Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

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arjay
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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by arjay » September 11, 2015, 10:26 pm

In the same way that a hotel (Guest House, Mansion etc) is required to notify local police or Immigration authorities (within 24 hours) when a foreigner stays at the hotel, I understand that a private house owner has a similar legal obligation. Am I right in thinking that that has to be done by the house owner, as opposed to the land owner (which may or may not be the same person)? In which case, as I (a foreigner) am the house owner, though not the land owner, does that obligation fall upon me? I am first named in the tabian bahn (yellow) house book. (It is a house book, isn't it, and not a land book!?)

Is there a special form to make the notification on? I understand it can be done either at Immigration or a local police station.



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12345
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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by 12345 » September 11, 2015, 10:50 pm

If you personally are listed as the owner, then yes, your responsibility. Though would think who ever is listed in the Blue home book, a Thai presumably, it may fall on their responsibility.

HINT........ when reporting, and yes there is a special form for that, and should be no fee involved, I think. Back to the HINT..........they moved in that day, as supposed to be done within 24 hrs, to avoid the 1000 baht fine, I think, for not reporting in a timely manner.

Also, if a lease is to be registered at land office, rare, and nobody cares, but, if doing so, make it for a short indefinite period, continuing month to month. I believe leases less than 3 yrs don't have to be registered, and mandatory after 3 years, or used to be, possibly not current info. Reason to keep it short, is they will collect tax on lease, 'in advance', so 3 years worth, and why locals, avoid the place like the plague, for registering leases, unless necessary.

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by waanjai » September 11, 2015, 11:00 pm

The relevant legal clause for this is the following:

Notification of residence of foreigners for businesses ::
"Notification of residence of foreigners for businesses
According to section 38 of the 1979 immigration act, "House owners, heads of household, landlords or managers of hotels who accommodate foreign nationals on a temporary basis who stay in the kingdom legally, must notify the local immigration authorities within 24 hours from the time of arrival of the foreign national." If there is no immigration office in the province or locality of the respective house or hotel, the notification is made to the local police station. In Bangkok the notification is made to the Immigration Bureau. The notification of residence of foreign nationals is made by the manager of licensed hotels according to the hotel act, owners of guesthouses, mansions, apartments and rented houses using the form TM. 30.
The notification of residence of foreign nationals within 24 hours can be made in a number of ways to make the notification as convenient as possible"
http://www.immigration.go.th/

The legal base is pretty old already - 1979 - but various immigration offices have started to enforce it on recommendation by the Bangkok headquarters.

But first, Yes, You are most probably the house owner or a 50:50 owner. When there is a blue tabien baan, then the person targeted would be the Thai owner first.
Second, the yellow house-book is a house book not a land-book.
Third, Tm30 is the form to be used.

There is still a lot of opposition against it - insofar private house-owners are concerned. Arguments are: If a newly married Thai-Farang couple resides in the house of the parents of the Thai wife during holidays, will the Thai parents notify Immigration of the stay of the alien husband? Of course not.
If the Thai-Farang couple has an own house, will the Thai wife have to notify Immigration within 24 hours after returning from a journey back to the farangs homeland? God, who would demand such an action?

Well, some immigration offices do. In response to their demand most aliens remind the immigraton about the fact that their Thai wifes are not sheltering their husbands in form of a business and that a Thai-Farang marriage is not a business per se. :D And that it is all titled with:

:: Notification of residence of foreigners for businesses ::

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by 12345 » September 11, 2015, 11:19 pm

Wives 'MUST' notify immigration of husband / boyfriend if living at their house. Even if they are already listed in their own yellow book.

This from personal experience. It is the law, but not strictly enforced.....unless ......well, nuff said.

Technically / legally, and the law, every night of your stay in the 'kingdom' is supposed to be registered with immigration. You're only responsibility is to tell them where you are staying when you enter, or used to be and a line on the arrival card, I think. May have done away with that.

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by arjay » September 11, 2015, 11:47 pm

Thank you for that Waanjai, - hmm, interesting.

