Religion and the cults

[Jello]

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
..Thomas Jefferson

Wow Khun Paul…answers to all that on a postage stamp! I think you know me better than that, but I will try to keep my response as succinct as possible. Firstly, the comment at the bottom of my messages seems to pretty much sum up the human condition…minds filled with falsehoods and errors that deflect the arrows of real truth that try to find their way into our hearts. It’s “catchy”, not spiritually offensive, so appropriate for the forum and hopefully will cause someone to pause and think before speaking.

A very good quote and I think your interpretation of it is sound, however I would add in there to
first listen and think before speaking. Most people are to busy thinking about how they will respond
to defend their ego or belief rather than truly listening.

My interpretation of this quote is to approach things with a open mind and not let your personal
biases and dogma get it the way of the truth.

Jefferson had some interesting views on Christianity and the Bible.

He loved the teachings of Jesus and wrote the book The LIFE AND MORALS OF JESUS OF NAZARETH Extracted
Textually from the Gospels. However, Jefferson considered much of the New Testament of the Bible to be
false. He described these as "so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture" He described the "roguery of
others of His disciples", and called them a "band of dupes and impostors" describing Paul as the "first
corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus", and wrote of "palpable interpolations and falsifications". He also
described the Book of Revelation to be "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of
explanation than the incoherence's of our own nightly dreams".

Jefferson was convinced that the message Jesus taught was corrupted by later writers and clerics.
He did not take the Bible in it's entirety to be the word of God:
The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute inquiry into it:
and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have
a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is
internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric
of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
Letter to John Adams, on Christian scriptures (24 January 1814)

He did not believe that Religion was necessary to be a virtuous person:
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of
the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
Letter to Thomas Law (13 June 1814)

He did not believe that Christianity was the only path to heaven:
He who steadily observes the moral precepts in which all religions concur, will never be questioned at the gates of
heaven as to the dogmas in which they all differ.
Letter to William Canby (18 September 1813)

[rjj04]

Jello - good post. "...parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man"

KD - I like playing the devil's advocate.

semperfiguy - apologizes for thinking you misquoted Jefferson. I was "ignorant" about your quote, AND made an "error"...
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. - Jefferson" To me, this quote is perfect for "believers" of all stripe. With nearly zero supporting evidence, and a massive amount of contrary evidence, the only rational answer is to remain agnostic about any specific god. To "know" your god wants you to kill abortion doctors, or keep condoms away from people, or blow-up people in a mosque is the kind of "knowing" that we don't need.

[rods1201]

Religion is nothing more than a money making racket. THERE IS NO GOD. GET OVER IT AND GET A LIFE.

[semperfiguy]

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
..Thomas Jefferson

Wow Khun Paul…answers to all that on a postage stamp! I think you know me better than that, but I will try to keep my response as succinct as possible. Firstly, the comment at the bottom of my messages seems to pretty much sum up the human condition…minds filled with falsehoods and errors that deflect the arrows of real truth that try to find their way into our hearts. It’s “catchy”, not spiritually offensive, so appropriate for the forum and hopefully will cause someone to pause and think before speaking.

A very good quote and I think your interpretation of it is sound, however I would add in there to
first listen and think before speaking. Most people are to busy thinking about how they will respond
to defend their ego or belief rather than truly listening.

My interpretation of this quote is to approach things with a open mind and not let your personal
biases and dogma get it the way of the truth.

Jefferson had some interesting views on Christianity and the Bible.

He loved the teachings of Jesus and wrote the book The LIFE AND MORALS OF JESUS OF NAZARETH Extracted
Textually from the Gospels. However, Jefferson considered much of the New Testament of the Bible to be
false. He described these as "so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture" He described the "roguery of
others of His disciples", and called them a "band of dupes and impostors" describing Paul as the "first
corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus", and wrote of "palpable interpolations and falsifications". He also
described the Book of Revelation to be "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of
explanation than the incoherence's of our own nightly dreams".

