Stantheman wrote:Surfer,
... Main thing you will need to remember is your daughter will have to take the entrance exam for the major she wants to take and it may only be offered at certain times of the year. She could possibly major in English and minor in business. Recommend she work on her Thai ready/writing now before she goes back. My daughter who came to U.S. in Dec 2004 as an eight grader and now goes to a local university here in Kansas kept up with her Thai language while learning English and is still fluent in Thai and Lao. You might be surprised as to what your daughter remembers once she start using Thai again...

Thanks for the heads-up on the major exam, Stantheman. Agreed about my daughter needing to get back into reading and writing Thai if she's serious about wanting to go to college in Thailand. :-"

BKKSTAN wrote:It just might be that your daughter just wants a ''easier ''life in her education experience,hence Thailand,where very little work is needed...

... getting ''good'' jobs in Thailand is almost impossible unless you are a member of the ''social order'' ...

If it was me ,I would do some indepth communication with her to understand what her problems are that makes her want to leave the USA where her college or University degree will have some advantages for her future.Hopefully get her to see that when she is an adult and responsible for her life,that the decisions she makes now will determine her economic realities later!

I would do my very best to get her to stay in America because if she extends herself socially,she will find more acceptance and equal opportunity in California than she will find in Thailand outside of Immediate family!

Most any Thai that gets a degree outside the country,comes from rich Thai families... )!

Believe me, I've tried to talk to her about the life-changing opportunity she has been enjoying and can continue to do so -- as have her mother and the rest of her family. She's not a stupid girl, but she is stubborn (like her grandfather) and thinks she will do well despite the fact she is going against EVERYONE's advice.

Agreed about the class aspect of getting jobs, especially in Thailand.

Yes, she also wants it easy (takes after her mother, here). She's never, ever pushed herself to achieve anything.

I feel for her. I know she hasn't been happy. It doesn't help that she now has a boyfriend living outside Nong Bua Lamphu.

Roy wrote:Maybe you could appeal to her logic LS. Explain that if she attends RU she has the prospect of working 6 days a week in a relatively low paying job or by toughing it out in the US for another 4 years she will greatly improve her prospects and the world is her oyster. She can still return to Thailand if she chooses, with greatly enhanced earning potential, but she will not be limited to Thailand as she surely would be if she attends RU.

I disagree. Adolescent girls and logic go together like fire and water. Any logical advise will be a waste of time.

Let her do her thing. She is young and has to find out things for herself. Maybe KKU is a better option if she wants to study in Isan, but if she wants to go to another place it's her choice. Kids at this age want to explore the world, travel and have fun. But don't worry too much. If you let them, ... sooner or later they will come back again with lots of stories about the stupid and funny things they did.

''Appealing to her logic'' is not the same as giving advice!Let her explain ''her'' logic and let her tell you her vision of the results of her thinking,her logic,so she can hear herself!

''Let her do her own thing'',but give her full responsibility!Not let her do her own thing,while you continue to support her like a teenager.IF she doesn't want to get an education for econmic purposes,then I believe she should get a job to support her choices because that is reality!

I think you should appeal to ''her'' logic after you have determined what is actually going on with her!Maybe you can support some changes in her life that would help her transit through the problems and feelings she is experiencing now;resettlement to an American area where she might have more social interaction ,a break from regular school with some intense English tutoring to improve learning ability,time in Thailand where she should be expected to support herself with a job etc. etc.

I think ,as parents,many of us patronize the adolescent emotionally trials and growing trials by economicly supporting this myriad of constant changes because it is easier that the job of parenting.Resonsibility can not be avoided in real life,don't let them avoid it during these times.

Love is not always giving them what their heart desires at the moment.Success is always earned,never attained as a gift!

BKKSTAN wrote:''Appealing
to her logic'' is not the same as giving advice!Let her explain ''her''
logic and let her tell you her vision of the results of her
thinking,her logic,so she can hear herself!
''Let her do her own thing'',but give her full responsibility!Not let
her do her own thing,while you continue to support her like a
teenager.IF she doesn't want to get an education for econmic
purposes,then I believe she should get a job to support her choices
because that is reality!
I
Love is not always giving them what their heart desires at the
moment.Success is always earned,never attained as a gift!

