A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

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Pakawala
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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by Pakawala » December 14, 2009, 12:55 am

Gee Tilo... I always thought this forum was the exception. :-k



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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by Laan Yaa Mo » December 14, 2009, 1:35 am

Yes, there are exceptions. and you are it!

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by jackspratt » December 14, 2009, 8:30 am

Let me help Paka - even though it comes from a conservative website, I was still able to keep my breakfast down :D
sbr120809dAPR20091209112131.jpg
sbr120809dAPR20091209112131.jpg (32.25 KiB) Viewed 936 times

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by Pakawala » December 14, 2009, 8:38 am

Thanks Jack, and well done. =D> I'll keep trying to figure it out.

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by Aardvark » December 14, 2009, 4:01 pm

jackspratt wrote:Let me help Paka - even though it comes from a conservative website, I was still able to keep my breakfast down :D
sbr120809dAPR20091209112131.jpg
I thought it was slightly more Oval than round :-k

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by TJ » December 14, 2009, 11:36 pm

Along with the recently discovered dubious practices of so-called AGW scientists and the lack of any scientific means of proving AGW theory, the carbon offset scheme, where a country (or company) can meet its emissions targets by paying others to reduce their emissions has been shown to be useless as it is shot through with scams. "Recent evidence reveals that offsets are vulnerable to fraud and actually increase costs."

The nature of the various carbon offset scams are described in the following article.
http://environment.ncpa.org/commentarie ... -salvation

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by BKKSTAN » December 15, 2009, 7:18 am

For those that think Mr.Gore is a humanitarian and those who doubt him(includes me),here is his latest per AP:

Gore: Polar ice may vanish in 5-7 years


By CHARLES J. HANLEY, AP Special Correspondent – 27 mins ago

COPENHAGEN – New computer modeling suggests the Arctic Ocean may be nearly ice-free in the summertime as early as 2014, Al Gore said Monday at the U.N. climate conference. This new projection, following several years of dramatic retreat by polar sea ice, suggests that the ice cap may nearly vanish in the summer much sooner than the year 2030, as was forecast by a U.S. government agency eight months ago.

One U.S. government scientist Monday questioned the new prediction as too severe, but other researchers previously have projected a quicker end than 2030 to the Arctic summer ice cap.

"It is hard to capture the astonishment that the experts in the science of ice felt when they saw this," said former U.S. Vice President Gore, who joined Scandinavian officials and scientists to brief journalists and delegates. It was Gore's first appearance at the two-week conference.

The group presented two new reports updating fast-moving developments in Antarctica, the autonomous Danish territory of Greenland, and the rest of the Arctic.

"The time for collective and immediate action on climate change is now," said Denmark's foreign minister, Per Stig Moeller.

But delegates from 192 nations were bogged down in disputes over key issues. This further dimmed hopes for immediate action to cut more deeply into global emissions of greenhouse gases.

Gore and Danish ice scientist Dorthe Dahl Jensen clicked through two slide shows for a standing-room-only crowd of hundreds in a side event at the Bella Center conference site.

One report, on the Greenland ice sheet, was issued by the Arctic Monitoring and Assessment Program, an expert group formed by eight Arctic governments, including the United States. The other, commissioned by Gore and Norway's government, was compiled by the Norwegian Polar Institute on the status of ice melt worldwide.



Average global temperatures have increased 0.74 degrees C (1.3 degrees F) in the past century, but the mercury has risen at least twice as quickly in the Arctic. Scientists say the makeup of the frozen north polar sea has shifted significantly in recent years as much of the thick multiyear ice has given way to thin seasonal ice.

In the summer of 2007, the Arctic ice cap dwindled to a record-low minimum extent of 4.3 million square kilometers (1.7 million square miles) in September. The melting in 2008 and 2009 was not as extensive, but still ranked as the second- and third-greatest decreases on record.

Last April, the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration predicted that Arctic summers could be almost ice-free within 30 years, not at the 21st century's end as earlier predicted.

Gore cited new scientific work at the U.S. Naval Postgraduate School, whose Arctic ice research is important for planning polar voyages by Navy submarines. The computer modeling there stresses the "volumetric," looking not just at the surface extent of ice but its thickness as well.

"Some of the models suggest that there is a 75 percent chance that the entire north polar ice cap during some of the summer months will be completely ice-free within the next five to seven years," Gore said. His office later said he meant nearly ice-free, because ice would be expected to survive in island channels and other locations.


Asked for comment, one U.S. government scientist questioned what he called this "aggressive" projection.

"It's possible but not likely," said Mark Serreze of the U.S. National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colorado. "We're sticking with 2030."

On the other hand, a leading NASA ice scientist, Jay Zwally, said last year that the Arctic could be essentially ice-free within "five to less than 10 years."

