Edward Snowden - Hero or Traitor? (POLL RE-OPENED)

[KB_Texas]

My thoughts on this are mixed...while I DO have concerns that the government is becoming more and more Big Brother, to the extent that they 'circumvent' the guarantees of the Constitution of the US, I also understand that it is important that we do our best to make it as hard as possible for the bad guys to do their nastiness.

I am thinking that indeed Mr Snowden was ALREADY primed to be a spy before he even applied for the job. When you take an oath, then personal honor demands you keep that oath, even if it is hard. To get the clearance he had, he indeed had to take an oath to protect the information he was presented with. As others have said, he had recourse to many other avenues that should have been explored before flying to China and spilling it all in the public media. To me, that makes him a liar, dishonorable and a traitor, but that is just MY opinion. His choice of countries to visit also says much about his motives I believe. I think that if we can (legally) get him back, he should be tried for the charges already laid against him. It now plays out that perhaps he should have never gotten said clearance, and something was amiss in that decision also.

I also think that we as a country need to have an open discussion of how many freedoms we are willing to give up in the name of security, and try to get some form of real balance in the programs that 'we are not told about'. THOSE are the scary ones, IMO. And by 'open discussion', I mean just that, not demagoguery and the us vs. them BS as usual in political discussions anymore.

We've already given up a load of freedoms that were taken for granted when I was a kid. If we do not soon have the discussion suggested above, I think it will never happen. People get used to the status quo, as the ones who remember something different die off.

Just my opinion...your opinion may vary.

KB

[Aardvark]

You could have given us a fourth option, "Idiot" comes to mind

[fatbob]

Lil Red, ya tink da US Gov can be trusted by da sound of it, I dont, dun to much bad sh-t for too long all over da world.

[thanuhak]

I think he did everyone a service by telling us what the government is up to these days.

Apparently, they've been up to a lot, peeping, poking, and collecting all our data.

As someone who worked for the NSA over 30 years ago, I would never have thought of betraying my oath - I don't think it would have ever crossed my mind, no matter what I'd seen or known.

Which is to say that I'm glad to know about what he exposed, while also knowing that he committed an illegal act, for which he should be punished.

The extent of the punishment depends on what all he ends up revealing and what damage that may cause. Like Assange, in the end, the damage will probably be far less than predicted by those calling for these chaps' heads.

I think we should resume this discussion when we know more - in a month or two perhaps.

[parrot]

If Cartwright leaked info about the Stuxnet attacks, he should pay the price for doing so.

Lonnie Franks reported his concerns to his congressman, who took appropriate action.

I might view Snowden in a different light had he parked himself on the steps of the Justice Dept and held a news conference conveying his concerns. He would probably have been arrested (shortly thereafter) and he'd have an opportunity to defend his actions. Sucking up a bunch of classified material on a thumb drive (some of which allegedly has nothing to do with American privacy concerns) and fleeing overseas, now in the hands of the Russians, he falls into my traitor column (although traitor may not be the technically correct term for what he's done thus far).
I do hope he's sleeping with his thumb drive inserted up his backside while in Russia. I'm sure Putin and gang would love to see what's on there.

Ellsberg at least made attempts to have a few Senators release the Pentagon Papers in public on the Senate floor. The Senators apparently refused.

Agree with the NSA program or not, it's been stamped by the Congress (on more than one occasion) and the courts, and thus, (at least to me), it's law. From what I've read, Snowden never took any action to try to elevate his concerns through the system.
The only positive thing I can say about his actions is that they've resulted in a dialogue, long overdue, about the security actions our government took post 9/11. He could have easily accomplished the same thing by standing on his two feet in the US and making his pitch.

[WBU ALUM]

Agree with the NSA program or not, it's been stamped by the Congress (on more than one occasion) and the courts, and thus, (at least to me), it's law.

And the law has limits.

[Quanteen]

The law means nothing. Snowden better keep an ear to the sky. He's pissed off the Drone Ranger.

[WBU ALUM]

The law means nothing. Snowden better keep an ear to the sky. He's pissed off the Drone Ranger.

True that.

[jackspratt]

The law means nothing. Snowden better keep an ear to the sky. He's pissed off the Drone Ranger.

Ah! Tex ..........you have such a way with words.

After your prolonged absence, fancy you popping up both here and on UT at the same time.

Have you recovered emotionally from the trauma of the wicked witch in Tesco yet?

10...9....8...7....

[mortiboy]

Lil Red, ya tink da US Gov can be trusted by da sound of it, I dont, dun to much bad sh-t for too long all over da world.[/quote] :lol:

[WBU ALUM]

Lil Red, ya tink da US Gov can be trusted by da sound of it, I dont, dun to much bad sh-t for too long all over da world.

dat's zackly whut we need in dis discussion. Some good ole plain talkin' language that all the fokes can unduhstan. Ahm glad you posted dis, coxo.

