Will you break trust to gain trust?

by **lynxlynx** » November 25, 2007, 5:31 am

It was the mentioning by other member of this forum (in one of the recent threads) regarding his "interception" of his ex-girlfriend's emails that led me to open this thread. The subject is most controversial as it touches on some sensitive issues.

Will you break trust to gain trust?

Any relationship that isn

by **dill** » November 25, 2007, 5:38 am

great post
i honestle beleive that it is not only thai girls with the trust issues ,but also fallang girls.
and i found that it is hard to find a true fallang freind who you can trust these days to.

by **banpaeng** » November 25, 2007, 6:26 am

I agree with Dill on this one.

It never ceases to amaze me at folks trying to make Thais into their own class of women.

Women are women the world over.

I will agree that trust must be earned and never given lightly. This applies to men and women!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One can only be a victim of another if you want to believe enough. Think and slow on a relationship will help 100 fold.

by **Laan Yaa Mo** » November 25, 2007, 6:49 am

Maybe this game of cat and mouse is a useful way to check up on your supposed partner, and perhaps it is but a tool for the paranoid. It sure seems like much ado about nothing. Either you trust the person or you don't. To expect someone to shut down their communications with someone might be going overboard, in particular, if that person has developed a friendship with others.

More to the point, it seems that many of these people online, in Thailand and elsewhere, do not do their own reading and writing of their online messages. It could be an internet cafe owner who performs this task or a friend interpreting comments and remarks. Consequently, the girlfriend might just go around once a week or so to collect the gist of the messages and suggest a theme or two for the message writer to convey to the farang. If one were to monitor that computer, you might quickly come to the conclusion that your lady was the centre of a massive communications centre that is connected to many, many parts of the universe.

As far as Thai women expecting something material out of a relationship with a farang, this seems natural enough. Many of them are looking for security, if not just for themselves, then perhaps for their immediate family. Farangs represent opportunity in many of their eyes. A relationship with a farang might lead to greater opportunity and security for them. Who can blame them?

The farang should show a certain amount of generosity to the Thai girlfriend. Why wouldn't he? Some of the farangs, who come to Thailand are near retirement age and not in the best physical condition nor the most handsome specimens on the planet. It should be obvious that the Thai girlfriend of this person will not generally fall head over heels in love; however, over time, depending on how long he lives, she may grow to love him in her way. But she usually will hope to gain some financial security from this relationship be it in the form of jewels, housing, cash, car and so on. This makes sense.

Well, who knows?

Every relationship is different, but certain values such as committment, kindness, generosity remain important. To have private investigators running and snooping around, and using computer software to spy on your behalf, seems to take the romance, fun and adventure out of a relationship. It is almost as if you are dooming yourself to failure, and will be disappointed if you do not dig up some dirt. The goal appears to be look how I caught you out. Admit your guilt.

Not too many of us are perfect, not too many of us are 100% honest, and not too many us would come up smelling roses if Inspector Morse or Columbo, came investigating our past and future lives. These women are not our 'Private Dancers' for goodness sake.

And remember there are always two sides to every story. On this site, and others like Thaivisa, we only get to hear, in most cases, the farang's point of view. We do not know what the farang may have done, or not done, to aggravate the situation. We do not hear from the Thai. We do not know what might have prompted their action(s). It is very difficult to be a good listener, and to be considerate enough to understand the other person's point of view.

What happens when they have a disagreement? Does the farang, or the Thai, walk away from the problem and not try to communicate. Do they have respect for one another? Do they listen to one another?

I know of a couple in Toronto who were having domestic disputes time and time again. The husband finally said, I need a timeout. When I come back we will discuss the issue. This is reasonable. However, the wife soon noted that he began fights on Friday nights and usually the timeout would began at 8:30. Well, it turns out that he met his friend at that time and they would go to a nearby strip joint. He would return at two in the morning smelling of alcohol, and be ready to sleep. This guy just could not understand why his wife persisted in complaining even after he thoughtfully took his time out so the argument would not escalate to something approaching violence.

Life is not easy, enjoy it while you can, and think, think, think.

by **banpaeng** » November 25, 2007, 7:59 am

Great writing Tilokarat. I to wonder why someone would go to so much trouble. Heck if you can not trust someone, "walk away". Once trust is given and then broken, if it can't be mended, "walk away".

by **Laan Yaa Mo** » November 25, 2007, 9:19 am

Yes, trust is a bit like Humpty-Dumpty. It is very hard to put back together again.