Stan. I have abbreviated your quote to answer the points I have found
relevant in my own relationships. The first, logic.
I honestly don't think any teenager. not just Thai, knows the meaning
of this word. I think the last sentence of Surfers recent posting" She
has a boyfriend in...." is the only logic she can see at the moment.
Let her do her own thing! I would call it, teaching her to stand on her
own feet.Admirable sentiments with which I totally agree, but what if
that includes getting pregnant? Can happen. Ever heard a young girl
say" If I have his baby he won't leave me" I have many times in my
counselling work.Always with disastorous consequences.
The last of your sentences about 'love' Man thats my sentiments to a
"T" But sticking to that reasoning cost me my first Thai marriage. It
is a major source of agravation in my present, otherwise very stable
relationship.Any attempt to enforce it is met with " You don't love
him" and he gets what he wants. Now I am not prepared to jeapordise
this marriage by even discussing it . Its them , the mother and child
that will have to live with it , not me.I'll be dead and buried.
Now in case this all seems doom and gloom let me tell you about my
first step daughter. She was four when I came into her life. Young
enough for me to have an influence. I sent her to school in England
from the age of 7. At the age of 23 she graduated from the University
of London with a BA in marketing. Obviously she must have been feeling
the "pull" of Thailand and wanted to come back here to work, so she
did. At first it was difficult finding any, the term ''Over qualified"
was heard many times. It really meant they weren't prepared to pay her
what she was worth.The normal salary offered was based on her age and
yes, gender. This is still a sexually discrimated society. It was no
more than 25k bht a month.Eventually through a contact she was offered
a job as a presenter with MTV, a Thai based music programme, salary
40k.She loved this job but it entailed much partying and socialising
which meant she had a lot of contact with local men. She wasn't
impressed by what she saw, so by her own choice she decided to return
to England. She is still there, now in a happy a relationship and
working with a major oil company as a marketing/promotions manager. Her
salary? An amazing 5k sterling. yes , 280 k bht per month.
So I can say I have won with one out of four step kids in my life.Not a
very high percentage but it can happen.

Logic,I hear you say, that is the problem, if you study thai's as a nation, logic does not feature in their vocabulary, and if it does only in a limited way. By itself it is not a fault just the lack of logic show in their driving, failure to capitalise on their obvous strengths both personally and in the workplace.
They fail consistently to make the most of any business they venture into.

That being said, logic if taught must be taught from an early age, so that the child learns to think for itself, this is lacking in Thai society as those of us who have dabbled in the teaching world here know, children here do not think, those that do succeed, a very small percentage.

It is the Thai pysche that seems to lack logic as a major thought process, if you ask a Thai p[erson to do a job around ypur househe /she will do just that , not seemingly noticing that maybe what they are doing is harming something else.

Something us longtimers know and deal with, but even when it comes to emotional situations, logic is not a thought process that is used, hence the lack of thought in speaking or even actions, like 'If I have his baby he won't leave me' or ' I borrow money he pay ' or other scenarios that maker us wonder if they actually have a brain at all.

One could almost equate many Thais as reluctant teenagers seeking to find their way in life and not quite knowing how to proceed, that may be a generalisation but not too far from the truth I am sure, one has to take a backward step and look at the situation dispassionately and think.

A short story as an example, I runnas you know a small petrol station, however one of the pumps stopped working, reason not known however the electric was ok, so was it the pump or the electrical supply to it.

Instead of providing power from another source to the pump ( a short 5 min job) to ascertain if power supply or pump was the problem we had some 3 hours of checking and lo and behold it was the pump.
Pump man, arrived ( the next day), fixed it, now ok. When i asked why they did not connect a seperate supply, the answer after transalation was , had to make sure electric was not a problem first. When asked why, ne sensible transalated answer was forthcoming. Logic didn't even enter his thoughts at all.
I still have my hair ....just. ,

Life is never simple. If the boyfriend living outside Nong Bua Lamphu is her main attraction for returning to Thailand, there is the chance he may have acquired a girfriend or a wife in her absence.

''Appealing to their logic'',whether they understand the meaning of logic is really irrelevant as it is part of everyones mental processes.The secret is getting them to process themselves not listen to advice of direction and purpose!
I applaud Trubrit for sending his stepdaughter to England where she got a decent education and developed qualities that were overqualified for Thai employment!Henceforth she developed the ability to come to logical conclusions from experiencing attempts at reasonable employment within Thailand,finding it difficult,if not almost impossible,her logical processing and education,gave her the ability to compare and make her choices! =D> =D>

To me,if the OP was to send his daughter to Thailand for her education it would be a travesty!If she wants to come back to Thailand,ultimately that will be her choce,make sure she understands the responsibility she is assuming for HER decision!

To put it into perspective, the world rankings are: Udonthani Rajabhat University #5048; Wichita State University #634; UCSB(Santa Barbara) #56; Chulalongkorn #320. webometrics.info.

