beer monkey wrote:i think this was just a copy and paste of something that's doing the rounds on the Net.

Yes, you are right, I recieved it as a forwarded e-mail. How much of it is true, I don't know. I thought that even if 50% of it was true, it was worth a post. I think quite a bit of it is true though. What is 100% true, is that in the sixty short years that Israel has been a country, it has created a successful democracy and economy out of an arrid piece of desert. And for sixty years people have been trying to take it from the Israelis or anihilate them.
It's difficult for me to keep an objective point of view. I did for many years; forgive, forget, move on. The Jews are the most persecuted people in the history of the world. I grew up listening to stories of enslavement, slaughter.
My grandmother watched her brothers head get lopped off during a pogrom in Russia. My family lost members in the holocaust. I lost a friend in 911. I experienced anti-semetism growing up, and I still to this day hear the word "Jew" being used as a derogatory slang term.
I'm not looking for any sympathy here. The point is, I think many people, myself included, have had it. We're tired of it, I'm tired of it! And, I've always considered myself a peaceful type of guy, I marched for peace and civil rights in the '60's.
I don't know how many people remember the movie "Network"? There came a point in the movie, when Albert Finney's character, a newscaster, was on a rant about the evils and injustices of the world, and he started screaming, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore", and he urged people all across the the U.S. to open their windows and yell out the same thing, which the movie portrayed people as doing. I think that kind of sums up where a lot of people are at these days, myself included.
Say or think what you want about Israel, but at least they're tolerant of all religions. Remember a few years back when the Taliban blew up those beautiful statues of the Buddha that were carved into the mountain? Well, what can I say about that?

The jewish people as a race has always consisted of some of the most talented people on the earth ,whether it be the arts ,business,desughn or the sciences then i think it fair to say the jewish people have always been at the forfront off inovation and creativity. They are a family loving close knit population who take care of there own . Why is it then that this people who in effect have contributed so much to the development of both the ancient and the modern world carry the handle of being the most persicuted nation on earth ? Forget abnout the god old testament bit and his words saying they would be the most villified nation, why has it happened . when did there persicution begin and why ? This is a genuine question from my point of view, maybe one of the obvious jewish historians we have would care to giv e me a history lesson . From a personal point of view I do not belive that the state of Isreal has ever shown much compasion or mercy to its neirbours . in fact from the jewish people I know I often cannot see them as even the same nation or people . Or let me put it like this , I new a Jewish pilot and he was the only one who showed the blood and guts attack and kill phillosophy .

Jingjai, Marc. For obvious reasons I was particuarly interested in your stats on the airforce, so I've checked on them. Firstly let me say Israel is not forthcoming with detailed information on any of its military capabilities, even the photographing of planes is forbidden, you may remember the imprisonment of a couple of young plane spotters in Israel a few years back.
They do not refer to it as an air force but as Heyl Ha' Avir or Air and Space Arm.The figure you quote for number of F15/16s is more likely to be the total of all planes of all types including helicopters. Last year they purchased 102 F161 to replace the aging A4 skyhawks, a few of these have been retained as jet trainers but none are in operational service.

They also at the same time purchased 12 AH-64D Apache Longbow helicopters.

These would appear to be the only modern additions to its fleet. they do however possess a multitude of various types amongst which is the locally made version of the CM170 Magister.

All this info has been obtained from www.scramble.nl/il.htm a dutch organisation specialising in observing the Israeli flight capability.

It might be useful if your future quotes are attributed if you haven't verified them yourself first.

jingjai wrote:

beer monkey wrote:i think this was just a copy and paste of something that's doing the rounds on the Net.

Yes, you are right, I recieved it as a forwarded e-mail. How much of it is true, I don't know. I thought that even if 50% of it was true, it was worth a post. I think quite a bit of it is true though.

What about "your" free assertion about the alleged French ambassador's declaration? At least, this deserve a public apology unless you can prove it was really said!

I am not a religous scholar but in the course of establishing my own beliefs actively found out all I could about the alternatives available. I was at first puzzled by the apparent persecution of the Jews, not Israelis, until I found some answers on the following website. www.godonthenet/wasblack.htm
It traces the lineage of Jesus who was apparently black and the curse put on all descendants of this line, by God himself.
I will not comment or reply to any postings as the site has all the neccessary links to the bible which should give the answers far better than I am able.

