America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

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Lone Star
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 12, 2019, 7:35 am

.

Well, I coulda told ya so.

With all the renewed calls for banning guns -- specifically, the ominously named "assault rifle" -- the FBI produces some stats that blows up the Left's narrative about guns -- AGAIN.

Just in 2017, the FBI crime statistics show that more people were killed with hammers and clubs than were killed with long guns or rifles of ANY kind by a tally of 467 to 403. The FBI defines a rifle as bolt-action, pump action, single shot, semi-automatic and the ominously named "assault rifle."

Only a very small percentage of those rifle homicides were committed with the ominously named "assault rifle." That means that the gap between hammers and assault rifles is even greater than that of all rifles.

It should also be noted that the same FBI crime stats show that over 1,500 people were killed with knives or what is described as "cutting instruments." 400% more killed with knives than with rifles.

What do you call it when the statistics -- the facts -- the truth -- doesn't match what is being claimed? It's just a question.

Guns and knives and hammers don't kill people. Evil people kill people.


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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Doodoo » August 12, 2019, 8:33 am

First off please tell us what is exactly "being claimed"?
"What do you call it when the statistics -- the facts -- the truth -- doesn't match what is being claimed? It's just a question." You start off by claiming a renewed call to ban guns and then jump into "assault rifle" a specific So please relay to us the Claim you have.

The CDC’s Wonder database shows that in 2017, 39,773 people in the US lost their lives at the point of a gun, marking the onward march of firearm fatalities in a country renowned for its lax approach to gun controls. When adjusted for age fluctuations, that represents a total of 12 deaths per 100,000 people – up from 10.1 in 2010 and the highest rate since 1996.

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by papafarang » August 12, 2019, 8:47 am

so how many killed with swiss army knives and how many killed with machetes ? picking just one type of gun and comparing with 100 types of knives/swords/machetes/blades is comical at best. So best compare how many killed with samurai swords against assault rifles. or how about mass murders with knives , got a number on those. Your argument just means teachers should be armed with knives I guess then
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by AlexO » August 12, 2019, 9:31 am

Lone Star wrote:
April 2, 2019, 3:43 pm
.

‘Assault Weapons’ and Magazine Bans Do Not Lower Homicide Rates

Source: Boston University School of Public Health

Michael Spiegel of Boston University and gun control advocate David Hemenway of Harvard University teamed up to study the effect of bans on “high-capacity” magazines and “assault weapons”.

A simple summary of their findings indicate that such bans would not lower homicide rates.

Named "The Impact of State Firearm Laws on Homicide and Suicide Deaths in the USA, 1991–2016: a Panel Study."

The study isolated four states and 10 different types of gun control. They measured the effectiveness of the laws in stemming homicide rates. Their research indicates that “high-capacity” magazine and “assault weapons” bans do not lower homicide rates.

Michael Spiegel:
Although I completely understand the desire to ban assault weapons, I just don’t see empirical evidence that such bans have any substantial impact on homicide rates. These bans are most often based on characteristics of guns that are not directly tied to their lethality.

Laws regulating the sale of assault weapons are unlikely to have a large impact on homicide rates, because these weapons are used in only a very small proportion of homicides. The vast majority of firearm homicides in the United States are committed with handguns.
The study also found that:
changes in household gun ownership were not found to be significantly associated with homicide or suicide rates.
Another LIB Myth busted. According to this study, a gun in the house does NOT put the homeowner at greater risk.
LS
You just seem to quote overall homicide figures. No one really cares about the gangbangers/ Latino gangsters type shootings. They can wipe each other off the face of the world as far as most people are concerned. Its the mass slaughter, killing of innocents in basically walk through shootings using military grade weapons and high capacity magazines that are nearly 100% to blame for these atrocities. Why does anyone outside of the military need to own this type of killing equipment. I agree that it is people who kill but owning/having one of these guns makes the job a hell of a lot easier.

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 12, 2019, 10:07 am

AlexO wrote:
August 12, 2019, 9:31 am

LS
You just seem to quote overall homicide figures. No one really cares about the gangbangers/ Latino gangsters type shootings. They can wipe each other off the face of the world as far as most people are concerned. Its the mass slaughter, killing of innocents in basically walk through shootings using military grade weapons and high capacity magazines that are nearly 100% to blame for these atrocities. Why does anyone outside of the military need to own this type of killing equipment. I agree that it is people who kill but owning/having one of these guns makes the job a hell of a lot easier.
I'm aware of the emphasis.

