And Trump knows what about climate change ? no he just pulled out because he wans to keep the edge . carbon footprint is about all of us, every individual but you wish to keep it to apples and oranges. look again at the numbers...or just keep waffling on , up too you

papafarang wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 8:13 am

How laughable , trump correct again ..on what .

Getting out because it was designed as a scam on Western countries.

china , their output is HUGE as the population is HUGE.
china ,india 36.28% of total world population, add in Russia and your probably hitting 40% ,then you compare it with the usa is 4.28% of the total world population, of course they use more .

You're always trying to win an argument that isn't being made.

I wasn't comparing anyone's use of coal to anyone else. Go back and read it again.

The increased use of coal is causing countries to not be able to meet the carbon emissions goals (even though the US has met and exceeded their goals). Countries like China and India and Russia that ramp up coal usage affects the total atmospheric environment. If there are no reductions, the Paris Climate Agreement is spinning its wheels. Wasted time. Wasted money.

Trumps pulls out is pure financial greed , nothing to do with it is or isn't true, like saying Exxon Mobil don't believe in climate change either

It's Trump being responsible with tax revenue of American citizens. If you equate someone avoiding a bad deal that screws them over as being greedy, you need some definition remediation. I guess by your definition, every other country that is backing off from participation in this flawed document is also greedy?

America First. The money is better spent on other things than a climate agreement that was doomed to failure. Non-binding agreement. No one has to follow any guidelines. No one has to explain where the money will be spent. No one has to explain any measurable results from the spending of billions of dollars. Yeah, that'll work. 555 Scam.

so I will explain it AGAIN with a simple chart , that a 5th grader would understand.

A 5th grader may or may not understand that the chart has nothing to do with the failure of Paris Climate Agreement. However, many more 5th graders also try to win arguments that aren't being made with charts that have nothing to do with the point being made -- the agreement is flawed and non-binding.

again it's about greed , and yes non binding . if tomorrow the scientist said with 100% certainty that the world will be a nasty place to live in the future , there will be floods, droughts, storms famine and pestilence , Trump wouldn't give a MONKEYS NUTS ABOUT IT.

'A 5th grader may or may not understand that the chart has nothing to do with the failure of Paris Climate Agreement. However, many more 5th graders also try to win arguments that aren't being made with charts that have nothing to do with the point being made -- the agreement is flawed and non-binding'

oh so this thread is not about climate change then. it's about Trump ? no I follow the thread ,not whatever tangent 'whataboutism' you want to take it on , yes non binding, flawed is just your opinion
but your the one pointing out india and china ,whats that got to do with America pulling out ? you can't have this discussion both ways ...oh it's non binding ..but but whatabout china .

'It's Trump being responsible with tax revenue of American citizens'
now that is laughable, you ramble on about it's a conspiracy to collect carbon tax , but not a peep about the recent huge taxes piled onto American businesses by Trump

pic host free

papafarang wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 10:31 am

oh so this thread is not about climate change then. it's about Trump ? no I follow the thread ,not whatever tangent 'whataboutism' you want to take it on , yes non binding, flawed is just your opinion
but your the one pointing out india and china ,whats that got to do with America pulling out ? you can't have this discussion both ways ...oh it's non binding ..but but whatabout china .

You miss the point yet again. You're arguing something that was not claimed in my post.

These things continue to happen AFTER the US left the agreement. My post was about the agreement continuing to collapse because India and China and Russia are ramping up coal use and not meeting their carbon emission targets - AND - other Western countries not wanting to cough up money to "developing countries" like India and China who aren't meeting targets.

Those two issues were just some of MANY of Trump's concerns and why the US is OUT of it. That's the connection.

now that is laughable, you ramble on about it's a conspiracy to collect carbon tax , but not a peep about the recent huge taxes piled onto American businesses by Trump

What "huge taxes piled onto American businesses by Trump"? You are seriously mistaken.

First of all, presidents don't create taxes. Congress creates taxes.

Secondly, the tax cuts proposed by Trump and passed by Congress REDUCED the corporate tax rate from 35% to 21%. Regulations were also massively cut to give businesses room to grow without long, drawn-out government delays to decisions and also allows them to write off many businesses expenses that were not allowed before. Those are just some reasons why the US economy is on fire.

Read up.

If you want to talk about your chart, then talk about it; but it has nothing to do with my post.

Lone Star wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 10:46 am

What "huge taxes piled onto American businesses by Trump"?