A very interesting and engaging thread. Many viewpoints have been put forth and to great effect.

As for the French statesman's supposed remarks, well God only knows some of the statements that have come out of the mouths of representatives of my country (USA)! But I still think the world of my country and our contributions to humanity. The same can be said of the great nation that is France. All of this nonsence between the 2 countries should stop. Our friendship runs too deep for this sort of sophomoric behavior.

AJ asked for some comments from a Jewish historian and, while I am certainly not that, I am a "historian" of sorts. Or at least that's what my degrees say.

A possible beginning to what we may call anti-semitism can be found in the diaspora. This is when the Roman authorities dispersed the Jewish population throughout the empire creating what we call ghettos. Having been dislodged from their home of Israel/Judah the emergence of Rabbinical Judaism came about in an attempt to preserve their Jewish heritage and to live according to the tenets of their faith in often hostile environments.

It should not be surprising then, in predominantly agrarian societies, they developed the talents they have displayed throughout the centuries (many of them mentioned previously in this post). The Jews were prohibited from owning land in the new societies they had been thrust into. So they took to other occupations such as medicine, banking, and the law. These ocupations, it must be noted, were not the ideal careers in a pre-industrial society. Land was where it was at.

Well imagine then, if your race has been excluded from land ownership throughout its diasporan history how precious actual land would be. Something to consider when we comment on how Israel is defending itself.

A good book to consult for further study on Jewish history is Thomas Cahill's "The Gift Of The Jews." It is a popular history so it makes for a 'good read.' This book is readily available in Asia Books and, maybe, that fine little Nong Kai bookstore someone was kind enough to mention in a previous post.

My position on this topic is clear. I believe in a 2 state solution. The borders should be designed in recognition of historical, economic, and defensive concerns. Until this time I will continue to support Israel's right to defend itself against an enemy that seeks its destruction. But, in support of my main position, Israel must be careful not to be heavyhanded in its response to violence and provocation. There are many moderate Palestinians, and Muslims in the broader Middle East world, who become more and more marginalized when things spiral out of control.

I yearn for a peaceful Palestinian state to emerge so it to can produce scientists, historians, and engineers as well. Before this can happen however, the Muslim (Arab) world must refrain from propagating a culture of hate. The problem isn't the explosives wrapped around a person's torso, the problem is the hatred that is wrapped around their heart.

We can go tit-for-tat on this subject; but, at the end of the day, blind hatred is extremely difficult to combat.

Cheers,

THL

Well i have slated you in the past so feel I have to say thats a pretty damm good post . It was a damm good post. ?I am maybe not quite so much on the jewisahj side with the right to defend as you are but I feel in the end what we would like to see happen is not that much different. What you say about moderates is so true there are many on both sides that the voices of hatred shouold be drowned out ,sad it does not happen . I shall have to go back to my history books when I get some time . I seem to remember that the jewish land and home was Egypt for mkany years untill they eventually left after not being allowed to own lanmd there . The old testament said they where slaves there but I think modern discovery has shown they where a free people who where emplyed . I wont disagree with you on there right to defend if only it stopped at defense . it does not, in previous times it has pn;y stopped when there borders have become bigger and more secure. Not bad for them but I think if I where from palestine I would find it hard to wave a Isrealy flag.

BKKSTAN
"I also believe that most people ,other than believers in extreme Islamism,that protest the actions Of the USA are basically anti USA for various reasons and seem to always join our opposition in protest!"