That's why my most recent post dealt squarely with the long guns and specifically "assault rifles." Hammers and clubs and knives are more deadly than ALL rifle styles in America involved in homicides.

Just the other day, a lunatic with a knife in Southern California went on a random stabbing spree. 4 dead. 2 wounded.

A semiautomatic rifle, regardless of clip size, does not qualify as military grade or as an assault weapon. Military grade rifles and assault rifles are not available to the general public. They are already heavily restricted.

As I recall, none of the weapons used in any of the mass shootings were military grade or assault rifles.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by papafarang » August 12, 2019, 11:30 am

Lone Star wrote:
August 12, 2019, 10:07 am
AlexO wrote:
August 12, 2019, 9:31 am

LS
You just seem to quote overall homicide figures. No one really cares about the gangbangers/ Latino gangsters type shootings. They can wipe each other off the face of the world as far as most people are concerned. Its the mass slaughter, killing of innocents in basically walk through shootings using military grade weapons and high capacity magazines that are nearly 100% to blame for these atrocities. Why does anyone outside of the military need to own this type of killing equipment. I agree that it is people who kill but owning/having one of these guns makes the job a hell of a lot easier.
I'm aware of the emphasis.

That's why my most recent post dealt squarely with the long guns and specifically "assault rifles." Hammers and clubs and knives are more deadly than ALL rifle styles in America involved in homicides.

Just the other day, a lunatic with a knife in Southern California went on a random stabbing spree. 4 dead. 2 wounded.

A semiautomatic rifle, regardless of clip size, does not qualify as military grade or as an assault weapon. Military grade rifles and assault rifles are not available to the general public. They are already heavily restricted.

As I recall, none of the weapons used in any of the mass shootings were military grade or assault rifles.
long guns ? so how many killed with long knives, your still including hammers ,clubs ,knives,frying pans,sticks,rocks to plump up the numbers , so if plumping numbers , put hand guns, rifles, shotguns together then ,and … yep guns are still Americas favorite murder weapon.as for another person murdering 4 people over 2 hours, imagine if it took the police 2 hours to catch a guy with a gun and how much damage and mayhem he could have caused with a gun
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by AlexO » August 12, 2019, 1:28 pm

As I recall, none of the weapons used in any of the mass shootings were military grade or assault rifles.

Jeez LS, I have kinda supported you in most of your fights against the OTHER side. But that really takes the biscuit, (sorry UK term) so the mass slaughters are mainly the result of someone walking into a school, shopping mall, nightclub and blasting people to death with a hunting rifle. Please show by example one of these insane actions were carried out by a single shot, bolt action, breech loading gun. Are Americans so scared of deer etc the they need 30 round quick fire guns just in case the deer gets angry.

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by AlexO » August 12, 2019, 3:27 pm

As I recall, none of the weapons used in any of the mass shootings were military grade or assault rifles.
[/quote]
long guns ? so how many killed with long knives, your still including hammers ,clubs ,knives,frying pans,sticks,rocks to plump up the numbers , so if plumping numbers , put hand guns, rifles, shotguns together then ,and … yep guns are still Americas favorite murder weapon.as for another person murdering 4 people over 2 hours, imagine if it took the police 2 hours to catch a guy with a gun and how much damage and mayhem he could have caused with a gun
[/quote]

You are really losing me as a supporter and the the argument LS. An imitation AK47, AR15 are not military grade?? It does not take huge skill or expertise to modify the working parts of these guns back to fully functioning military killing weapons. Where in the US of A are the deer so dangerous that you need 30 round magazines to ensure your safety. I have asked a couple of questions A/ When was the last time a patriotic citizen "carrying" was able to prevent these crimes by shooting the perp and B/ When did a mass murderer with a single shot, bolt action hunting rifle nutter carry out the mass slaughter of innocent civilians. To date no response. I say again 4 and 2, not the same as 20 and 26.

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 13, 2019, 5:13 am

imagine if it took the police 2 hours to catch a guy with a gun and how much damage and mayhem he could have caused with a gun
Oooops.

Someone -- unintentionally -- just repeated what Americans argue as a great reason for KEEPING their guns. It was almost echoed verbatim in the words of 2nd Amendment advocates: "Police can't be everywhere."

