I would like to post my agreement with this letter to the Nation

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Despite its missteps, the US does plenty of good

As viewed through the prism of John Francis Lee of Chiang Rai ["The US is in no position to talk about democracy", Letters, October 1], democracy as we know it in the United States is dead. Why do I smell a transparent Bush hater with an agenda that has nothing to do with democracy. He cleverly cites some mistaken foreign policy adventures of long ago that were at times misguided, but always opted for the lesser of two evils. One could argue these points forever, but to say that the United States has or is "slaughtering millions in Asia and thousands in the Middle East" is disingenuous at best and an outright lie at worst.

Thanks to the United States, hundreds more millions were liberated from the yoke of Japanese oppression (Thailand included) and the Nazi boot. Through the force of an iron will, she has protected those same people for decades. We, both as a government and as private donors, contribute to the welfare of this world in countless ways. I am so proud of the country that I call mine and will defend her both in word and deed. This is the country that is the very first to send her ships, sailors, soldiers and airmen into disaster areas worldwide to help those unable to help themselves. Who was there in Indonesia after the tsunami with hospital ships, doctors, food, water and 24-hour aid without one expectation of even a thank you? Who sent helicopters with housing, medical help, food and transport into the mountains of Pakistan after a devastating earthquake?

Who spends more on the eradication, search for a cure and education regarding HIV in Africa than all other countries in the world combined. Who led the coalition to save Muslims in the Balkans? Who cured polio? The list is endless and it does not exclude anyone. Irrespective of Lee's invective, we all vote and those votes are counted. I'll take democracy any day, and speaking out truthfully on its behalf is a duty we all share. Try that in China and see how far it gets you.

Richard Rees

Hua Hin

Whilst not wishing to disagree with the general thesis , I will add ,so do many other countries including my own , Great Britain.
I will question however the paragraph "Thanks to the US, hundreds if not millions were liberated from the yoke of Japanese oppression(Thailand included) and the nazi boot" That sounds like a line from a John Wayne movie, and totally ignores the sacrificies and the contribution made by the many allied countries, notable amongst who, were, of course, Great Britain, its many, then commonwealth countries, special mention here to Australia but not detracting in any way from the rest of the member countries.Please remember it is still a very sore point with most Brits that the US left us alone for two years to fight the nazi threat, from 1939-41 before you were FORCED to join in by the Japanese bombing of Pearl harbour. Without that you just might have stayed on the sidelines many believe. I am also very interested in the special reference"Thailand included" Can I know where and when US forces were engaged here? I have made a special study of the 'Death Railway" and its associated conflicts and the only US involvement I can find is a report of an American ship being sunk off Singapore and the crew being transferred from Changi jail along with the mainly British prisoners, to Thailand to work. The war cemetries here in Thailand and Burma do not contain any dead from the US and the only record is of 26 bodies being returned to the States at the war end. The graves here are mainly Brits, Australians and many Dutch.
This is not meant to be an argumentive posting , just a straightening of the facts. This is not a script from a Hollywood movie, but a view of real life, the evidence of which can be seen in the row after row of memorial plaques in the photos in my Udonmap album.

Are you inviting "debate" then?

arjay wrote:Are you inviting "debate" then?

I suspect it might be now

I would be more comfortable with views and opinions!

I only asked if you were inviting debate, as the letter had been posted under the "General Debates" Forum.

It looks like you have indeed now got some "views and opinions", - which is good.

I am sure the writer of the letter was seeking to make the point that America has not been engaged in the killing of millions, but indeed had been involved in the liberation of millions. (Assuming the numbers do/would have extended to millions)

I like the old Jonn Wayne patriotric movies,even if the more fiction than fact!
I took the letter as a defense of the USA,even with its many mistakes,as a general ''good guy'' is the defence of democracy!
I agree that it ignores the contributions of many other nations,but I don't think that the was the intention since the focus was on reply to an anti-USA letter regarding the slaughtering of millions of Asians and thousands in the Middle East as if that was the intent of US policies!
My position of being in agreement with the submission relates to my feelings about those that criticize the US by going back through history and picking out the sometimes obvious foreign policy ''mistakes'',using them to argue that we are some kind of evil empire!
Every country,every leader indeed every person has made mistakes in judgements.One can say that none of those are referred to when criticizing the US!
Another thought provoked by this article,is that whether or not the timing was right,the fact that the USA with its many resources have in fact saved millions of lives,that many Nations would be a lot worse off without our sacrifices!And that many of those that are so quick to brand the USA as evil,actually owe their freedom and possibly their existance to the USA!