I think you need look at your belief system if you really believe that . I have to second roadman ,what a load of rubbish , its interestiing though we have now reached the state where if we say anything against the usa we are anti american and if we say anything against the jewish state we are anti semetic. There is much wtong with the good old Usa and there is much wrong in the state of Isreal . neither are perfect , both are far from it . I would personally hate to live in either place . I guess the Usa is ok if your educated and rich ,we dont hear a lot about its getos and slums but sadly they do exist. The state of Isreal whilst havig the right to defend its self takes its defence to extreme and lacks the kind of compassion that I dare say it would have liked to have applied to itself in the days of the holocoust . Both are sometimes right and often wrong , at the m,oment there actions on most fronts are doing little to make the wrld a more peacfull place. You can argue that well if we win the world will be more peacfull but in truth I dont thinlk any conquered nation ever forgets te fact that it was conquered. Im british and proud of the fact but it has never stopped me looking at our history and saying what a bloody nation we have been in the past. Damm shame both the usa and Isreal cannot do the same . Men have killed each other throughout history for what . land and riches. nothing changes. you can wrap it up in attacks and right to defend but men in power are still the same , killers. because I dont always agree with a countries poliicy or actions does not make me anti the country .,if anyone thinks that it does then I think that trully makes them a bigot who can not bear anyone findoig any kind of fault in there system. Again the interesting thing is that fold who are american or jewish get up in arms but the countries themselfes and politicians dont give a damm , they will do what they want if they can get away with it. question comes to mind is do they really deserve the defence there own peolple put up for them.?

AJ, yes we have probably found ourselves on the opposite side of a debate now and then. But thank you for your kind words.

I meant not to take a political position but, rather, to provide some historical perspective as that was asked, by you I believe, earlier in the thread.

Please do not confuse me with the right however. Certainly not as a neo-con, and as such you did not brand me, so do not think my sentiments lie there. In fact the Jewish lobby, in my country, has always been associated with the left, in fact mostly with the ultra-left. The ACLU is prime example of that.

I simply believe, in the strongest terms, of Israel's right to exist. Now, as stated in my previous post, I feel (at times) Israel's response to certain aggresions (not all) has been beyond the pale. I feel this can be counter-productive to their wish of a peaceful homeland as it can marginalize moderate Muslims, who hold the same desire, and give broader licence to those such as Hezbollah & Hamas (among others).

My wish for moderation on the part of Israel should in no way be seen as diminishing my condemnation of the actions of groups, and now governments, such as Hamas & Hezbollah. It is the stated goals of these groups to bring about the demise of Israel. I condemn this without regret!

How would any of our home nations react, or respond, if it had a neighbor with similar intentions as this?

But, at the end of the day, I respect all the opinions stated!

Cheers

THL

Papy Ion wrote:

jingjai wrote:

beer monkey wrote:i think this was just a copy and paste of something that's doing the rounds on the Net.

Yes, you are right, I recieved it as a forwarded e-mail. How much of it is true, I don't know. I thought that even if 50% of it was true, it was worth a post. I think quite a bit of it is true though.

What about "your" free assertion about the alleged French ambassador's declaration? At least, this deserve a public apology unless you can prove it was really said!

Jingjai has apparently reappeared today, but he seems to have decided to ignore my previous post. How sincere are you, Jingjai?

I would have appreciated a few words of apology, something like: "I am sorry to have been so credulous and to have propagated this stupid rumor regarding a French ambassador, and you can trust me to explain that also to the person who sent me this message in the first place".

Yes, I know... I am a dreamer...

Hey Papy,why are you so demanding for apologies about anything said on the forum that is not directed at you personally?

And for myself,I am still waiting for you to ask specific questions to me,that you wanted answered!

BKKSTAN wrote:Hey Papy,why are you so demanding for apologies about anything said on the forum that is not directed at you personally?

And for myself,I am still waiting for you to ask specific questions to me,that you wanted answered!

For the specific questions, you only have to read again the other topic (US Middle Est policy debate 2) and you should be able to find what they are. You know: they usually are sentences ended with a question mark. For instance:

- Do you think that France, Russia, China, and maybe other countries should unite to impose their way by force to this

Papy Ion wrote:

BKKSTAN wrote:Hey Papy,why are you so demanding for apologies about anything said on the forum that is not directed at you personally?

And for myself,I am still waiting for you to ask specific questions to me,that you wanted answered!