Jefferson was convinced that the message Jesus taught was corrupted by later writers and clerics.
He did not take the Bible in it's entirety to be the word of God:
The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute inquiry into it:
and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have
a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is
internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric
of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
Letter to John Adams, on Christian scriptures (24 January 1814)

He did not believe that Religion was necessary to be a virtuous person:
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of
the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
Letter to Thomas Law (13 June 1814)

He did not believe that Christianity was the only path to heaven:
He who steadily observes the moral precepts in which all religions concur, will never be questioned at the gates of
heaven as to the dogmas in which they all differ.
Letter to William Canby (18 September 1813)

I promised that I wasn't going to post again on this topic, but Khun Paul invited me back to respond to comments on his last post, and I have done so. But I am back...but only briefly for a final comment. May I respectfully request all to read and "listen" to the Scripture below.

1John 5 says:

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Thomas Jefferson was obviously a good and moral man and a true patriot to the United States, but based upon the evidence of his writings he was just another man who is void of God's Spirit setting himself up as a witness against the truth of God's Word. I would no more accept his witness of God and His Word than I would Hitler or Stalin! Jesus said in Matthew 12:25: Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation ; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. The Holy Spirit dwelling within a man's heart is never at odds with what God has said in His Word.

Jesus said in John 8:26: "For I say only what I have heard from the One who sent me, and He is true." Jesus was not a man that came with his own message and rambled on about his various opinions about religion. Every word that came out of His mouth was given to Him by God the Father. Just as a son will naturally emulate everything that his father says and does, so did Jesus. But He was able to take it to the level of perfection because He is one with the Father and co-equal in deity.

I have posted several times now on this topic and my writings have been strictly supported by Scripture. After having read the New Testament over 300 times (before I quit keeping score) and the Old Testament numerous times over the past 23 years, I can attest to the fact that the Word of God is firmly planted in my spirit and I have put on the mind of Christ. Therefore, the message that I preach is none other than the message that I have received from my Father through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Thailand is a Kingdom with subjects and a individual. an individual expects that the inhabitants of his kingdom shall be "subject" to his rule, and those that defy him will be punished. Case in point: Joe Gordon who is up on charges punishable by up to 15 years for insulting Thailand's individual. Should we expect any less from the Kingdom of Heaven with its individual of individual and Lord of Lords? And yet, God demands nothing! He is a individual that extends His hand of perfect love and says whosoever will may come into My Kingdom. Because of sin every man deserves to be punished, but because of My grace I offer you everything that you don't deserve as a free gift...I offer you eternal life!

May God Bless You!

[Astana]

The bible as with many other religious faiths is meant to be taken metaphorically. Science can never really disprove any religions. Religion is based on faith. Faith requires no evidence.

I'm not religious in anyway, this is just how I see it.

[LoveDaBlues]

The bible isn't even a good work of fiction:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/by_name.html

[semperfiguy]

He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
..Thomas Jefferson

Wow Khun Paul…answers to all that on a postage stamp! I think you know me better than that, but I will try to keep my response as succinct as possible. Firstly, the comment at the bottom of my messages seems to pretty much sum up the human condition…minds filled with falsehoods and errors that deflect the arrows of real truth that try to find their way into our hearts. It’s “catchy”, not spiritually offensive, so appropriate for the forum and hopefully will cause someone to pause and think before speaking.

A very good quote and I think your interpretation of it is sound, however I would add in there to
first listen and think before speaking. Most people are to busy thinking about how they will respond
to defend their ego or belief rather than truly listening.

My interpretation of this quote is to approach things with a open mind and not let your personal
biases and dogma get it the way of the truth.

Jefferson had some interesting views on Christianity and the Bible.

He loved the teachings of Jesus and wrote the book The LIFE AND MORALS OF JESUS OF NAZARETH Extracted
Textually from the Gospels. However, Jefferson considered much of the New Testament of the Bible to be
false. He described these as "so much untruth, charlatanism and imposture" He described the "roguery of
others of His disciples", and called them a "band of dupes and impostors" describing Paul as the "first
corrupter of the doctrines of Jesus", and wrote of "palpable interpolations and falsifications". He also
described the Book of Revelation to be "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of
explanation than the incoherence's of our own nightly dreams".