Hey Stan. I'm going have to watch myself I am starting to agree with you, must be mellowing in my old age.
Whilst I found the content of the letter to be a little self effacing, I agree that the concept was correct, I would rather have your nation with us then agin, as I'm sure you would with us.God bless America and long may Brittania rule the waves.

Hooray We will toast that Saturday Bowing to my elder the forst one is on you

BKKSTAN wrote: Hooray We will toast that Saturday Bowing to my elder the forst one is on you

I take that to mean all subsequent rounds are yours then

There you go,starting a debate again You missed the ''Boontling term ''forst''!My definition of ''forst'' is the first four

It has become second nature for me to read forum posts and automatically in my head allow for mispellings that I didn't realise this one was deliberate on your part By the way. What does your dog prefer, Leo or Chang?If its just water you don't have to name Singha Light.

The fact of the matter is these are the "salad days" for many countries once under the threat of communism. No longer does much of western Europe have to look to the US for protection. Their economy is in a relative boom period through the auspices of the EU and now views itself as a competitor, rather than a strategic partner, with the US.

So the anti-american attitude should not be seen as surprising. Europe, now able to stand on it's own two feet, is not likely to bestow credit on the US for providing it the time necessary to recover.

Many Americans view this pan-european attitude as selfish and ungreatful. But I feel it is refreshing that Europe, after a long time & several mis-steps, has finally taken off its training wheels and decided to take ownership of their situation. This should alleviate a major financial burden for the US taxpayer as it was not cheap propping up a large portion of the European continent.

So here! here! to the reemergence of Europe. And as each nation, unto itself, is relatively weak, there is no possibility of them plunging the globe into another world war. Good news!

And though Val is correct in stating there are few Americans to be found in the River Kwae burial ground, he may try visiting a European burial ground. Quite a few US boys lying there Val.

But that's okay because we in the US know the value, and the cost, of liberty and freedom. And should the need arise again, possibly when the Russian bear becomes avaricious, we will be there for you Europe.

Cheers,
THL

"But that's okay because we in the US know the value, and the cost, of liberty and freedom. And should the need arise again, possibly when the Russian bear becomes avaricious, we will be there for you Europe."

Somewhere, in the back of my old memory, I think there was a history teacher that told me that the FRENCH liberated America from the British????!!!!
Something to think about no? How things can change!!!!

Sure THL, I wasn't doubting the USA 's involvement, I was merely querying the statement made of liberating Thailand. I have been to most of the war cemetries around Europe and your right, a considerable number of Americans are listed as dying there, but you may not be aware, few are buried there because it was official US policy that all bodies should be shipped back to the States at the end of the war. So a head count from gravestones would give a very false impression but each cemetry has an official list of dead from each country which is available on request. If any one wants to see it though they would be advised to ring the superintendant of the particular cemetry to make sure someone is there to open it for you.It is unfortunately neccessary to keep it locked for the reason, many of the younger generation do not respect the sanctity of the place and write many unappropiate messages therein.Plus with the passing of time these places don't get many visitors now so all superintendants are now employed on a part time basis.

Val that is a wonderful point. I just recently visited the gravesite on the Kwai and was somewhat surprised at the lack of US tombstones. I wonder if the same policy applied here as well. Anyway, thanks for that information. Having lost 3 uncles in WWII, uncles I never had a chance to meet, I wonder if Euro's truly appreciate the sacrifice that we Americans have made to their freedom.