Here's one of dem attaboys fer you. =D>

[Laan Yaa Mo]

He did take a job under strict guidelines ,,, what he was doing or knew was going on was wrong ,,, should he have come out the closet and is he a traitor ?? .. the Yanks will obviously say yes ,, the Ruskies and ****** will say hes done nowt wrong and all others dont give a flying fig ....

America now trying to put trade pressure on countries he may go to like Equador ... and Venewella ... while the Russians just keep given America the finger ... interesting how this pans out after all was so love dovey at the recent G8 !!

***** has been compared in degree of offensiveness to terms such as black guy and kike.[20] As with other ethnic slurs, it is often used in conjuncture with violence and discrimination, which may amount to hate crimes.[21]
Chinese people considered the term offensive from the outset.[citation needed] Certain Asian-American community members still believe that ***** and other racial insults are not taken seriously enough by public officials.[citation needed] Kenneth Chiu has been used as an example of the seriousness of the slur, when he was found murdered with the word ***** scratched into his car.[22]
Similar to the controversial reappropriation of the word black guy, the word ***** has sometimes been used in a positive manner.[20] For example, Leehom Wang, a Taiwanese American musician, named his Asian hip-hop fusion genre chinked-out in order to neutralize the term. Eventually Wang hopes the term will become "cool".[23]
Several rappers of Chinese, Korean and Vietnamese descent, including rapper MC Jin, have collaborated on the song Still A ***** to criticize the use of the term.[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*****

[Khun Paul]

Having read most of the comments, I can see that there are some who seem amazed that their government has been spying on them, well not exactly spying but making sure that all is well in the land.
This has been going on for as long as I can remember, it is just now that people seem to get concerned. Why one asks what have you got to hide, your money ( ill gotten gains ), your political colour, your religion , or your seemed loss of privacy.
Let me assure that anyone who has a Twitter or Facebook account has lost his/her privacy as soon as you opened it, use the internet to buy stuff... loss of privacy. use Internet banking ...loss of privacy, register your mobile phone ... loss of privacy. pay taxes ..loss of privacy.
So stop moaning and accept it. in these days of electronic gadgets and gizmos, using them loses your privacy and yet you still complai about what your government does.
Wake up everyone, from the banks to the tax man, Businesses are all doing it, some even sell your info to others.
Life in the 21st century is monitored, looked at and even dissected, by so many bits and pieces , that it is irrelevant. don't worry just go along tending your garden and looking at the flowers. Nowt going to change and the silly little boy called Snowden has now outlived his usefulness, hopefully he will disappear along with his tawdry secrets.

[Quanteen]

... there are some who seem amazed that their government has been spying on them

Well, yes. Don't you think your phone calls should be private? Don't you think you deserve a right to privacy?

well not exactly spying but making sure that all is well in the land.

Ummm, what?

Perhaps the "amazement" is owing to the constant outpouring of equine excrement like this:

Memorandum for the Heads of Executive Departments and Agencies
SUBJECT: Transparency and Open Government
Government should be transparent. Transparency promotes accountability and provides information for citizens about what their Government is doing. Information maintained by the Federal Government is a national asset. My Administration will take appropriate action, consistent with law and policy, to disclose information rapidly in forms that the public can readily find and use. Executive departments and agencies should harness new technologies to put information about their operations and decisions online and readily available to the public. Executive departments and agencies should also solicit public feedback to identify information of greatest use to the public.
Published in the Federal Register.
BARACK OBAMA

And then there's this from Sep, 2011:

President Obama said last fall in a speech at the United Nations that he wanted governments to be transparent: “In all parts of the world, we see the promise of innovation to make government more open and accountable,” he told the U.N. General Assembly in September 2010.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2 ... rency.html

Yes I'm "amazed" this conniving liar is the president of the United States.

[WBU ALUM]

Let me assure that anyone who has a Twitter or Facebook account has lost his/her privacy as soon as you opened it, use the internet to buy stuff... loss of privacy. use Internet banking ...loss of privacy, register your mobile phone ... loss of privacy. pay taxes ..loss of privacy.
So stop moaning and accept it.

You don't have to assure anyone, KP. Twitter and Facebook are based on VOLUNTARY PARTICIPATION. Someone posts something, IT IS SEEN. DUH! That is not the same as a private phone call, private email, credit card transaction, bank transaction, etc.

You're not from America. You were born and raised in the ascendency of the collective in Europe. The one thing that all Europeans feared is communism -- and then they bought into the softer version of it.

Regardless of all the "electronic gadgets and gizmos," Americans expect their government to follow the Constitution and honor the Bill of Rights. The People are the government in the United States, and at some point along the way, enough of them bought into the same gobbledy gook as what the Europeans have, and the People lost control.

from the banks to the tax man, Businesses are all doing it, some even sell your info to others.

It may be okay in your mind and your part of the world, but much of that is ILLEGAL in the United States of America. I know some are dancing with glee at the prospect of collapse -- completely or into socialism -- but it isn't going to happen quietly.

