstacles should prevent people from achieving those positions for which their talents fit them and which their values lead them to seek. Not birth, nationality, color, religion, sex, nor any other irrelevant characteristic should determine the opportunities that are open to a person — only his abilities.
Some copy and past was utilized in this production

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milton_Friedman

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Lone Star » September 21, 2019, 5:05 pm

Milton Friedman
. . .
If sincere in your inquisitiveness, expand your research beyond 15 minutes, Wikipedia and cut & paste.

It might take a few hours and some repetitive readings -- as it did for me as a young man -- but you'll have the satisfaction of finding the answer on your own.
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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Doodoo » September 21, 2019, 5:27 pm

I have read and followed Milton for years, no need. I was askin you not Milton
But since you can t answer
No cut and paste was utilized in this production

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Lone Star » September 21, 2019, 5:32 pm

I have read and followed Milton for years
. . .
Then you should have your answer.
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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Doodoo » September 21, 2019, 5:46 pm

You didnt read or comprehend
"Asking you not Uncle Milty"

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Lone Star » September 22, 2019, 10:57 am

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by pipoz4444 » October 3, 2019, 2:02 pm

Try and name one Country that has a Socialist System that has been successful (by that I mean the country as a whole has prospered, with sound development of its Institutions, such as the Legal system, Schools & Universities (that actually teach something relevant to today's World), Hospitals, Infrastructure and the like, along with providing their people with job opportunities, at a reasonable wage/salary.

If my memory is correct, those countries who have tried to implement a Socialist government system or one close to Socialism, haven"t done so well.

For all the critics of the Capitalist systems or partial Capitalist System, what is your alternative? :-k :-s :-s The answer is None, you don't have one. Socialism or Democratic Socialism, eventually fails and of holds the country back preventing it from developing into a 21st Century society, as in the case of Venezuela, Laos, Cuba, Nepal etc.

Whilst not all the Capitalist countries are ideal in the way they govern, and whilst all are not void of corruption, a majority do function and do have sound/stable Legal system, Schools & Universities, Hospitals, Infrastructure, Wage structures and the like for their people.

Capitalism may not be perfect, but it is certainly the lesser of the two evils, if one is comparing Capitalism to Socialism.

Just my two cents worth

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Doodoo » October 3, 2019, 2:07 pm

Try and name one Country that has a Capatilist System that has been successful (by that I mean the country as a whole has prospered, with sound development of its Institutions, such as the Legal system, Schools & Universities (that actually teach something relevant to today's World), Hospitals, Infrastructure and the like, along with providing their people with job opportunities, at a reasonable wage/salary.

No country either Capitalist or Socialist or a combination of the two has been successful

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by papafarang » October 3, 2019, 5:23 pm

Capitalism vs Socialism , only one winner, the politicians. even hardcore communist leaders live in luxury and plenty of capitalist countries have mass poverty. people go hungry in north korea, and people go hungry in America. what's the difference ? people in china get imprisoned for just having beliefs , people are imprisoned in America just for smoking a reefer. As you say DD no system works, both systems fail people. but leaders ,they just continue to live like kings.
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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Doodoo » October 3, 2019, 7:58 pm

Bravo Papa
Exactly right the only winners the Politicinas, Government workers etc

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by AlexO » October 4, 2019, 8:15 am

Doodoo wrote:
October 3, 2019, 2:07 pm
Try and name one Country that has a Capatilist System that has been successful (by that I mean the country as a whole has prospered, with sound development of its Institutions, such as the Legal system, Schools & Universities (that actually teach something relevant to today's World), Hospitals, Infrastructure and the like, along with providing their people with job opportunities, at a reasonable wage/salary.