I'm just guessing (I haven't spoken with papafarang), but perhaps he's talking about the "tax" (in the generic sense) on businesses resulting from the tariff war. Not saying that it's wrong to impose tariffs on the goods of other countries to the extent that they impose tariffs on U.S. goods, but such a policy is not without consequences.

Udon Map wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 11:17 am

Lone Star wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 10:46 am

What "huge taxes piled onto American businesses by Trump"?

I'm just guessing (I haven't spoken with papafarang), but perhaps he's talking about the "tax" (in the generic sense) on businesses resulting from the tariff war. Not saying that it's wrong to impose tariffs on the goods of other countries to the extent that they impose tariffs on U.S. goods, but such a policy is not without consequences.

exactly Udon map, call it tax, call it tariffs, call it sanctions . but whatever you call it . the same thing . china won't have to pay a dime extra , but Americans consumers will. china is a developing market . and instead of America trying to work out how they can sell more to the Chinese , they go for their own consumers.
the Chinese ain't worried , if they want Levi jeans they just buy Chinese made ones . note china only slapped taxes on finished goods so they still buy cheap cloth from the states , they still sell finished levi's to America for the same price. it's only americans that have to pay more . that my friend is called being taxed . imagine being stupid enough to tax raw materials that you need for your own industry , and the opposition just taxes your finished high end goods , then you manage to persuade your own consumers that your doing them a favor .
Chinese imports continue to increase , and the extra tax will go to the consumer , meanwhile the Chinese are not going to crap their pants over having to pay a few dollars more for a bottle of jack are they.
simply put tariffs will raise billions for the American government and the money will come strait out of American consumers pockets …. so lets get back to carbon tax being a gigantic con to get tax revenue

papafarang wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 11:43 am

exactly Udon map, call it tax, call it tariffs, call it sanctions . but whatever you call it . the same thing . china won't have to pay a dime extra , but Americans consumers will. china is a developing market . and instead of America trying to work out how they can sell more to the Chinese , they go for their own consumers.
the Chinese ain't worried , if they want Levi jeans they just buy Chinese made ones . note china only slapped taxes on finished goods so they still buy cheap cloth from the states , they still sell finished levi's to America for the same price. it's only americans that have to pay more . that my friend is called being taxed . imagine being stupid enough to tax raw materials that you need for your own industry , and the opposition just taxes your finished high end goods , then you manage to persuade your own consumers that your doing them a favor .
Chinese imports continue to increase , and the extra tax will go to the consumer , meanwhile the Chinese are not going to crap their pants over having to pay a few dollars more for a bottle of jack are they.
simply put tariffs will raise billions for the American government and the money will come strait out of American consumers pockets …. so lets get back to carbon tax being a gigantic con to get tax revenue

So now the chart is gone that had nothing to do with my post, and you've moved into tariffs in the ClimateGate thread.

I guess you're looking for a different argument to win, but you'll have a hard time with this new argument too.

Businesses don't absorb added costs to their goods and services. They rarely even absorb local and federal taxes into their goods and services. They pass them on to consumers and into the total cost of the product/service. The consumer then decides whether or not the higher cost is worth it. No skin off the nose of the business or corporation. If the consumer wants to pay MORE for Chinese products, that's their decision. I would believe that most Americans can do comparative shopping, but everyone has different needs and looks at the value of an item differently.

It's no different for the expat who purchases something from their home country instead of buying it locally in Thailand. The expat consumer considers need and value and whether or not it's worth the added cost to pay the VAT and/or customs fees. For some, they spend the money. For others, they don't.

The biggest problem that the US has with China is theft of technology and other products.

the point was a reply to "what taxes " in relation to your carbon tax conspiracy theory.

"Businesses don't absorb added costs to their goods and services. They rarely even absorb local and federal taxes into their goods and services. They pass them on to consumers and into the total cost of the product/service. The consumer then decides whether or not the higher cost is worth it. No skin off the nose of the business or corporation. If the consumer wants to pay MORE for Chinese products, that's their decision"

not much of a business person are you , it's raw products , not Chinese goods, I can't think of any consumer needing 100 tons of steel, but he might need a car made from that steel...you know those American made steel products … not Chinese products.
Aircraft tires. consumers are unlikely to be buying tyres , but they might need a plane ticket
• Nuclear reactors . domestic nukes :lol:
• Boat motors . consumers are unlikely to be buying boats , but they might take a boat ride
• Aircraft engines and engine parts . you know many aircraft owners
• Air and gas compressors, which are used in various goods like refrigerators .up goes the price of an American manufactured fridge