The difficult part is confronting the break-up. Why did we get in this position? What might have I (male or female) done to have made the situation better? How did I contribute to the problem? Did I listen? Was I considerate?

by **aznyron** » November 25, 2007, 11:21 am

execent post
I also was scammed by thai lady
the sad part was the dream got destroyed as for the money I lost no big deal I enjoyed the times we were together so I just forgot about it But the dream is the part you don't forget because when it get destroyed pain & sorrow follows after and you some times lose trust in women
I think most of us who come to Thai. for love are fed up with the western lady and her B/S
I am now married to a Thai lady I trust her with my life but sadly I did not meet her first
like most men they want to shower there girls friends & wifes with gifts I am no different
we think some how by doing this they will never leave us how foolish we are in believing that
some how we give them the impression they can find two or three more fools and scam them
that what happen to me. So I say to my fellow man think before you spend because a gift belongs to her there is no returning it. I know it not easy when you spend a ton of money on a comfortable bed for you & her to share and you find another man now sleeping in the bed with your lady that you paid for it hard pill to swallow but a gift is a gift and she is free to do what she wants. so my advice is becareful with your money as well as your heart
and don't break the trust they will do it for you give them the rope and they will hang themselfs
this is a good post every one should read & ad to it we all have good ideas so let share them AMEN

by **BKKSTAN** » November 25, 2007, 12:48 pm

In America,when I trusted someone,I trusted them to never boldface lie to me!When and if they violated that trust the relationship was usually over!Although, in a couple of circumstances,because the relationship had such long tenure and history or the explanation was plausable,the trust was restored.

Thailand has a ''face'' type culture and because of that and the short duration of time involved before the relationship,it is difficult if not ridiculous to give your trust easily!Therefore,IMO,it is imperative to set boundaries through communication until understood and accepted!Because they will be tested,you must be consistant and nice.If the makings of a good relationship are there,time will tell!

If your crotch is your guide,I suggest ruling out any longterm relationships that it refers you to :lol:

I think the preceeding posts were well thought out and made excellent points and reading!

by **lynxlynx** » November 25, 2007, 2:01 pm

Thank you for your complex feedback, Tilokarat.

Here are some parts of it that I would like to dispute.
`

Tilokarat wrote:It sure seems like much ado about nothing. Either you trust the person or you don't.

I couldn't disagree more. The majority of farangs who marry Thai girls do so without a sufficient knowledge about the girls' background and history and after a ridiculously short period of time. Sometimes they get lucky (and I am happy for them) but many times they don't. While a positive outcome of a background check doesn't automatically guarantee positive future outcomes, it greatly reduces the odds of the negative ones. Whereas a blemished resume will almost certainly guarantee the opposite. Given that most of the men married to Thai girls are seniors (or beyond their youth) who will not get many new chances if they screw up, given the incredibly high divorce rate of Thai/farang marriages and the high stakes that might be inreversibly lost - then the point of view "you either trust her or not" is in my opinion totally careless.

Tilokarat wrote:To expect someone to shut down their communications with someone might be going overboard, in particular, if that person has developed a friendship with others.

Hmmm. Friendships that are forged over dating servers (given their nature) are of the least desirable kind to be maintained when one enters into a serious relationship and their cancellation seems to be the most sensible thing to do as well as the least painful concession to be made for the sake of the relationship. While I could probably bite my lips and get over some of those being maintained (provided they were honestly disclosed and explained to me by my spouse or girlfriend), I can assure you that should any farang's Thai wife or girlfriend find out that her husband/boyfriend is communicating with some of the girls he met on TLL or any such website, she would redefine his understanding of "going overboard".

Tilokarat wrote:As far as Thai women expecting something material out of a relationship with a farang, this seems natural enough. Many of them are looking for security, if not just for themselves, then perhaps for their immediate family. Farangs represent opportunity in many of their eyes. A relationship with a farang might lead to greater opportunity and security for them. Who can blame them?

I agree and I am not aware of any judgemental statements in this regard in my original submission apart from the factual .....

Tilokarat wrote:Every relationship is different, but certain values such as committment, kindness, generosity remain important. To have private investigators running and snooping around, and using computer software to spy on your behalf, seems to take the romance, fun and adventure out of a relationship.

I couldn't agree more.

Tilokarat wrote:And remember there are always two sides to every story. On this site, and others like Thaivisa, we only get to hear, in most cases, the farang's point of view.

Their side of the story is not the subject of this submission. However, I am sure I will get to that in a due course but in a different thread.

Did I do that? Did I cross the treshold? I did once. Gulity as charged. I gained the access to her email acount from a distance (in a manner that a commercial software wouldn't handle). This person wasn't unknown to me - on the opposite. She used to be very close to me at one point and I had no reason to believe that she would be capable of causing me any harm - apart from a repeated heartbreak. But I had to make a decision that would involve my relocation to Thailand. This would have required a significant financial commitment on my part as well as a complete change of my directions and plans, so I wasn't going to take any chances. What I discovered shook my trust towards the female species for years to come. I have no doubt whatsoever that had I not done what I had, I'd be half broke by now, bitter to the core of my bones and regretful that I had adhered to some moral principles. At the same time though, being inside somebody else's email made me feel extremely uncomfortable. I learned things about the girl's life I would have preferred not to be aware of. But more importantly, I gained knowledge and evidence that could have taken the girl's life apart in many aspects. The temptation to exercise this power fueled by the revengful state of my mind at the time was unbearable. In the end, I managed to restrain myself and did nothing. She never even knew I was in her email account. I would hate to find myself again in such a situation because I have to admit to myself that "I am too weak to bear the ring" - if I may borrow this theme from Tolkien.