Jefferson was convinced that the message Jesus taught was corrupted by later writers and clerics.
He did not take the Bible in it's entirety to be the word of God:
The whole history of these books is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute inquiry into it:
and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have
a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is
internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric
of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
Letter to John Adams, on Christian scriptures (24 January 1814)

He did not believe that Religion was necessary to be a virtuous person:
If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of
the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.
Letter to Thomas Law (13 June 1814)

He did not believe that Christianity was the only path to heaven:
He who steadily observes the moral precepts in which all religions concur, will never be questioned at the gates of
heaven as to the dogmas in which they all differ.
Letter to William Canby (18 September 1813)

RE-EDITED PREVIOUS POST

I promised that I wasn't going to post again on this topic, but Khun Paul invited me back to respond to comments on his last post, and I have done so. But I am back...but only briefly for a final comment. May I respectfully request all to read and "listen" to the Scripture below.

1John 5 says:

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Thomas Jefferson was obviously a good and moral man and a true patriot to the United States, but based upon the evidence of his writings he was just another man who is void of God's Spirit setting himself up as a witness against the truth of God's Word. I would no more accept his witness of God and His Word than I would Hitler or Stalin! Jesus said in Matthew 12:25: Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation ; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand. The Holy Spirit dwelling within a man's heart is never at odds with what God has said in His Word.

Jesus said in John 8:26: "For I say only what I have heard from the One who sent me, and He is true." Jesus was not a man that came with his own message and rambled on about his various opinions about religion. Every word that came out of His mouth was given to Him by God the Father. Just as a son will naturally emulate everything that his father says and does, so did Jesus. But He was able to take it to the level of perfection because He is one with the Father and co-equal in deity.

I have posted several times now on this topic and my writings have been strictly supported by Scripture. After having read the New Testament over 300 times (before I quit keeping score) and the Old Testament numerous times over the past 23 years, I can attest to the fact that the Word of God is firmly planted in my spirit and I have put on the mind of Christ. Therefore, the message that I preach is none other than the message that I have received from my Father through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Thailand is a Kingdom with subjects and a individual. an individual expects that the inhabitants of his kingdom shall be "subject" to his rule, and those that defy him will be punished. Case in point: Joe Gordon who is up on charges punishable by up to 15 years for insulting Thailand's individual. Should we expect any less from the Kingdom of Heaven with its individual of kings and Lord of lords? And yet, God demands nothing! He is a individual that extends His hand of perfect love and says whosoever will may come into My Kingdom. Because of sin every man deserves to be punished, but because of My grace I offer you everything that you don't deserve as a free gift...I offer you eternal life!

May God Bless You!

[JR]

Udonmap is hardly a forum for religious preaching telling people what to think and do. That is performed enough by the red shirts.

[Frankie 1]

I have to agree with Khun Paul. The bible was constructed by the Romans in the fourth century, and contain a limited selection of Christian texts. Some texts were included (which the rulers of that time agreed with) and some texts were not included (texts that didn't fit with the way these people wanted to rule Europe). One of the texts that was not included in the Bible but was recognised as an original (or not less origional from the other texts) was the gospel of Thomas.

If you look at several religions in the world, you can see that most of them refer to the same God (Yaweh, Jehova, Allah, God = all different names for the same). There are a lot of scriptures that refer to God, all of them state that there is only one God. The Bible, the Torah and the Koran refer to the same God. Why would one reference be better than the other? Most people have read only one of these books and argue against one of the other books without even having read that other book.

Then there is the old Hindu religion. The old Veda texts as well as the Baghavad Gita (part of the story of Krishna) also refer to the one God.

If you were to take away the cultural aspects and cultural and local social rules, the basic primary message of all of these books is the same. The same basic Truth can be found in all of them. The thing is however, if you look for differences or if you look for similarities. When you start reading these books, are you only reading for key items to confirm presumptions, or are you looking for a basic universal Truth?

[Jello]

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

This Map of World Religions shows that religious faith is indigenous to certain regions of the world,
which makes it appear that religious belief is more closely related to the culture one is brought up
in rather than any inherent truth within a specific religion. Children learn from the people that surround
them and they tend to emulate the behavior that is acceptable within that society.

What does this say about the validity of religion? I think it shows that religion is more likely to be manmade
rather than divinely inspired.

