What Red Dots?

when ever i look at the web cam its either lights out(except fridge) or the odd one or two people in view.

Val and Stu,

Both to my mind perfectly express my point of view on this. I have been, in a snidey and underhand sort of way, accused of taking a moral high ground, and it has got absolutely nothing to do with that.

There are many people here who live in Udonthani full time, part time (like me) or hope to, and all definately do not want it to be turned into a magnet for two week sex tourists, or their follow up ilk who get trapped into a bad relationship, and then get stuck here, after having burnt their boats, indefinately boring people in bars down town about how bad Thai's are etc etc etc. We have all seen them, and it shames me to be a farang also.

All that being said, Lee has stated quite clearly why they have been removed. Why that cannot be just take at face value I do not know. A commercial decision because Udonmap does not want to be associated with prostitution. Any other reasons are absolutely no concern of any poster on here IMHO. A webcam in a bar, and it could be any bar, does not add to that association. Yes, I know.....I don't go there either...

However, and its a big however, there are still posts on this site(very closely associated with the map) giving locations, costs etc etc. OK, that is free speech, and I fully agree with that , its also within the rules of the forum, expressed liberally in Thai terms. It's an illegal activity in Thailand (against the rules) but accepted in the real world.

The point here is, do forum posters actually want free speech? (they can be abused, anything can be said, minority groups or individuals can be made the subject of jest, serious posts can be subject to interjections of "humour" when there is a minor phrasing mistake), or would they prefer a return to a forum where it was actually useful information. If new joiners can accept that this is supposed to be discussion about Udon, life in Udon, and related matters then they should be welcomed.

Please discuss, hopefully not in a flaming manner, Brian has shown how it is possible.....

If its going to be an an forum then I think you have to have free speach and different opinions etc. If we are going to claim to live in a democracy and advocate democracy then we have to at least try and be democratic. Otherwise we lay ourselfes open to all kind of abuse and rightfully so becuase we are advocatinig what we would not be doing. However in certain situations I often think that democracy is the last thing that is needed . And these situations Are usually akin to leadership problems . The forces are supposed to be the protectors of democracy but just try getting a vote on what time you have to get out of bed or if you go to WAR OR NOT .
The are many forums about many different things ands how they are run and how people behave are govenered by the opening directive stating what the forum is about . You break the rules and get kicked of ,its as simple as that. When you belong to one then then it is that simple , the rules are made up and anyone breaks them or tries to alter them then they get kicked of. Its not run as a democracy ,its what one person decides he wishes to talk about and if other folk agree with him then the forum takes off . iF THEY WORK AND NOT MANY DO THEN USUALLY THEY ARE NOT MONEY MAKING SITES BUT THERE FOR THE INTELECTUAL
GRATIFICATION OF A FEW PEOPLE . aND USUALLY THEY FALL APART AS THE DISCUSION ALWAYS VEARS AWAY FROM THE ORIGINAL AS MORE AND MORE IDEAS OPEN UP NEW AVENUES TO EXPLORE. THE FOLK WHO KICK UP STINK ON THESE FORUMS ARE USUALLY THE ONES WHO SUDDENLY FEAR A CERTAIN ASPECT THAT COMES UP FOR DISCUSSION . I DIGRESS I FEAR. Point is you dont have to be a democratic forum . you can have a democratic vote and decide to be a decidely undemocratic forum . New people can be given the rules and the the penalty for breaking them and anyone who disagrees with the result of the vote can leave and form there own forum and talk about what they want .and play with there own ball . This is I believe Lee"s forum so he gets to make the rules . I think this forum does an excellant job ,however in doing such a good job it does open peoples eyes to life in Udon and as always there will be people who like the idea of that life and then other people who see an opportunity to exploit it in one way or another. I have lived in quite a few citys and there has not been one that has not had prostitution in one form or another , if you where to clain Udon to be whiter than white then no one would believe you. what I think folks really want to know is how it would effect them . is it confined to one area . is it a huge problem or a small one ? Are you confronted by it everry day ? The problem is that when they find out its not major problem then I guess they look at moving to your area . I think Udon might well be becoming popular , one thing is for sure it was a me reading this site at the same time as meeting my girlfriend that made me come here. And what came across the most was that on this forum there were a group of people all of reasonable intellect who seemed to care about the city they lived in ,who could have both sensible and fun conversation without wanting to break each others necks . So maybe it was the people on the forum who infliuenced my decision rather than the content of the forum , in which case you can all take a bow or go blow your brains out depending on how much you like or dislike my input. I think also that this forum is probably more widely read than maybe you imagine ,when I thought of coming to Thailand I read every forum I could find of every city etc. followed all the links etc. Im sure other folk would do the same ,which means again I guesss that you do have some influence in who comes to the city .