Meanwhile, what's happening to Greenland's titanic ice sheet "has really surprised us," said Jensen of the University of Copenhagen.

She cited one huge glacier in west Greenland, at Jakobshavn, that in recent years has doubled its rate of dumping ice into the sea. Between melted land ice and heat expansion of ocean waters, the sea-level rise has increased from 1.8 millimeters a year to 3.4 millimeters (.07 inch a year to .13 inch) in the past 10 years.

Jensen said the biggest ice sheets — Greenland and West Antarctica — were already contributing 1 millimeter (.04 inch) a year to those rising sea levels. She said this could double within the next decade.

"With global warming, we have woken giants," she said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091214/ap_ ... imate_gore

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by rick » December 15, 2009, 8:50 am

Ok, we have a lot of posters who doubt evidence if it is 'scientific'. Lets keep things simple.

1. Average temperatures at ground level are consistently rising. Depends which data you use, but lets say 0.4 - 0.7 centigrade.

2. Mount Kilimanjaro now, for the first time in recorded history, has no snow for part of the year.

3. MOST glaciers are rapidly receding. Some are already on the point of extinction.

4. Ask any Inuit if it is getting warmer. He can tell you.

5. Sea level is rising; some land is dissappearing into the sea in many countries (including USA).

6. Ranges of many species of plants and animals which are sensitive to temperature are changing.

I think those 6 points suggest, even to a non-scientist, it is getting warmer - Global warming.

Natural variability? Maybe - but nothing to prove it should be happening now. Any ideas (with evidence).

Carbon dioxide levels are steadily increasing by up to 1 or 2 parts per million a year; recorded over the last 150 years or so. Scientific evidense suggests that such levels have not been reached for 1,000's of years.

It is easy to prove that Carbon dioxide can cause higher temperatures when exposed to natural levels of light. Doesn't take much of a jump in reasoning to see that maybe it will affect the earth's atmosphere?

So, Global warming - fact. Man made global warming - hard to prove 100%, but plenty of evidence. Can anyone actually provide PROOF that man is not responsible?

I know that trying to stop Global warming is like trying to stop the Titanic from sinking; but Man never gives up easily (especially GW deniers!). While we still have a few stubbornly defending their right to driving Hummers and wanting copious energy at the lowest price, not much will happen. But can we keep on doing it? Do we have unlimited supplies of fossil fuel? The only question is how long can we go on for.

So, on grounds of Global warming, sustainablity, we have to change if humanity is to survive. Or maybe to many are just selfish and do not give a F**K about the future.

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by WBU ALUM » December 15, 2009, 10:38 am

So everything is okay now. Rick has spoken.

And if you don't believe Rick, you are selfish.

I understand it completely now. You have converted me. 8)

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by BKKSTAN » December 15, 2009, 10:45 am

If the Earth has had warming and cooling cycles in the past,how do we contribute this warming cycle to human cause and where is the indisputable scientific facts to say that everything we try as humans to counteract the cycle ,will have any effectual result in changing it.

Everyone has their own selfish agendas in life,including so called ''humanitarians'' and those in opposing camps!I think if their in any real proof involved in this whole debacle,it would be the historical record of man not being able to get past their own selfish agenda to come together as a real force to tackle Global problems!

the one area there is historical proof is mans ability to develop technical adaptations to evolve with the changes faced in the past!

It has always been a waste of time and energy to get people to individually volunteer to sacrifice for the benefit of the Whole.

Therefore ,IMO,those like Gore,have their selfish private agenda as they are well versed in the history of mankinds genuine humanitarism as a whole!

Look at what these people are really asking!

Developed countries with their people accustomed to comfort and gigantic economic opportunity and freedom of choice,must give up their ''spoiled lifestyle'' ,while less developed countries continue attempting to encroach their ''markets'' and superior position in the pecking order chain of POWER!!!

No chance in hell,what you things wars have been about? :lol: :lol:

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by Tigerick » December 27, 2009, 6:39 pm

As an oceanscientist with particular interest in the velocity of sound in water (function of temperature, salinity, density, pressure) I have seen the increase in the global sea temperatures and the recession of the polar ice.

As an intelligent person (I hope) then it is obvious that we are very likely producing more ingredients to heat this world. OK you ask the question as to whether all the global warming is man made - I say does it really matter if it is 20% man-made and 80% an earthly cycle or vice-versa. The important question is what effect will this have on our earth home. Next question can we or can we not do anything to help to calm or reduce the process of warming? Do we have the time to debate the issue or should we just take as many precautions as we can. As an analogy remember the tsunami - with the efficient replanting of many mangrove swamps the next wave will be dissipated more efficiently - simple solutions. By the way there are many ocean scientists that have been telling people to stop cutting mangroves for this very reason fro many years - did anyone listen.