[KHONDAHM]

I think all the hoopla is ridiculous. I mean, what person in there right mind didn't already suspect what he revealed? He made it fact. That's all. Most of what he confirmed as fact has been widely circulated heretofore on the plethora of "conspiracy" sites, books, and articles. Nothing about what he has revealed thus far is anything I had not ALREADY known about as fact (see my posts in the Facebook thread) through reading tech articles, colleagues, and various public sources for YEARS!

It's all silly.

The thing I question is the timing. This stuff is not new and I suspect just another politically motivated effort to make Obama (the Osama killer) appear weak on national security. Just as the Inspector General now appears to have been a Republican cohort regarding the IRS "scandal", framing this "leak" about something everyone knew just HAD to exist anyway is yet another dart thrown at his legacy.

It's silly.

[Khun Paul]

WBU follow the Constitution , that course has cost thousands of Americans their lives. With their inalienable right to bear arms. Don't tell me about Americans god given right to expect their Govt to follow the Constitution, it is the only thing that Americans do, Cry about their constitutional rights.
Sure membership of Computorised clubs aka facebook /Twitter is voluntary , I am not that stupid, but following on from your voluntary membership goes a massive amount of privacy issues which if i remember rightly is against the American Constitution as well.
But then following on from 9/11 and other acts deemed to be terrorism related on American soil, either your countrymen are happy to targeted due to the populations hampering the Govts ability to thwart these attacks or their not. IN the Uk there is NO soft Communism as you so politely say but there is iin the UK and elsewhere in Eurpope an acceptance that IF you wish to remain safe then a certain amount of snooping must be done as unlike 50 years ago when most p[eople knew their neighbours and life was considerably slower, these days that is NBOT the case. With the upsurge of not very nice people being tainted by religious ramblings of many re;ligions and even by the emerging countries as well spawnin g nuts in gay abandon, sorry but any Govt that ensures my safety has my vote, maybe those Americans who don't like what their Govt is doing should go to live in countries where your rights are not protected under a piece of paper written some 200 odd years ago and complain there. Shooting is their answer in many cases, stop complaining and get on with life, this is the 21st century , you WBU embrace it fully as you use the erlectronic age to spout your complaints, as do I.

[fatbob]

Khun Paul, feel free to accept what ever big brother and governments tell you, you can think they are acting in your best interests, I do not want my government tapping my phones, I believe in freedom of speech. Look at Israels secret service, sending out assassination squads all over the world bumping people off, sorry Paul, when bad sh-t is going on then people must speak out not lay down and accept what is going on around them, that is lame. America got invaded in 9/11, and if your an Iraq citizen you will firmly believe you were invaded in 91 or 92 and again later by America, if your from Syria that is going to have a smell to it, who is funding the liberation fighters, outsiders not locals, and so it go's on, where doe's it all end up, that's anyone's guess, people should always have the freedom to speak out if they are concerned about liberty and freedom. In Australia under Howard after 9/11 a lot of privacy laws were changed and not all good.

[LilRed]

Right on, thanohak:

I think we should resume this discussion when we know more...

The facts are not completely known yet, TO US. Bring him back and try him in court, not the press or Congress.

If he's innocent, he goes free. If not, Colo. and Joliet are too good for him... Doncha think he'd make the most popular benny boy in Parchman?...


WBU:

You n da Nuge share a whole lotta common ground.


BR

[Khun Paul]

Sorry America INVADED IN September , now known as 9/11, i think you are somewhat mistaken, but then England got invaded in 1066 since then nothing, but we have had terriost bombs, bloody murders and even a few wars since then invaded never, the nearesrt America came to that was Pearl harbour, but they didn't stay just popped over to make a point.
I do not nor will I ever just meekly obey or allow my Govt to do what I consider to be wrong regarding my personal freedoms, but I do look at the overall view not a narrow one which it would appear many on this forum do.
if life was simple I would be bloody angry, but it is not so therefore compromises MUST be made or life as I know would not continue, with freedom comes great responsibility, we are not alone on this planet and I am part of the other 7 billion who wish to survive without my freedoms being strangled, but that needs flexibility and as I am neither wealthy enough nor powerful enough to ensure my freedoms every day, I must at some stage trust an organisation or similar ( govt maybe ) to ensure my freedoms are just that.
To ensure peace we must prepare for a war, we ARE at war with those who wish to shackle us to outdated or even draconian rules and ways of life supposedly emnating from a book , which book depends on which religion you support. Most laws in most countries are based on some form of religious observance in one way or another, from the fanatics to the all encompassing live and let live sects.
So although in substance I agree that snooping is an invasion of my personal privacy and peace of mind, to have that privacy or even peace of mind then generally, as I am not a law-breaker nor a person who wishes to do ill to anyone or country, the snooping is the price I must pay to allow me to live then so be it.I never said I like it , but I ACCEPT IT as part of continuing to live reasonably freely in a manner I like without some idiot telling me how to live.