For the specific questions, you only have to read again the other topic (US Middle Est policy debate 2) and you should be able to find what they are. You know: they usually are sentences ended with a question mark. For instance:

- Do you think that France, Russia, China, and maybe other countries should unite to impose their way by force to this

BkkStan, you really need to learn how to quote correctly (see how I do myself in the other thread, for instance) and to read again all my previous posts in the appropriate topic. I don't want to repeat myself and to lose time with you about this subject. And I've already said that I do not want to participate anymore in this debate (obviously, you cannot read my posts attentively enough, because if it was the case, you would know in which context my questions and remarks were asked and made...). For instance, you would have known that I was speaking only about Iraq and why I mentioned the Holy Bible! Please, read again all my posts and you should be able to understand my logic (if you really want to understand, of course). As my point is made, I won't argue anymore. You already have admitted that your country went war on the basis of bad intelligence reports and you can not prove that there is a single link between the 9/11 events and the former Iraqi leader. It was not a legitimate war (no UN resolution approving it) and if your country had waited a few months more, as Hans Blix said, it would have been informed that there were no WMD in Irak (again, it is already written in the other thread).

I am not pro nor anti America, Israel or any country, I am just pro or anti (or don't have any clear opinion at times) regarding certain decisions. For instance, I did not approve some decisions made by my own government, but I can hardly be considered as an anti-France because of that! If you really want to know, I do believe that the current process that takes place in the UN about Lebanon and Israel is what should be done usually (but more efficiently) in case of divergences between nations...

As far as I know, you are not Jingjai, and I did not write myself any "sh...tty" post about an US representative. What you perceive as anti-Americanism from my part is only a feeling (that is not justified according to me), and I did not write something comparable, presented as a "fact" in a public forum, and which is clearly wrong and insulting. Again, it is the difference between "beliefs" and "proven facts".

Anyway, I didn't ask you something more, BkkStan, I am dealing with our sincere member, Jingjai, so, I would ask you not to interfere again on that matter, BkkStan! Thanks in advance...

=D> =D> =D>

Artfully dodged,Papy!I assume Val is clapping for you.If you only want comments by a particular member,why don't you PM them?

BKKSTAN wrote:Artfully dodged,Papy!I assume Val is clapping for you.If you only want comments by a particular member,why don't you PM them?

Only because I did not think it was necessary (I have been waited to let Jingjai enough time and the opportunity to react to my first post about the clarification that I requested), but I will probably send him a private message soon if needed.

Anyway, I did not dodge anything. You just have to read correctly the other thread and you will see who really dodges when asked about proven facts... You intervene when not asked, but still have difficulties to answer honestly on certain matters. Ma๏ pen ra๏. This is not the subject here! It is not enough that I let you have the last word in the other thread, you are using my legitimate request to restart a discussion about a topic where my point has already been made and where I have already explained that I would not participate anymore... So, don't feel the need to answer here or elsewhere about this subject as I will ignore your reply unless you demonstrate that you are able to read and understand correctly what others write.

Do you think we could possibly drop this subject now.

I believe The Forum is intended to be for the sharing of ideas and information, for the research of information and Ok maybe some debating of the odd contentious issue; and I do realise that some members like vigorous and healthy debates, but it is important to avoid these becoming personal or unduly pursuing/harassing members.

We want members to feel free and comfortable to freely participate in the Forum, rather than to feel they are going to be pursued if they say something that may turn out to be inappropriate.

If I may quote:

beer monkey wrote:

i think this was just a copy and paste of something that's doing the rounds on the Net.

jingjai wrote:

Yes, you are right, I recieved it as a forwarded e-mail. How much of it is true, I don't know. I thought that even if 50% of it was true, it was worth a post. I think quite a bit of it is true though.

I don't think JJ is an active daily poster. Though he has made posts since Papy's earlier requests for an apology/explanation. JJ has responded as above and I would suggest that's as much as an admission from him as you're going to get. I guess with the benefit of hindsight he realises that maybe it wasn't the most responsible piece of "reporting"(?). Can't we leave it that, and move on, please?

We want other members and newbies to see this as a happy friendly site.

Arjay, as you probably noticed, I have waited (more than 4 days) to see that Jingjai has posted something new in this forum before writing that I would have liked that he did not ignore my request for a clarification regarding the alleged declaration of a French ambassador. Don't forget that it was the main point of his post, and that this part is written in capital letters. It was not exactly a "friendly" remark, was it?

Anyway, I will show that I can be friendlier than some people may think I am and I won't request this clarification from our sincere member anymore... Ma๏ pen ra๏! I will consider all this story as a "honest mistake". At least, nobody was killed because of this one!

Papy, All points understood and agreed.