Yourkman Im all for free speach so long as I dont have to listen to it all ?? however one point you said . "If new joiners can accept that this is supposed to be discussion about Udon, life in Udon, and related matters then they should be welcomed." Well prostitution is a related matter and so just as now some folk will want to know and talk about it and think it ok to do so . And if that was the wording of say a new forum then they would be right to have that desire within the forum. On the other hand say No talk of prostitution ,red light areas will be tolerated then folk now exactly where they stand. From a personell opinion I would just ban it all and talk and read only what I wanted to hear but the sighn above my company used to read ,if you think this is a democracy your wrong .

Some really good postings there, Stu, Yorkman, Aj.

I really liked this posting from Stu

Udonmap is an invaluable source of information for people living in and traveling to the area, and there are a lot of good folks on the forum, but in my opinion, some aspects of it are doing more harm than good. The removal of the red dots is a good start, but IMHO, it doesn’t go far enough. I’m not condoning censorship here, (give me a break, please) I’m only tying to point out what I see is a significant contribution to the deterioration in the quality of life in Udon. You guys can pull up stakes and move on when things go to hell in the city, but the Thai people have to live with the aftermath. Please think about that. Thank you and have a nice day. Stu

I agree that that anything that reduces the Udonmap's association with prostitution is better for the image of Udonmap and indeed us farangs who effectively are associated with the map. As has been said, people can still post about such subjects within the Forum, and there is a "nightlife" section for that, which is not "in your face".

As to webcams in bars, I see the point that is being made and the logic, though to me such cameras, which I rarely look at anyway, are just a means of seeing if there are many people in the bar and maybe who. To me they are not drawing attention to the fact that prostitution MAY be initiated there. They are not encouraging, highlighting or demonstrating the activity.

I can't at the moment think of the right expression to illustrate my point here, but it's something like, "you see what you want to see". Or maybe similar to "beauty is in the eye of the beholder".

I have made use of a local bar's webcam, by texting my children in the Uk and telling them to look on the bar's webcam at a certain time. They texted me back to say they saw me, and 2 of the girls in the bar stood either side of me and waved also. A happy and innocent time was had by all.

And of course, if you do feel it's morally wrong to have a webcam in a bar beer, you don't have to look. (The same applies to the "Nightlife" section of the Forum). The red dots were more in your face, there for all to see, whether they wanted to or not.

I feel all in all that good progress has been made, not to promote a bad image of Udon, or to encourage the wrong sort of people to come here for the wrong reasons, and to move the presentation of the map more up market and suitable for a wider range of users. As was said normal people have to live there normal lives here. The map is a general publication, as distinct from the Forum, where you have to go online and seek out the information/material.

I think it's a good move.

I know issue 10 is an old issue. I had it open on my desk and out of curiosity looked at what the legend read. Personally I do not give a sick monkeys stuff whether they are there or not. It is a decision made by management for whatever reason management has. They own the map so it is the correct decision.

I am sure the Thai owners, operators and workers there do not care either. After all they have been in UT longer than most of us or at least longer than me.

A couple of comments from the female perspective (altho admittedly I'm a left-leaning, liberal humanist)...

1. Most cities of any significant size have a red-light district. In some cities it is considered by some a tourist attraction (Amsterdam, Bangkok). In other cities, it's simply a rather scuzzy area that one would rather not wander into unawares and/or alone.

I personally would rather know the general boundaries of an area into which I wouldn't want to wander unawares as a visitor, thank you very much. If someone were interested in browsing with a purpose, that would be OK also.

Many tourist maps of San Francisco and Paris, for example, indicate the adult entertainment districts. Atlanta's convention business results in "conventioneer" maps including the popular strip bars.

2. Moral judgements on prostitution have had little effect on its practice over the past, oh what...10,000 years or so, with or without legal enforcement. If it exists, it exists -- and an objective acknowledgement of such is all that need be made.

SHARA