• Industrial heating equipment .consumer will pay more as the factories still needs heating
• Scales, mostly for weighing large industrial equipment. I can see consumers boycotting these

I would go on but not got all day , but I think you get the drift. joe public will foot the bill as all of these "Chinese" good the consumers are buying . to me it looks like all the things needed to build products are on the list . finished Chinese consumer goods, do yo know any one who owns a Chinese car ? your having a laugh

• Cranes and other "lifting equipment"
• Bulldozers, backhoes, tampers, boring machines, and other large construction vehicles
• Oil and gas drilling platform parts
• Plows, mowers, combine harvester-threshers, and other large agricultural vehicles
• Dairy milkers, chicken incubators, and other livestock equipment
• Machinery for foods processing, including meat processing and fruit processing
• Machinery for making paper cardboard and other paper products
• Parts of printers and copy machines
• Machinery for processing and molding metals or cement, and their parts
• Machinery for making glass products, including lightbulbs
• Machinery for making rubber or plastic goods
• Ball bearings
• DC and AC generators of various sizes and power levels
• Electricity transformers
• Industrial magnets
• Lithium batteries and other batteries
• Industrial ovens and furnaces
• Radar and radio equipment
• Parts for televisions, video-recording equipment, and similar video products
• Electronic traffics signs
• Electrical equipment such as resistors and circuit breakers
• LEDs
• Trains and rail parts
• Large vehicles using both diesel and non-diesel fuel
• Some cars and trucks, motorcycles, helicopters, airplanes, and spacecraft
• Microscopes and telescopes
• Lasers
• Imaging and navigational equipment
• Medical equipment such as X-rays and pacemakers
• Scientific equipment such as pressure gauges and spectrometers

papafarang wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 1:09 pm

the point was a reply to "what taxes " in relation to your carbon tax conspiracy theory.

. . .

Make all the lists you wish. The US makes all of that and is one of few self-sufficient economies in the world.

Carbon taxes are real, and the US and Canada have both tried to buffalo their citizens into buying into that hoax -- along with other countries worldwide.

No evidence that tariffs on aluminum and steel have hurt the US economy. In fact, more jobs have been created in the US.

In addition, you grossly underestimate Americans' loyalty to American products and "America First." Americans will pay more to support their own.

"Make all the lists you wish. The US makes all of that and is one of few self-sufficient economies in the world."
And last months 50 billion in trade deficits proves America is self sufficient
self sufficient countries don't have deficits

i'm afraid that's trumps list not mine I did not make the list, and if America is self sufficient in all these products then how can they put tariffs on 35 billion dollars of imported products that they don't import anyway , oh I see they will buy American made aircraft tyres.. at a much higher price... so the price of a ticket will go up .
As I explained , it's a tax on consumers, and then you agree. then you disagree which is it because consumers don't buy Chinese products , American companies buy Chinese products to build things ,they then export those goods or sell to joe public

"Businesses don't absorb added costs to their goods and services. They rarely even absorb local and federal taxes into their goods and services. They pass them on to consumers and into the total cost of the product/service. The consumer then decides whether or not the higher cost is worth it. No skin off the nose of the business or corporation. If the consumer wants to pay MORE for Chinese products, that's their decision. I would believe that most Americans can do comparative shopping, but everyone has different needs and looks at the value of an item differently"

how many different ways can I explain it as you don't seen to grasp these FACTS . consumers don't buy Chinese products why can't you get out your head . it's not complicated . it's like i'm using a computer made in china, with American chips inside , china to carry on selling the computers decided not to tax the chips as it would make my laptop more expensive .

Trump never presents Tariffs as a tax on his base, when he boasts about how much money they bring in, but then again maybe he does NOT understand that Tariffs are a tax on consumers and businesses. Jeff is not the ****** Trump is.

papafarang wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 3:37 pm

"Make all the lists you wish. The US makes all of that and is one of few self-sufficient economies in the world."
And last months 50 billion in trade deficits proves America is self sufficient
self sufficient countries don't have deficits

i'm afraid that's trumps list not mine I did not make the list, and if America is self sufficient in all these products then how can they put tariffs on 35 billion dollars of imported products that they don't import anyway , oh I see they will buy American made aircraft tyres.. at a much higher price... so the price of a ticket will go up .
As I explained , it's a tax on consumers, and then you agree. then you disagree which is it because consumers don't buy Chinese products , American companies buy Chinese products to build things ,they then export those goods or sell to joe public