No country either Capitalist or Socialist or a combination of the two has been successful
Jeez. In no specific order and please forgive me if I miss a few.
Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA, UK, All of Western Europe, quite a few States/Countries in Africa until their tribal leaders took over and stripped the resources for their "pension" funds. which all means a fair percentage of the worlds population. What does not work, Communism or Dictatorships. What absolutely does not work is the combination of Communism and Dictatorship as in Cuba, China in the 60's/70's, USSR from late 40's to the 90's and so on. To say that no Capitalist Nation has been successful is just nonsense.

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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Lone Star » October 4, 2019, 5:57 pm

AlexO wrote:
October 4, 2019, 8:15 am
Jeez. In no specific order and please forgive me if I miss a few.
Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA, UK, All of Western Europe, quite a few States/Countries in Africa until their tribal leaders took over and stripped the resources for their "pension" funds. which all means a fair percentage of the worlds population. What does not work, Communism or Dictatorships. What absolutely does not work is the combination of Communism and Dictatorship as in Cuba, China in the 60's/70's, USSR from late 40's to the 90's and so on. To say that no Capitalist Nation has been successful is just nonsense.
AlexO, you have hit that nail squarely with a sledgehammer. You are absolutely correct.

All one has to do is look at the World Fortune 500 List and then read about how those companies began. They are mostly in the Western World of Free Markets and Individual Liberty.

Henry Ford, Sam Walton, Daniel Ek, Martin Lorentzon, Kylie Jenner, Apple co-founders in a garage, young Microsoft developers, et al. The list of entrepreneurs, who developed sought-after products and services in free markets, is almost endless.

We rarely read of any similar creativity and achievement in totalitarian socialist societies. If they do happen, it is only because the oppressive big government permits it to happen and makes sure that the big government derives a direct benefit.

There is no doubt that free markets allow individuals to lift themselves from poverty. Millionaires come and go every year in free market societies through the freedom to invest various resources into all forms of potential -- human creativity, ideas and business.

There is no socialist government that creates anything or provides wealth and achievement to its people through their dictates and wealth confiscation. Socialist governments provide equal mediocrity.
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Re: Capitalism vs Socialism

Post by Doodoo » October 4, 2019, 7:39 pm

AlexO
One would have to define "Success" first

"Try and name one Country that has a Capatilist System that has been successful (by that I mean the country as a whole has prospered, with sound development of its Institutions, such as theLegal system, Schools & Universities (that actually teach something relevant to today's World), Hospitals, Infrastructure and th e like, along with providing their people with job opportunities, at a reasonable wage/salary.

No country either Capitalist or Socialist or a combination of the two has been successful"

ALEXO
Australia, Canada, New Zealand, USA, UK, All of Western Europe, quite a few States/Countries in Africa until their tribal leaders took over and stripped the resources for their "pension" funds. which all means a fair percentage of the worlds population. What does not work, Communism or Dictatorships.

A few countries I can comment on to help a long
Australia with its problems with Aboriginals , Crime, Drugs, WATER and lack of, Healthcare, Immigration etc

Canada CO2 pollution, Indian issues, wondering when someone is going to come for the Fresh Water we have (the biggest in the world), when will people understand what a two four is? and the Big Golden Fella that lives south of us, What's up with him?

USA with its problems Read the news and you decide or just read Udonmap and ask a few contributors I am sure they will tell you

UK IMMIGRATION, natural resources depleteing, NHS, Economy etc forgot Brexit

Western Europe where to start?

AS to answer about Socialist contributing
"Schools & Universities that actually teach something relevant to today's World
1) Russia was the first to send men to space
2) Nikolay Basov co inventor of the laser
3) Mikhail Kalashnikov AK47
4) Sergei Yudin cadaveric blood transfusion

Just a reminder from the stories on Udonmap is if Communism/Socialism is such a failure WHY are so many of the stories on UdonMap about China?????????????????? and their control of the Capatlistic system

Both systems succeed and BOTH systems fail

If Socialistic systems were failing then they why would they have scientists, teachers, researchers, astronauts,poor people, homeless, criminals, theives and politicians they should all be in the other Capatlist countries

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