Does this include all universities or just the bad ones

webometrics is based on number of hits a university generates on the world wide web, has little to do with excellence except obviously bigger better universities get more hits. So treat its ratings with a degree of scepticism; if you do not publish in English also could screw your ranking. US universities are conspicuous for making 40 of the top 50 universities in the webometrics list (USA - is it that good?). The Times produces a list of 200 best universities in the world, 20 USA ones make top 50, more realistic I think. Chulalongkorn University makes 166 on this list. Sorry Udonthani Rajabhat University does not make it to top 200.

It doesn't help that she now has a boyfriend living outside Nong Bua Lamphu.

rational thinking...........not with hormones involved. obviously her main motivation to return to thailand. i personally would say, local university or none. tough love.............but she'll get a much better education there, as opposed to basically unsupervised, whether legal adult or not, lifestyle of mai pen rai here. i haven't met too many young gals, that aren' raising a child, by themselves, whether here or there. at least there, you'll have a chance to help and guide her, especially after boyfriend finds another.

good luck, think you'll need it.

Surfer,

If your daughter has finished high school in the States she can enroll in the international faculty at one of the top universities in Bangkok that offer international programs. The route is actually a lot easier than the Thai entrance system route and the academic requirements are less stringent than they are for the Thai programs. Graduating from the international programs at one of these universities would look great on her resume and would enhance her job prospects ten-fold.

Obviously the medium of instructions would be English and not Thai (which might help her of her written Thai skills have taken a nose dive in recent years).

Part. I've read your original post and the subsequent discussion, lots of good advice. I had a similar experience with my daughter. it was solved with an intense series of negotiations.

I went through the same trauma with her, except not for the Thai connection. My daughter (American) announced at the age of 16 that she wanted to quit high school and go to Hollywood to be a famous actress. She had already done all the requisite research, i.e. she looked up the cost of a bus ticket from Ohio to Los Angeles. After intense negotiations with me and her cousin, a successful book publisher from New York (who told her graphically "you'll be eating flies"), we convinced her that I would put her through college in a performing arts curriculum where she could prove her acting skills, then go off to Hollywood, and if the acting didn't pan out she would always have the skills to do whatever she wanted in the industry. This appealed to her and she did just that. She did end up in Hollywood doing behind the scenes work as a PA and script supervisor and was somewhat successful at it. But the the boyfriend connection set in, she met a cop from San Fransisco and chucked the whole career idea and moved in with him. After they split up (naturally) she is now a successful graphic artist doing computer videos (this from a kid who told me at age 13 that "computers are stupid").

The bottom line is you've given them wings, now you've got to let them fly on their own, but with some guidance and negotiation. But don't try to dictate. Forget about YOUR idea of what's the best school or what's best for her career. Just concentrate on what she wants to do and facilitate that in the best way possible without compromising her future. And remember that the boyfriend factor overrides any logic, but it too shall pass.

''Appealing to their logic'',whether they understand the meaning of logic is really irrelevant as it is part of everyones mental processes

I concur with that statement adding a little bit, if as in many cases here, due to thew way Thailand works (or doesn't) it does not allow any person to logocal conclusions as there are no mentors.

To process for themselves is something NOT taught in Thai schools, which is what many 'learned p[eople are now shouting about, teach the Thai students to think.
So if the OP is attempting to deter his daughter from moving back to complete her education, talk to her.

rjb: ... her daughter was already at KKU and the son was looking at universities. I asked her why didn't he go to RU here in Udon? Her reply was, if they go there the university is not highly rated in Thai and they would never be able to get a good job in BKK or another place.


parrot: If she has any intention of returning to the US after college and getting a job, the Thai diploma probably won't amount to much (if anything). Thailand may be a great place to come and retire after you've worked a lifetime and earned some money, but it's the pitts for working. Low low wages, long hours, and very narrowly focused job responsibility.

If US college isn't for her, maybe a vocational school in the US would be better than a diploma from Thailand. Another option, let her take a break from school and work in the US (even if it's McD). That worked for our daughter who quickly saw that the road to any sort of reasonable paycheck was a good education. She went back to school on her own and sailed through.


Roy: Maybe you could appeal to her logic LS. Explain that if she attends RU she has the prospect of working 6 days a week in a relatively low paying job or by toughing it out in the US for another 4 years she will greatly improve her prospects and the world is her oyster. She can still return to Thailand if she chooses, with greatly enhanced earning potential, but she will not be limited to Thailand as she surely would be if she attends RU.


jingjai: "scrap the system entirely"

Thanks to all responders. I knew I had a real problem on my hands, but all your input -- even those of you who disagree with each other on courses of action -- your input really underscores the complexities of the problem.