[Jello]

The bible as with many other religious faiths is meant to be taken metaphorically. Science can never really disprove any religions. Religion is based on faith. Faith requires no evidence.

I'm not religious in anyway, this is just how I see it.

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
-- Mark Twain

Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof.
Khalil Gibran

Faith is a passionate intuition.
William Wordsworth

Faith and doubt both are needed - not as antagonists, but working side by side to take us around the unknown curve.
Lillian Smith
[-o<

[Jello]

Long post SFG! So I won't quote the whole post.
You touch on christian mysticism. You said you have "put on the mind of Christ" and receive messages
from the Holy Spirit.
The mind of Christ is given to believers through the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians verses 10-12).
Meaning you have been given the gift of being able to thing and do deeds as Jesus would have. The Bible
says the Holy Spirit is able to speak to you by voice(Isaiah 6:8; Acts 8:29; Revelation 1:10),
by visions(Numbers 12:6; Ezekiel 11:24), by dreams(Numbers 12:6; Daniel 7:1) and by secret impulse
(Judges 13:25; 2 Peter 1:21).
In what way does the Holy Spirit manifest himself to you?

[Khun Paul]

Constant quotes relating to the bible as just as good as quotes from emminent writers and thinkers. Qoting something does not make one read it just another way of saying read this and you will understand . Why ?
Any belief is what you personally are happy with, some believe the bible , some believe the the other religions texts, some believe that we are here as part of universes life cycle and we will wander off to another plane or whatever.
believe what you want but please stop trying to shove it down our throats . I am old enough to say ' Up yours@ but in reality I say if your happy ...good, please don't tell me how to be happy ...enjoy life you are a child of the universe. Embrace it , stop looking for answers enjoy life. Don't forget 40 is not old if you are a tree. A flower nevers clothes itself but alwayts looks pretty. Why is it we think the Moon follows the Sun and not the other way around. Why is water wet? these and other questions we can never answer , so why in hell do we bother about who, what , why about our existence.........Live it, Enjoy it, because we all lknow we are going to shuffle off this mortal coil one day, thats a fact folks !

[Astana]

The bible as with many other religious faiths is meant to be taken metaphorically. Science can never really disprove any religions. Religion is based on faith. Faith requires no evidence.

I'm not religious in anyway, this is just how I see it.

"Faith is believing what you know ain't so."
-- Mark Twain

Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof.
Khalil Gibran

Faith is a passionate intuition.
William Wordsworth

Faith and doubt both are needed - not as antagonists, but working side by side to take us around the unknown curve.
Lillian Smith
[-o<

Metaphorically well put!

[thalenoi]

Roman-Catholic dogma's haven been ingurgitaded to me age 6 to 15 in à similar way The French ingurgitate Food into gooses for the benefit of eating goose liver, not for the benefit of the goose.
That made me throw-up a lot.
Just thinking of all the religious cleansing, as opposed to falsely claimed ethnic cleansing, remember Serbia,Kosovo and Herzegovina?
No monotheism for me, convinced religion is despicable and man made.

[rjj04]

There seems to be a supposition that there are other ways to knowledge than just using evidence and reason. This is called a "gut feeling", or something "in my heart." If this OTHER way of KNOWING is so good, then why is it not used more often? Why is it that is seems to have a lousy track record of success. When you cross the street in Udon, do you close your eyes and cover your ears and wait for a "gut feeling" to cross? How successful would that practice be do you think? So, my question is, if this OTHER WAY OF KNOWING doesn't work in all other aspects of life, why should it work when it comes to WOO WOO such as religion, or fortune telling, or whatever? This is all just different parts of the brain arguing with itself. As with love, when the WOO WOO side wins out over reason, watch out That was my highly technical take on it Here is a fascinating short article on the divided mind from somebody who actually knows what he is talking about...

http://seedmagazine.com/content/article ... ious_soul/

This article is interesting as well, in that neurologists found that "believers" tend to not use a certain portion of the brain as much as non-believers. This portion of the brain "helps modify behavior by signaling when attention and control are needed, usually as a result of some anxiety-producing event like making a mistake." As the article says though...