"Businesses don't absorb added costs to their goods and services. They rarely even absorb local and federal taxes into their goods and services. They pass them on to consumers and into the total cost of the product/service. The consumer then decides whether or not the higher cost is worth it. No skin off the nose of the business or corporation. If the consumer wants to pay MORE for Chinese products, that's their decision. I would believe that most Americans can do comparative shopping, but everyone has different needs and looks at the value of an item differently"

how many different ways can I explain it as you don't seen to grasp these FACTS . consumers don't buy Chinese products why can't you get out your head . it's not complicated . it's like i'm using a computer made in china, with American chips inside , china to carry on selling the computers decided not to tax the chips as it would make my laptop more expensive .

Oh, so you're back to posting things that belong to others and not attributing it to them. Not your list. Trump's list. 55555

You quote me, and then claim that I posted something else. The reading comprehension issue again. That's your way.

International trade provides a choice. Americans had choices before the tariffs, and they have choices after the tariffs. I never said that the US did not import any of those products. I stated that if the tariff causes their price to move higher, as it almost certainly will, Americans will probably buy less of the imported product and buy what is produced in America. I further stated that the tariffs will allow consumers to choose based on value, need and whether or not the higher price is worth it to buy an imported good. If not, they won't buy it.

Unless of course there is not an American substitute, or the US product incorporates, an imported part. Then the consumer just has to pay more. But the tax cuts will cover that, right.

here we go

https://youtu.be/5scez5dqtAc

papafarang wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 5:18 pm

here we go

https://youtu.be/5scez5dqtAc

Trump and his base don't believe or care about this issue, move on.

newtovillagelife wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 5:25 pm

papafarang wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 5:18 pm

here we go

https://youtu.be/5scez5dqtAc

Trump and his base don't believe or care about this issue, move on.

no mate you got to watch it , hilarious stuff .posted to help some people understand how ridiculous Trump is . it's 20 mins long but well worth a chuckle , manages to combine bad economics, climate change and Trump making a fool of himself all in one

newtovillagelife wrote: ↑

September 6, 2018, 5:25 pm

Trump and his base don't believe or care about this issue, move on.

There are people all over the world and in every country who aren't buying into the hoax known as MMCC.

One little interesting bit from the river Spey in Scotland. Water temperatures have been recorded daily for the salmon fishing for the last 100 years. Average temperatures are now 3 degrees centigrade higher than when they started .....

And the hits just keep coming!

I have one question, why are the MISTAKES always exaggerations of the bad things that will happen? Why aren't any of the mistakes in favor of things NOT being as serious as they claim?


https://www.nationalreview.com/news/cli ... ing-study/

“The findings of the . . . paper were peer reviewed and published in the world’s premier scientific journal and were given wide coverage in the English-speaking media,” Lewis wrote in a critique of the paper. “Despite this, a quick review of the first page of the paper was sufficient to raise doubts as to the accuracy of its results.”

After correcting their mistake, Keeling said their research indicates oceans are warming only slightly faster than previously thought, not dramatically faster as they initially reported.

It will always be difficult for Believers to gain any traction as long as errors like this are repeatedly exposed that show that the models are not accurate. The predictions of gloom always reach their deadline without the predicted effect.

Well, the sea is warming, and sea level is going up. Surprisingly as more data is gathered models are predicting that the estimates of even 10 years ago are far to low. This is from Wikipedia -

At least since 1880, the average global sea level has been rising, with about an 18 cm (7.1 in) rise from 1897 to 1997.[1] More precise satellite based data show about a 7.5 cm (3.0 in) accelerating rise in sea level from 1993 to 2017.[2]:1554 This is due mostly to anthropogenic global warming that is driving the thermal expansion of seawater while melting land-based ice sheets and glaciers.[3] This trend is expected to accelerate during the 21st century.[4]:62

Projecting future sea level has always been challenging, due to our imperfect understanding of many aspects of the climate system. As climate research leads to improved computer models, projections have consistently increased. For example, in 2007 the high end of Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) projections through 2099 was less than 2 feet (0.61 m),[5] but in their 2014 report the high end was considered to be about 3 feet (0.91 m).[6] A number of later studies have concluded that 2.0 to 2.7 metres (6 ft 7 in to 8 ft 10 in) rise this century is "physically plausible".[7] The contributions to sea level rise since 1993, based on 2018 figures, divide into ocean thermal expansion (42%), melting of temperate glaciers (21%), Greenland (15%) and Antarctica (8%).[2]