I spent well over a third of my life bouncing between numerous countries on five continents. Coming from a small European country, I was forced to learn and understand other cultures, languages and habits to a larger extent than most people ever will. I can assure you of one thing - women differ (apart from the most basic characteristics) from one country to another and making the claim that all women are the same is a pure intercultural ignorance. Each race and nation has its pluses and minus and differences. It pays off to be aware of them and accept their existence.

I am still at the age when I don't need to make too many compromises as far as my relationships with women are concerned. I prefer to aim at women that can match my level of wealth, education and experience, as this segment is far more likely to be making decisions about me on the basis of my character - without a financial gain being the main item on the agenda. And unfortunately, it is nearly impossible for me to find them in Thailand (before some notorious Thai female defender jumps out again and occuses me of arrogance or racial prejudice, please chill out, this is not meant as a judgemental or prejudicial statement) and I am really sorry about that because the Thai women have many other qualities that make them stand out over other nations and make me shiver from excitement. However, I am fully aware that my relatively young age and acceptable appearance give me a minute advantage over guys much older than me or physically challenged. The Thai perception of love and marriage is based on very different fundamentals than are those that we are used to in the Western hemisphere. A contract of sort comes to my mind. Don't be delusional about it and don't be ashamed to admit this to yourself. There is nothing wrong about it as long as there is a balance in the different values exchanged between the parties. In a way, such a relationship can be far more rewarding than the traditional Western marriage. But it is a contract and you should do your due dilligence by all means available to you prior to closing deal, because she will do her accounting very dilligently.

I will end my post with this very fine example of beauty that is on display only in Thailand.

by **lynxlynx** » November 25, 2007, 2:18 pm

Funny, I already know the hours when many of you start posting.

by **Roadman** » November 25, 2007, 3:31 pm

Why level yourself to something, that you point out, is at the least unethical.
I could not go on to form a serious relationship with someone who I had lowered myself to snoop on before I knew them. So to me the answer to your question is no, I would not agree that breaking trust to gain trust is acceptable, as the minute either party breaks that trust then there is no trust to go on with.

Someone made the comment that thai women (take your pick asain or any other race) are no different to western women and they are dead right. However where the point of difference is here is in a western romance or lets not be naive here, negotiation for marriage in mid life is more appropriate, is that generally that western women is just a car ride away to develop the relationship. For the thai relationship development it is generally being undertaken on a 3 week yearly holiday and a limited savings budget. And the scam ripe falang with his tight schedule and very limited budget is rushing headlong into something he is generally incapable of undertaking even in his homeland.

And that is where the problem is. That falang rushs on in and breaks the first golden rule - "take your time and think with the thing in your head not the thing in your pants".
If he did that then he would lower (not completely eliminate as some are still scammed in real long term hoaxs) his chances or being taken by I would submit the lower percentage ot thai women out their scamming and we would not be discussing the need for hiring dicks to do what we should be doing from the start - taking the time to learn about the women that we are going to commit the rest of our live to.

by **gulfman** » November 25, 2007, 4:20 pm

Sorry, I don't know how to make those little white quopte boxes, but Lynxlynx wrote " .... women that can match my level of wealth, education and experience"

Having already said that he is well traveled and speaks several languages, he is obviously well educated and by the fact he mentions it, more wealthy than the average Thai.

Unfortunately, Thai ladies in the above category (well educated, well traveled and wealthy) usually come from a class of Thai society that would look down on marrying a falang. Within this cultural level of Thai society marriage to a falang, even a well educated and wealthy one, is looked upon in the same way that interracial marriages were looked upon in America fifty years ago.

I wish you luck, but I Thailand might not be the place for your ultimate dream.

by **BKKSTAN** » November 25, 2007, 5:55 pm

Gulfman is on the money!

by **dougness** » November 25, 2007, 6:32 pm

Forsure,everyone wants to hear the sensationalistic news.Yes we could all die tommorow,no more bs from me,because your currency of distrust is over.

by **arjay** » November 25, 2007, 7:53 pm

In terms of checking up (or "snooping", as someone said) on your partner, I think it is important to make the distinction between firstly, those who are living in LOS with their partner, - in which case I would agree that it should not be necessary to snoop, as you should be able to assess your partner from day to day activity and behaviours, - and secondly, those who are trying to conduct a "relationship" from afar, particularly if they have only known or been with their partner for short limited periods of time.

In the latter case there is a much greater risk, firstly in the relationship not sustaining and secondly of abuse and scams. And in this latter case, if someone is sending money every month to someone they maybe don't know as well as would desirable, I think it fair to check up on the recipient of their money!

Will you break trust to gain trust?

Will you break trust to gain trust?

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