"Obviously, anxiety can be negative because if you have too much, you're paralyzed with fear," he says. "However, it also serves a very useful function in that it alerts us when we're making mistakes. If you don't experience anxiety when you make an error, what impetus do you have to change or improve your behaviour so you don't make the same mistakes again and again?"

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 160400.htm

Perhaps these are some of the reasons why believers and people like myself seem to be always talking at odds with each other.

[AroyFarang]

Given that there are so many things that cant be explained by science, including our existence, then wouldn't it make sense that there is more going on here? If religion explains this for some people and gives them comfort then it has to be a good thing, no?

Also regarding war and wars in the name of religion, this is an awful thing however given the nature of man, wouldn't we just find something else to fight about if religion wasn't a factor?

[semperfiguy]

Long post SFG! So I won't quote the whole post.
You touch on christian mysticism. You said you have "put on the mind of Christ" and receive messages
from the Holy Spirit.
The mind of Christ is given to believers through the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians verses 10-12).
Meaning you have been given the gift of being able to thing and do deeds as Jesus would have. The Bible
says the Holy Spirit is able to speak to you by voice(Isaiah 6:8; Acts 8:29; Revelation 1:10),
by visions(Numbers 12:6; Ezekiel 11:24), by dreams(Numbers 12:6; Daniel 7:1) and by secret impulse
(Judges 13:25; 2 Peter 1:21).
In what way does the Holy Spirit manifest himself to you?

Hello Jello! I appreciate your comments and questions. I suppose it does sound very mystic to a nonbeliever, but what I have said is all scripturally sound. In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit dwelt amongst men and would come upon and leave a person at will. In the New Testament He dwells within believers and will never leave them nor forsake them. Please read the following verses and see that they are consequential to my closing point below.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (referencing Jesus)

Philippians 2:5 KJV
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Romans 12:2 KJV
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 John 2:27
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true -- it is not a lie. So continue in what he has taught you, and continue to live in Christ.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do

Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:


When a believer reads the Word of God he is effectively storing those words in his heart (inner man) and has put on the mind of Christ. Jesus Christ is the Word and what is written therein is the expressed image of His character and nature. You’ve heard it said that whatever you put into a child’s mind, that is what is going to come out! It works somewhat the same in this instance, only the Word is alive and the Holy Spirit is supernaturally able to allow you to recall Scripture and apply specific verses which represent principals and precepts to a particular decision or circumstance with which you are confronted. For example...when I read your email this morning, the Holy Spirit started searching the Scriptures within my heart and they were flying out so fast that I couldn’t write them down quickly enough. In doing so He has made the application to an answer to your question.

The best analogy of how this works is to consider all the information that has been placed on the internet. I can now type a question into the Google search engine such as “how much water is in the human body” and I will get 72,700,000 results. The human mind and memory is incapable of doing such a thing, neither is it able to filter through the entire Word of God within a matter of minutes and assimilate just the right verses that form a principle that addresses a particular issue. Only the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling within the believer can do that. He doesn’t speak the Scriptures to me nor does He have a conversation with me…He only brings to mind Scripture that I can use to solve a problem, and it can be instantaneous.

The Bible exhorts believers to study the Scriptures line upon line and precept upon precept. That’s why you will see some Bibles with cross references to related verses noted on the pages. Bible scholars, by the work of the Holy Spirit, have made those connections down through the ages long before computers came on the scene, and even a computer can only recognize related words or phrases but cannot recognize a number of verses that when combined form a spiritual principle. Personally I don’t use a reference bible because I prefer to have the Holy Spirit run the references for me. That same power is available to each and every believer. So, no mysticism here…just the supernatural operation of God.

[rjj04]

Given that there are so many things that cant be explained by science, including our existence, then wouldn't it make sense that there is more going on here? If religion explains this for some people and gives them comfort then it has to be a good thing, no?

Also regarding war and wars in the name of religion, this is an awful thing however given the nature of man, wouldn't we just find something else to fight about if religion wasn't a factor?