Unfortunately the political will is most probably going to take away the edge and it will only be small organisations and individuals that will do anything until such time as we know that it is too late because 'we ripped out the mangroves before the wave hit'.

:roll:

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by jackspratt » December 27, 2009, 8:45 pm

This forum is a bit light on for people who know what they are talking about, so welcome Tiger.

Despite the fact that the overwhelming scientific consensus is that humans are contributing more than their fair share to global warming, and that by doing a little bit, can ameliorate the effects, the deniers continue to push their luddite views.

And never forget - there is no clear connection between smoking and lung cancer.

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by Pakawala » December 27, 2009, 10:27 pm

Poor example Jack. The person who continues to smoke is spending only his own money... he's not demanding that I/we pay for his habit.

Also, the "overwhelming scientific consensus" is that the earth has been cooling for the past 10 years!! But of course, the 'warm earth' pundits choose to not recognize that fact. [-X

Lastly, for both Tigerick and Jack, what possible difference will it make if neither India nor China will join the rest of the world in this battle? Their pollution contribution will continue and their money will remain in their pockets while the remainder of the world (the other 1/2 of the population) will be financially bled to death. Except of course, those 'poor' countries which will receive the financial aid. [-(

One more question, based on a statement I've heard, why don't we make the cows pay for their flatulence contribution? :-k

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by WBU ALUM » December 28, 2009, 11:57 am

jackspratt wrote:This forum is a bit light on for people who know what they are talking about, so welcome Tiger.

Despite the fact that the overwhelming scientific consensus is that humans are contributing more than their fair share to global warming, and that by doing a little bit, can ameliorate the effects, the deniers continue to push their luddite views.
Tiger, there are also quite a few posters (well, not so many anymore), who are extremely intolerant of the views of others and resort to personal attacks, so beware of the wolves in sheep's clothing.

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by Tigerick » December 29, 2009, 9:49 pm

WBU Allum

It seems to be a common issue on web forums, which is why I don't bother very often, but currently interested to find out more about Udon and also to see just what type of expats are associated with Udon. I will probably move there sometime maybe not full time but I have family there and expect to build a house later next year. I need to be closer to the ocean so I will continue to live further south.

There are some interesting characters already appearing that I would be interested to share a BBQ with, and the ones I choose are not necessarily the ones who mirror my opinions but are people that can present interesting stories, opinions and discussion - I like wolves but not in sheep's clothing.

Pakawala - did I suggest something about India and China - I think you confuse my questions for something they are not, and I love your quoted "overwhelming scientific consensus" could you please supply your references for that statement so I can do some follow up reading.

If anything I am re-enforcing Stan's comments and frankly I feel the whole thing will probably be left to nature to sort out, typical selfish, lethargic society ooops am I denigrating the human race, no just all of you others out there - nothing to do with me, not my problem ok, ok I'm out of here to go an make some more money.

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by Pakawala » December 30, 2009, 11:48 am

Tigerick, the quote "overwhelming scientific consensus" came from directly above my post... Jackspratt. I used it as a bit of sarcasm. ;)

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by WBU ALUM » December 30, 2009, 12:11 pm

Pakawala wrote:I used it as a bit of sarcasm. ;)
Which is about all it is worth now. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by jackspratt » December 30, 2009, 12:17 pm

"Overwhelming scientific consensus"

Jut a few references - google is your friend if you want more:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/f ... /5702/1686

http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 82,00.html

http://www.wunderground.com/education/928.asp

Paka my analogy re smoking had nothing to do with money - it was more about deniers, including those in the scientific community who had a financial interest in continuing to cloud the smoking causes lung cancer debate for many years.

Perhaps you could also reciprocate with credible references re your "earth is cooling" comment.

Rico I assume your observation about intolerance and personal attacks is a reference to you and Obama :D

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by ronan01 » December 30, 2009, 5:41 pm

Oh no!!!! Not the "Overwhelming scientific consensus" thing again. This tired old cliche is about as reliable as "peer review". Both these statements are grossly over-used by "true believers" when people question them and their alarmist views. The only "concensus" is from the snout in the trough scientists who have been riding the IPCC gravy train for far too long. I find it unusual that the "majority" of geologists - you know those scientists who have studied the earth and its structures for a long time - are not global warming believers. I think its pretty clear that Gore (and similar) have cynically used this topic for their own selfish purposes. The IPCC data (or at least some of it) is available of their website - it is very poor, and the models that use the data have not been audited or validated by anybody. Some "scientists" are more interested in being alarmist in order to secure the next round of "research" funding. The scientific comunity are not even close to agreeing on "global warming", let alone warming due to human activity. Carbon trading is a scam based on poor science.

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Re: A dispute of global warming from eastern Europe

Post by jackspratt » December 30, 2009, 6:11 pm

Yep - again :D

Just another "inconvenient truth" :roll:

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