Americans know it, law enforcement admits it, and it's why most of US law enforcement encourages responsible gun ownership. They know they can't be everywhere.

seconds count.jpg
long guns ?
. . .
so if plumping numbers , put hand guns, rifles, shotguns together then
More evidence that you haven't been paying attention.

Long guns are called that because, well, they're long. Like rifles and shotguns, which ARE included in the numbers.

I'm discussing mass shootings and the common weapons of choice that tend to affect the highest numbers of victims, not handguns.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 13, 2019, 5:27 am

AlexO wrote:
August 12, 2019, 3:27 pm

You are really losing me as a supporter and the the argument LS. An imitation AK47, AR15 are not military grade?? It does not take huge skill or expertise to modify the working parts of these guns back to fully functioning military killing weapons. Where in the US of A are the deer so dangerous that you need 30 round magazines to ensure your safety. I have asked a couple of questions A/ When was the last time a patriotic citizen "carrying" was able to prevent these crimes by shooting the perp and B/ When did a mass murderer with a single shot, bolt action hunting rifle nutter carry out the mass slaughter of innocent civilians. To date no response. I say again 4 and 2, not the same as 20 and 26.
I'm not necessarily trying to gain any "support" -- just explaining how things are; and I don't expect people from other countries to ever understand.

Semi-automatic weapons are not classified as military grade or "assault weapons" in the legal definition.

You're correct. It doesn't take huge skill to modify a semi-automatic, but then that would be illegal and bring them closer to the legal definition of "assault rifle." But they are not sold that way. Anyone who modifies a firearm to be fully automatic will have big problems with ATF.

The Right to Bear Arms has nothing to do with hunting, AlexO. That's not why the Founders and Framers included it in the Bill of Rights and placed it second in the list.

Statistics from various sources indicate that there are over 1 MILLION occurrences per year -- in a population of over 310 million people -- where firearms are used to defend innocent people and save lives against criminal attack, home invasions, car jackings and other similar crimes. (I ran across one the other day. I'll try to dig it up.)

That's only 0.32% of the population in a society that is free. The statistics bear out the fact that the use of weapons for DEFENSE far outweigh the number of occurrences of mass shootings. Like you said, no one's interested if gang-bangers kill each other with handguns or anything else.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 13, 2019, 5:33 am

Arming Teachers.jpg

Now after looking at this map and how states view firearms for protection on school campuses, who still thinks that there will be enough states to ratify a change in the 2nd Amendment? There are only 6 states who have no such legislation allowing people to protect themselves on school campuses.

In some states, included in the legislation to arm teachers are concealed carry laws that allow any adult with a concealed carry permit to have a gun on campus and also allows college students to have guns on university campuses.

The six states that have no provision for any such possession of firearms on campus.
- Alaska (Alaskans already know how to handle their business.)
- California (Who's surprised?)
- Illinois (Chicago is located here. Who needs guns, right?)
- New Hampshire
- New Mexico
- Virginia

Where mass shootings are involved -- whether on or off campus -- the weapon of choice has been a long gun -- a rifle. The anti-gun crowd likes to call any long gun that looks "scary" with a clip an "assault rifle," but that's not the legal definition.

"Assault rifles" have a selectable firing mode and can fire fully automatic. Select firing mode allows the shooter to toggle between semiautomatic (single shot on each pull) or fully automatic (multiple shots on each pull).

Most handguns, many rifles and even shotguns work in semiautomatic mode. Pull the trigger, one projectile comes out. Semiautomatic firearms are NOT assault weapons.

Fully automatic weapons are also known as machine guns and ARE "assault weapons." Fully automatic weapons are not accessible to the general population.

The graphic below shows two scary looking long guns. Only one meets the definition of "assault rifle."

Assault Rifle Contrast.jpg

In summary, it's how the long gun performs that qualifies it as an "assault rifle" -- not how it looks. There are hunting rifles of much larger caliber that have multiround clips that do more damage than a .223 caliber round from the M4 or Mossberg MMR.

NOTE: Each state has their own gun laws and definitions within those laws. It's quite possible that there are some states that will have an "assault rifle" definition that differs.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 13, 2019, 5:44 am

AlexO wrote:
August 12, 2019, 3:27 pm
. . .