It is the case that earlier this year, immigration did a leaflet drop in our "moobahn" in Nong Khai, reminding houseowners of that obligation. Most foreigners in the moobahn live with their Thai wives and it is therefore relatively straight-forward for the Thai wife to notify the arrival of their non Thai husband. I live with my non-Thai wife.

I am currently back in blighty and am concerned as to what action I should take when I next visit my house in Nong Khai. The house is in my sole name. I am the house owner and I am in the yellow book. The Land is owned by a Thai person who does not live locally and is not on/in a blue book for our house. When I am at the property I am there with my non-Thai wife & family. Thus theoretically, I expect there is an obligation to notify both our arrivals.

I can see me running into problems with Immigration saying: "No, no, your Thai wife or Thai owner has to notify & sign", and me then getting into a situation, - firstly pointing out that my wife isn't Thai, and then insisting that there is no Thai house owner, that I am the owner, to which I suspect they would then ask who is in the blue book. There isn't one currently. As stated the land and only the land, is owned by a Thai, who doesn't live locally and whom I would not want to involve in the situation.

(I don't want to stay in a hotel and only visit my house during the day time!!)

I note your quote was under the heading; "Notification of residence of foreigners for businesses". Well this is a residential house, no business is run from it and only myself, wife and family live there!

I am thinking that I should go and notify myself and see what happens!!

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by waanjai » September 12, 2015, 12:39 am

There are many good reasons why a non-Thai person registered by the Amphoe in a Yellow Housebook would like to not involve the Thai person that is registered in a Blue Housebook. BTW: Blue Tabien Baan are only issued for houses too. "Landbooks" would be land titles like chanods etc.

Well, many are taking the position that the Thai Law - the "1979 immigration act" - is primarily addressing the Thai population - as many laws do in various countries in addressing their respective citizens. So bringing the Thai person into the equation is part of the opposition to the start to implement a law that is 35 years old and does not take into account the realities that emerged during all these years. E.g. Farang-owned houses, Houses owned by Thai-Farang couples. This is new as some 35 years ago everything was Thai-owned.

We - in Udon - did not get letters from the Immigration distributed in moobaans. But instead had two seminars with the Immigration office people in Udon. In which they voiced their interest to get the Tm30-system expanded to the private sector (expanding beyond the business sector). There was and is much opposition and resistance to their attempt. And until now they did not complain about not receiving e.g. a Tm30 notification after a week holidays in Samui when we came for the next 90-days notification.

If I have monitored the developments so far correctly, the only clear situations for the requested 24h-notifications seem to be:
a. the situation in which the Thai-wife is renting out a house/room to a Farang for money: Business!
b. new "long-time holiday-makers" that arrive in Udon and want to buy a motorcycle or car in their own name and have therefore to ask for a residence certification from Immigration soon.
The rest try to avoid to go to Immigration other than for the 90-days-notifications and the extensions of stay.

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by arjay » September 12, 2015, 3:30 am

Thank you very much for that.

I think I know how I shall play it.

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by udonman » September 12, 2015, 3:54 am

I've been here for the best part of 20 years and heard about this last year so the wife went and registered my name at immigration.
Question! Does this have to be renewed every year?

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by Khun Paul » September 12, 2015, 6:29 am

Interesting point raised, I have a friend who on his 90 day report ha to produce a yellow book to show he was registered. That maybe because he has moved condos since the last report or that he has had two or more addresses in the last couple of years. I do not know. That being said I always assumed those whose name is in the blue book had to registere the owner, if as one poster has said there is no blue book then there may well be problems, how there is no blue book makes me think about the legality of the house / land. that is another problem to which I have no answer. A yellow book is now almost a must for most people staying here for any length of time ( over 2-3 years ) opens so many doors and allows you to do so much more yourself without having to take a Thai national along.
As for money for leases, I am into a 2nd decade of my lease and to my knowledge no tax has ever been paid by my ex-wife, anyway she is no longer in the country so that's that .