Science progresses. Science may never explain everything, but religious explanations are not a great substitute.
If by "our existence" you mean homo sapien? Obviously evolution explains that. If you mean life itself, science is working on that. There is the whole field of abiogenesis. Give science time, don't jump to conclusions. Especially grasping at religion to explain the natural world... and our existence. It also isn't a matter of, if science can not explain something 10,000 years from now, therefore a certain religion is true. That is a false dilemma. Assuming we don't destroy ourselves - a bad assumption IMO - science will make matters more clear in generations to come. Why can't we just say we are ignorant about some things, and live with it whilst we try to correct that ignorance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

As far as religion giving "comfort" to some, that is fine. It is just the excessive baggage that comes with religion that seems to never go away. There are other ways to find comfort.

"Something else to fight about?" Yes, there is always something else to fight about. To me it is the absolute certainty in the minds of believers that is the problem. I am talking about all beliefs here. Doubt is usually a good braking force for extremism. When religion makes people feel 100% certain, they are more willing to do almost anything. Net-net, if you add up the pros and cons of religion, I think we are better off without religion. The churches and mosques and wats ought to be converted into teaching other things such as critical thinking skills, humanism, and secular ethics rather than religious dogma. Given enough time and effort we can stop appealing to religion for moral leadership. The lazy way is to turn to some holy book rather than work at it. Just my two bits

[semperfiguy]

Long post SFG! So I won't quote the whole post.
You touch on christian mysticism. You said you have "put on the mind of Christ" and receive messages
from the Holy Spirit.
The mind of Christ is given to believers through the Spirit of God (1 Corinthians verses 10-12).
Meaning you have been given the gift of being able to thing and do deeds as Jesus would have. The Bible
says the Holy Spirit is able to speak to you by voice(Isaiah 6:8; Acts 8:29; Revelation 1:10),
by visions(Numbers 12:6; Ezekiel 11:24), by dreams(Numbers 12:6; Daniel 7:1) and by secret impulse
(Judges 13:25; 2 Peter 1:21).
In what way does the Holy Spirit manifest himself to you?

Hello Jello! I appreciate your comments and questions. I suppose it does sound very mystic to a nonbeliever, but what I have said is all scripturally sound. In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit dwelt amongst men and would come upon and leave a person at will. In the New Testament He dwells within believers and will never leave them nor forsake them. Please read the following verses and see that they are consequential to my closing point below.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (referencing Jesus)

Philippians 2:5 KJV
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Romans 12:2 KJV
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 John 2:27
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you all things, and what he teaches is true -- it is not a lie. So continue in what he has taught you, and continue to live in Christ.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do

Isaiah 28:10
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:


When a believer reads the Word of God he is effectively storing those words in his heart (inner man) and has put on the mind of Christ. Jesus Christ is the Word and what is written therein is the expressed image of His character and nature. You’ve heard it said that whatever you put into a child’s mind, that is what is going to come out! It works somewhat the same in this instance, only the Word is alive and the Holy Spirit is supernaturally able to allow you to recall Scripture and apply specific verses which represent principals and precepts to a particular decision or circumstance with which you are confronted. For example...when I read your email this morning, the Holy Spirit started searching the Scriptures within my heart and they were flying out so fast that I couldn’t write them down quickly enough. In doing so He has made the application to an answer to your question.

The best analogy of how this works is to consider all the information that has been placed on the internet. I can now type a question into the Google search engine such as “how much water is in the human body” and I will get 72,700,000 results. The human mind and memory is incapable of doing such a thing, neither is it able to filter through the entire Word of God within a matter of minutes and assimilate just the right verses that form a principle that addresses a particular issue. Only the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling within the believer can do that. He doesn’t speak the Scriptures to me nor does He have a conversation with me…He only brings to mind Scripture that I can use to solve a problem, and it can be instantaneous.

The Bible exhorts believers to study the Scriptures line upon line and precept upon precept. That’s why you will see some Bibles with cross references to related verses noted on the pages. Bible scholars, by the work of the Holy Spirit, have made those connections down through the ages long before computers came on the scene, and even a computer can only recognize related words or phrases but cannot recognize a number of verses that when combined form a spiritual principle. Personally I don’t use a reference bible because I prefer to have the Holy Spirit run the references for me. That same power is available to each and every believer. So, no mysticism here…just the supernatural operation of God.