A/ When was the last time a patriotic citizen "carrying" was able to prevent these crimes by shooting the perp and

. . .
There are several surveys quoted in this article. The numbers range from 100,000 uses of firearms in self defense per year to 2.5 million or more.

https://www.wnd.com/2005/09/32103/

The number of times firearms are used in defense for law-abiding citizens is thousands more times than the homicide rate with firearms in the US.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by FrazeeDK » August 13, 2019, 1:23 pm

plenty of jackasses in the States that are irresponsible with firearms. You only need to go out into most any rural area to see road signs swiss-cheesed with bullet holes... As for defining "military grade" well it seems Lone Star is referring to a weapon with automatic firing capability, i.e. one trigger pull, many bullets. Other than a mechanical difference in a trigger sear there's no difference between a commercially sold semi-automatic AK-47, M-16 or any of the many and sundry military styled weapons with high capacity mags.. The gun control advocates should just apply a higher excise tax to such weapons and magazines...
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Doodoo » August 13, 2019, 1:36 pm

LS states "The Fully automatic weapons are also known as machine guns and ARE "assault weapons." Fully automatic weapons are not accessible to the general population."
And research says
"Here Are The Actual Federal Laws Regulating Machine Guns In The U.S.
Private ownership of machine guns made after 1986 is banned by federal law. All pre-1986 automatic weapons must be registered with the ATF and require extensive background checks before private citizens may own them."

So the answer is YES you can own a fully automatic weapon in the USA

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 13, 2019, 2:46 pm

Doodoo wrote:
August 13, 2019, 1:36 pm
LS states "The Fully automatic weapons are also known as machine guns and ARE "assault weapons." Fully automatic weapons are not accessible to the general population."
And research says
"Here Are The Actual Federal Laws Regulating Machine Guns In The U.S.
Private ownership of machine guns made after 1986 is banned by federal law. All pre-1986 automatic weapons must be registered with the ATF and require extensive background checks before private citizens may own them."

So the answer is YES you can own a fully automatic weapon in the USA
I'm fully aware of ALL of that, and my previous statement is correct, which is why I made reference to the general population. A guy off the street -- general population -- doesn't walk into a retail outlet and buy a fully automatic weapon as a private citizen.

Usually only private gun dealers have pre-1986 automatic weapons, and yes, there are extensive background checks and expensive ATF stamps that must be paid to get the weapons. Those who acquire these weapons are registered. The ATF doesn't grant these stamps easily for what are now 34+ year-old weapons.

In all my years in law enforcement and being around private gun owners, I have known exactly ONE person who had the financial resources to acquire ATF stamps for several automatic weapons. That was a guy I met in 1979 in West Texas. He had a basement full of weapons. He was a gun dealer and collector.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by vlad » August 13, 2019, 3:03 pm

So when we see video's on U TUBE where a 16 yr old walks in and is offered a fully Automated assault rife its fake ?? and wallmart have now stopped selling them ?? how many u tube videos have we seen where people have walked in gun shops and walked out with an assault rifle LS. Do not try and tell us there all background checked. The evidence is there for all to see.

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 13, 2019, 3:39 pm

FrazeeDK wrote:
August 13, 2019, 1:23 pm
plenty of jackasses in the States that are irresponsible with firearms. You only need to go out into most any rural area to see road signs swiss-cheesed with bullet holes... As for defining "military grade" well it seems Lone Star is referring to a weapon with automatic firing capability, i.e. one trigger pull, many bullets. Other than a mechanical difference in a trigger sear there's no difference between a commercially sold semi-automatic AK-47, M-16 or any of the many and sundry military styled weapons with high capacity mags.. The gun control advocates should just apply a higher excise tax to such weapons and magazines...
Yes, glad it's just road signs.

Yes, having a selector switch to make firing fully automatic is part of the legal definition in many states. Yes, the caliber of the round is usually the same between "military grade" and being available for general population purchase.

In the past, there have been efforts to over-tax weapons, over-tax ammunition, outlaw ammunition, outlaw high-capacity magazines and even require the purchase of liability insurance at an extremely high cost to anyone purchasing a weapon -- all to act as deterrents to exercise one's right to arms. There have even been attempts by groups to sue gun manufacturers for the actions of a maniac who misuses their product and assaults someone. All have been a "work-around" to try to prevent a right granted by the US Constitution. For any number of reasons -- mostly court-related -- none have made it to fruition.