To reply to some of the points raised in the comments above... The KKU International School idea was first brought up by our daughter. After considering it for several months, I've rejected that idea because it is my opinion that Kulthida has no real drive to do anything "internationally." Her desire to go there is built solely on her NOT wanting to do extra work -- like getting to high school level in her Thai reading and writing. If she wants to go to a school where English is the instructional language, better for her to do it here (in the USA)... As for the regular KKU, she's pretty sure she couldn't get in precisely because her Thai is not at HS level.

Most every person that talks to her about Thai vs. US colleges says, rightfully, that she would get a better education in the US and the diploma would be better respected -- even in Thailand. I mean, even her grandparents are telling her this. These are the people who raised her when she was young. They do not have greater than a 6th grade education, themselves. And THEY know... Attending a vocational school or taking some time off and work -- both while in the US -- are worthy ideas and I have now added them to the mix. Lots of advantages with this approach.

A number of you have replied on the "logic" aspect of all this and I must say that I agree more with those of you who observe that teenagers, teenage Thais, and Thai country people in general do not practice it much if at all.

As far as still considering Kulthida going to college in Thailand, my thinking is slowly going from "where can she get a good education and be happy?" to "where is it safe to put her where she will be happy while she hopefully gets it together?"

jingjai: "scrap the system entirely"

Actually, I didn't say exactly that, I referred you to this thread:
http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/s ... 15339.html
I think it is a good thread because many of respondents are teachers, former teachers, and parents.

One thing no one has touched upon is peer pressure. Peer pressure here in Thailand from the majority of her classmates will be to get by and get the degree with as little work as possible. Let's not forget that the majority of Thai educators do not motivate their students. Nor do they encourage their students to use initiative, problem solving skills, or attempt to get the students involved in classroom discussions or discussing among themselves what they are learning in the classroom, outside the classroom. Forget about Thai students being involved in academic extracurricular activities.

While the same could be said of some students in the U.S. The majority of U.S. students are motivated to learn. Many students in the U.S. are involved in academic extracurricular activities.
The teachers in the U.S. do their best to motivate their students. They do their best to encourage students to use initiative, to develop problem solving skills. They serve as facilitators to keep classrooms discussions interesting and lively, also they encourage student to discuss the things they learn in class, outside the classroom.

Since we do have a member of the forum, Bangsean_girl, who "just graduate from the university with the gold honour". Perhaps, she would be willing to share her university experiences with us? I'd be particularly interested if any of her Thai instructors taught the way I just described the way U.S. educators teach. Also, if she or any of her classmates were involved in any academic extracurricular activities?

Interesting point.''peer pressure''!My 17 yr.old daughter,not from this area,has found herself part of a group as she tried to get accepted into her new school last year.They are all non-studiers,different than her.she is under constant pressure to loan her phone to them during class time so they can listen to music,they copy her homework,have ask her dad to pick them up on rainy days,do trips to Udon etc.

She likes another group of girls in her class that are more interested in their academic work and has me take her to school early,ahead of her regular group,so she can socialize with this group and talk about their homework etc.!

She was getting verbal harrassment from the original group for sitting with the new group!

With our slight encouragement,after about a month,she has taken the initiative and broke from the initial group,moving her seat in class on constantly staying with her new group!She has tried stay friendly with the old group,but they chose not to talk to her,which has been uncomfortable,but she has stuck to her guns =D>

The problem is that their are a couple of classes that have outside projects assigned to various groups and one of them was the building of a cardboard house I took over to one of the old groups house last night where they assembled to work on the ''house''!After a couple of hours ,she calls me to come pick her up quickly!

It seems that the girls were not doing any work on the project as the father of of the one whose house they were at ,was doing the whole project while the girls just sat around doing nothing but gossiping and talking about boys and ignoring my daughters presence!

Funny how they slag her ,but want to copy all her work.

She stated to me ,last night,''I think I will just not take part any any of the projects with them anymore ,as we are not learning anything anyway,OK?''

"she can enroll in the international faculty"

She'll need a HS diploma and still have to pass an exam of some sorts to show her English proficiency. If she's deficient in any subjects, she'll have to take remedial courses before she starts full time. Costs much more than Rahjapat and you have to factor in a private apartment, utilities, etc. If she's not motivated, you'd be wasting your money. If she's motivated, she should go to school in the US and get a much better education. MHO

Stan the exact same scenario occurs in practically every Middle and High School in the US also, and probably every other country in the world. It was true when I went to school, when my kids went to school, and is true today, based on the experiences of a good friend with teenagers currently in school. It can hardly serve as an indictment of the Thai school system.