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by FrazeeDK » September 12, 2015, 12:37 pm

hmm.. for our last retirement extension I provided my yellow book as proof of residence.. So, that should be "in the system" so I shouldn't imagine they'd ever ask me for my yellow book for a 90 day visit..
Dave

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by arjay » September 12, 2015, 1:52 pm

Note that my OP was about the "house owner" notifying Immigration or local police that a foreigner was staying at the property. It was not about foreigners confirming/reporting their address every 90 days (for the latter I have never been asked to show a yellow book).

The point is that a house can be owned by a foreigner, whereas land cannot. The Immigration law seems to expect that the house owner is Thai. And the law refers to the house owner, not the land owner, doing the notifying. (Thus I ponder, do I, as the house owner, notify that I have arrived at, and am staying at, the [my] house?!)

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by waanjai » September 12, 2015, 6:10 pm

udonman wrote:...Question! Does this have to be renewed every year?
Not every year but every time You stay in another province than Udon Thani for longer than 24 hours.

I give You an example. You make a holiday trip to 3 other places in Thailand.
1. First stay would be in Chiang Mai. You stay there in a hotel for 3 nights. The 24-hours-notification of Immigration is being done wih tm30 by the hotel itself. Their business.

2. Second stay would be on Koh Samui for 5 nights. You stay in a hotel. The 24-hours-notification is done by the hotel. Their business. Remember that all hotels ask You for Your passport.

3. Third stay would be with friends in Pattaya who have an own house and let you sleep in their guest-room for 3 nights.
I would assume that they won't do the 24-hours-notification unless being reminded by Pattaya Immmigration that they are obliged to do so.

4. Finally, You safely arrive in Your house in Udon. If You or Your wife would be aware of the legal situation as proclaimed by Udon Immigration You or Your wife might consider to notify Udon Immigration about You returning to Your Udon house using form tm28.

The forms to be used are here:
http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/v ... 97#p436097

If You miss to make the 24-hours notificationsa Yourself the situation within the Udon Thani database will look like as follows. When You come to them for your "normal" 90-days reporting or notification and if they would look into their computer they will see that You were in Chiang Mai and Koh Samui. But would not have a clue since when You are back in Udon.

In a country under martial law many Immigration offices in Thailand might be interested and willing to be "a real police state" - only for the aliens of course as these do not count much. :-"

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by waanjai » September 12, 2015, 6:25 pm

arjay wrote:(Thus I ponder, do I, as the house owner, notify that I have arrived at, and am staying at, the [my] house?!)
Just two remarks:
1. Dropping letters somewhere in a moobaan is not notifying someone in person - strictly and legally spoken. You weren't there etc.

2. For people like You there might be an alternative to the whole 24-hours-notification apparatus. If your typical movement to Thailand and Your house is that You fly in and directly go to Your house, You might use the Arrival card painstakingly.
See: http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/v ... 97#p436097

Should You ever get in contact with Immigration people in Nongkhai: Don't forget to tell them that when You asked the Immigration officer in Suvarnabhumi whether the tm6 information would suffice for notification of Immigration he said yes. That's what happened many times since we heard about the "new" demands.

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Notification of a foreigner staying at your house

Post by waanjai » September 13, 2015, 6:37 pm

arjay wrote:...It is the case that earlier this year, immigration did a leaflet drop in our "moobahn" in Nong Khai, reminding houseowners of that obligation. Most foreigners in the moobahn live with their Thai wives and it is therefore relatively straight-forward for the Thai wife to notify the arrival of their non Thai husband...
House ownership is currently the key to get the farangs involved.

Most of the time - and especially in farang communities like the ones in Udon Thani - the 24-hours notification "obligation" takes place - if at all - behind the backs of the farangs.
Consider the many farangs living in rented houses or apartments. These have of course predominantly Thai houseowners or landlords that are clearly addressed by section 38 of the 1979 immigration act.

We know from press reports that in the past the Thai houseowners or landlords did not care much about section 38. Let's wait and see whether Immigration Nongkhai succeeds to motivate their local houseowners and landlords. There are first reports that some Thai houseowners try to persuade the farangs to take over their tasks within the 24-hours-notification system. :lol:

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