PC culture has had much to do with failure to report individuals who are likely to be a danger to themselves and others, or a failure by various levels of government agencies to act within the law to "red flag" an individual and prevent the acquisition of the firearm.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Doodoo » August 13, 2019, 3:41 pm

Then you should tell the whole story when you have a chance

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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Lone Star » August 13, 2019, 4:11 pm

Doodoo wrote:
August 13, 2019, 3:41 pm
Then you should tell the whole story when you have a chance
Where you are concerned -- and you've proven it to be so -- it requires that I write a History of the World with each post in order to tell what you consider to be "the whole story." As it is, you and vladdie and your other cohorts already complain that my posts are too long and that you don't even bother to read them anyway. You had a little party about this just the other day in the US Politics thread. So when I post, I'm not posting to meet the benchmark of people who regularly announce that they aren't even reading what I post. But apparently, you do read what I post.

You spend your days scouring my posts looking for an opening -- any opening -- to try to characterize me as someone who is untruthful and not to be trusted. You have made yourself a self-appointed sleuth in finding something that happened 10 days before or 10 years after or in another article or is in some tangential way related -- and then claim that my information cannot be trusted. The evidence of your efforts? With all that I have provided with sources here on guns -- and my personal experience and opinions on guns over half a century (not that I am an expert in any way) -- the only thing you can find to attack is that I didn't go into enough detail for you as to how automatic weapons are obtained. But you went there anyway, and I elaborated on it, as I often do for the readership.

Most people know what "general population" means. That's why I didn't get into the weeds of explaining any process for obtaining a fully automatic weapon. If you really want to get technical, as you so often attempt to do, I never said that automatic could not be obtained at all. Besides -- and this is key -- the guys who obtain ATF stamps are NOT the guys we need to fear going into and shooting up a Walmart or school. The Feds know who they are and know what weapons they possess.
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Re: America Today - Teachers Arming in Schools

Post by Barney » August 13, 2019, 4:17 pm

Just a comment
So this whole thread has morphed from a story about a documentary about 1 area of the USA pushing to arm teachers, but has now turned into just another gun , no gun argument. Same rhetoric as all the other long winded discussions.
I don't have a dog in any of the fights in regard to guns or no guns but wonder about what is a real historical root cause of how the USA got to this stage in its history of frequent mass shootings, yes other countries have mass shootings but no way near in the same number as the USA, to where it now has a completely different mind set and culture to the rest of the developed 1st world. The gun culture in the USA is with what is perceived to be amongst the normal population, maybe I am wrong but the normal population of other countries do not think or are as passionate about guns. The 2nd amendment is just a part of the discussion, to allow gun people to provide some legitimacy and which now is a very tired argument. The USA need to go much deeper to find the root cause of the mentality.
Keep the guns, I don't care, but the people of the USA need to have a good hard look at themselves, admit something is wrong and not be so defensive and aggressive in using the 2nd amendment.
I have over the last number of years worked for large USA construction companies and a large number of the guys I work with guns seem to be a very popular subject, they are passionate, I'll give them that. I don't join in but just passively listen and wonder how I, as an aussie, am so far apart from that thinking and discussion. They all have multiple numbers of guns. Good responsible guys with proper storage of their weapons and to my knowledge none would ever go out and cause havoc.
I think in my very short exposure to guns I have fired a 22 gun maybe 5 times that's it. It was never spoke of in the family or part of my social upbringing for any one around me to have guns. I'm sure some did but just lying around the shed in most likely in bad condition. Lots of blokes do have legal guns in Australia and head out bush on to properties to shoot roos, etc. Conspiracy theories aside once Australia had our Port Arthur massacre the govt was very quick to reign in the non required guns with a buy back scheme. There is no argument from me that the criminals have guns, but as long as they shoot each other aussies don't care.
My good friend and work colleague from the states who has just retired is well into his guns and hunting, we are absolutely poles apart on that thinking and what we would do with our personal recreation time. I would relax and go camping or whatever with not ever a thought of going shooting or killing something. He just emailed me and said he is going fishing in Alaska, then to Idaho to shoot elk, then back Deer shooting then after that goose and duck hunting. His whole recreation is shooting. Good luck to him but it isn't my cup of tea.

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