Cookie, sadly you were misled by your history teacher. Though it is a common mistake that has made itself into various history books. The French involvement, while valuable, did not prove decisive, or for that matter all that important. The main objective of the Continental Army was to place itself between British troops and the Continental Congress. Washington needed to fight a war in which he suffered no decisive loss. That is, where the Continental Army had to surrender. This is why you do not read or here of many critical battles from the Revolutionary War. This is not to say there were not critical military events. In the end, the main objective was to keep the Continental Congress alive as a political body. This was an objective met almost exclusively through the astute leadership of Washington as he led his army past some perilous moments. So Cookie, while your memory may be old, there is still time for adequate research. Do not let yourself be guided by all those things you learned so long ago. Though keep close those things taught to you by your parents as they are the most valuable lessons.

This is not to diminish the involvement of the French. Well I guess in the eyes of your Cookies teacher it would. I'm assuming this was high school or a lesser grade that you received this information. I too was told of Lafayette. I'm quite positive this information was not deceminated at the University level. Still the French did provide assistance in the way of finances and otherwise occupying the British in endevours elsewhere. In many ways the financial assistance provided, at a time of great economic distress, can be seen as a prelude to the French Revolution. But that is another story.

Cheers,
THL

Having just read my previous post I hasten to make a correction. I mistakenly wrote "we Americans." I have never served in the armed services and nobody owes their freedom to me. In fact I am indebted to all those brave soldiers who have allowed me to live live a life of relative leisure. And I should have not limited it to Americans. So many British and French resistance forces need to be included as well.

THL

In his book, Prisoners of the Japanese, Gavan Daws states that of total railroad deaths (Siam-Burma Railway) 6318 were British, 2815 Australian, 132 American and 2490 Dutch. The nationality of the rest is unknown.

In gross terms, about 1 in 3 British died, about 1 in 4 Australians, about 1 in 5 Americans, and about 1 in 6 Dutch.

It was the luck of the draw, no Americans died of Cholera simply because they were sent to areas where Cholera was not endemic.

The Americans were mainly fron the USS Houston and the 131st Field Artillery.

I think that at Kanchantaburi war cemetery on the far left there are the graves of some American aircrew.

John

Thank you John for those statistics, other writers and the now renamed Commonwealth War Graves Commission have others. However my point of reply was not to question them, whatever the true figures are, they are horrific and do not include the estimated 100,000 Asians found murdered in mass graves as recently as 1998. I am really posting in case any one is thinking of going to Kanchanaburi to pay respects that there are two war cemetries there. One , the most widely known and visited is on the main Sang Sheuto road not far from the town centre. this is land donated by the people of Thailand after the war to the Commonwealth Commission and has the same status as the embassy, ie a part of Great Britain in Thailand.The Union Jack is raised and lowered daily.The other possibly less known cemetry but certainly more appropiate is at Chungkhai just over the river Kwai. This was the site of the prison hospital where many thousands of all nationalities lost their personal battle with the disease and malnutrition inflicted upon them by their inhuman captors.This cemetry is laid out like an English garden with many rose bushes and other flowers to enhance its peaceful setting alongside the river.To my mind a more fitting tribute than the hoards of tourist buses descending on the other one.
Not forgetting in all conflicts there are two sides and two sets of casualties.
If anyone is interested, the Japanese war dead are commemorated in their own cemetry which is located a short walk from the river Kwai bridge back towards town. It is normally kept locked but straight across the road is a noodle shop and the proprietor has the keys and its her job to keep the place tidy.She's a lovely old lady but never fails to show amazement when a farang asks to view.So don't be surprised.

thlboston wrote:Many Americans view this pan-european attitude as selfish and ungreatful. But I feel it is refreshing that Europe, after a long time & several mis-steps, has finally taken off its training wheels and decided to take ownership of their situation. This should alleviate a major financial burden for the US taxpayer as it was not cheap propping up a large portion of the European continent

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I have read and re-read this several times and until now resisted the temptation to respond. I have to ask however is that how Americans generally see the situation and Europe? As a Brit and a European I have to say I find your remarks both arrogant and offensive. I am sure America would not have involved itself had there been no self-interest whatsoever.