Solar Power

Post by **rjj04** » November 26, 2017, 1:48 pm

JR wrote: ↑
November 26, 2017, 1:04 pm
Mine were 6.800B. But they are 320W.

I have to replace one of my panels. It is in series with two 275/280 watt panels (and three strings in parallel) that have been in use for about four years now. So, they've probably degraded to 270/275 watts or so. Putting a 320 inline with them will drag it's power output down quite a bit. I'd be paying extra for 30 watts or so that would go wasted. But, thanks for the info!!

Glalt
Yes, it's new. URL below. But, I think the quality of the panel is probably pretty low.
https://www.solarshop-th.com/product-pa ... aline-270w
I'm not sure what the shipping cost will be, but I might just take a holiday to Rayong and pick one up on the way back.

Post by **rjj04** » November 26, 2017, 2:02 pm

Can not find the spec online for that panel though.

Post by **glalt** » November 26, 2017, 9:14 pm

After all this time, do you have any recommendations for deep cycle batteries? I'm considering another little larger system. My original batteries are BSB AGM and show no sign of weakness after more than 4 years. The dealer I bought them from has changed to a brand called Transpower. No price yet. Supposed to be nearly identical to BSB. I want to keep the batteries in the house.

Post by **ytrewq** » November 27, 2017, 2:18 am

Highly recommend:

http://kjsolars.com/

Regarding my prior posts: Paperwork still not finished. Supposedly need just 1 more sign-off from Khon Kaen and then an (optional) onsite inspection and a (mandatory) meter change. 3+ months waiting for just that, so far. Jai-yen-yen regarding my guy's contact info because I won't divulge until after all is 100%. Many will/should appreciate that. I absolutely intend to use him to install +8 more panels, but can't do that until after all the current stuff has been 100% approved lest we create paperwork problems.

I share the frustration regarding the government's supposed incentives for home solar adoption. I call "bull----!" based on our experience thus far. It seems PEA makes it difficult unless you use THEM for the install at inflated prices. Totally screws the independent installers such as my guy (his regular job is with PEA, btw). I think they want the independents totally dependent on PEA for gigs and/or don't want to lose their people to moonlighting. It's a graft culture and TiT.

Panels are performing well. Dust is the biggest pain in the a-- limitation. Hence, more panels so we can get close to max inverter output with moderate dust accumulation and other typical environmental conditions. Cleaning with mild soap and water using a sponge-head on an extension handle is on my handyman's monthly visit todo list.

Post by **rjj04** » November 27, 2017, 8:52 am

glalt wrote: ↑
November 26, 2017, 9:14 pm
After all this time, do you have any recommendations for deep cycle batteries?

Well, I'm not sure that my opinion on deep-cycle batteries is of much use. During most of the year I run the grid-tie inverter(s) because I don't have enough power (2,700W) to even meet my daytime use as A/C and fans are on all the time (nothing much left over for the batteries). This year has been so hot at night time that it was only maybe a month ago that I switched off the A/C and started using the off-grid inverter. So, my battery bank doesn't get much use, maybe four months out the year and I don't let them go below 50% DOD. When using the grid-tie inverters, the off-grid inverter just works as a massive UPS. Typically the power is out in the neighbourhood for a maximum of 2-3 hours as they fix blown transformers. That is nothing for my 22KWh battery bank. I don't even notice an outage unless I look outside at the darkened neighbourhood.

I will say, as before, that the Globatt Inva is garbage. The Volta batteries on the other hand seem to be holding up quite well, at this rate they should last a decade or more out, I should think.

ytrewq
---------
Thanks a lot for the update. I completely understand about not giving details on pricing and whatnot. The guy who sold me my Volta batteries asked me not to disclose the price because it was a damn good price... I think he succumbed to the feminine charms of the wife (and that just over the phone). Oh she is quite useful at times.

ytrewq wrote: ↑
November 27, 2017, 2:18 am
I call "bull----!" based on our experience thus far. It seems PEA makes it difficult unless you use THEM for the install at inflated prices.

Wow, there, I learned something, I hadn't realized that PEA was offering installation services. Yet another reason for the interference pattern Anyway, I hope you get the sign-off. I guess I will have to wait until the government gets some cojones

Post by **glalt** » November 27, 2017, 9:48 am

A good point was brought up be ytrewg. I was astounded by the amount of dust in the air. Since I am an old fart, climbing up on the roof is now out of the question. Roof tiles are easily cracked or broken by a careless person walking on them. That leaves out the village handyman cleaning them. If I were ever to go totally solar, no way would I ever put the panels on the roof without also putting walkways between the rows of panels. I'd love to expand my system but we have far too many mature trees, so that is a no go.

As far as batteries, the flooded deep cycle give you far more power for the baht and watching the acid level is not that much bother. I have two FB 125 AH flooded at the farm. As mentioned, I have BSB AGM at the house because they are inside. More than four years from both the flooded and the sealed batteries with no problems.

I had surveillance cameras installed along with fiber Internet and my home system is not able to keep everything going. I need another small system with larger batteries to keep everything in my computer room powered. Our grid power still stinks so I do want that system solar powered.

I'll be staying away from the Globatt brand batteries.

Post by **rjj04** » November 27, 2017, 10:16 am

glalt

Are you still AC coupling your grid-tie inverters to back-feed into your batteries? No problems with that?

Post by **glalt** » November 27, 2017, 10:29 am

rjj04 wrote: ↑
November 27, 2017, 10:16 am
glalt

Are you still AC coupling your grid-tie inverters to back-feed into your batteries? No problems with that?

Since I blew up one inverter (POP), I gave up on that brain fart. LOL!

As a side note, I had a friend drop the blown up inverter at Amorn for repair. They wanted 5,000 baht for the repair which was more than it cost to begin with.

Post by **glalt** » November 27, 2017, 11:04 am

I just received the quote from BSB for the Transpower TGEL12-200. They want 13,000 baht each plus shipping. They call them hybrid gel, whatever that is.

Post by JR » November 27, 2017, 1:01 pm

I have Kolsat AGM 200ah and they seem much more stable than the flooded Volta 160 I had before. Kolsat were 11.300B.

Post by **rjj04** » November 28, 2017, 9:48 am

JR wrote: ↑
November 27, 2017, 1:01 pm
I have Kolsat AGM 200ah and they seem much more stable than the flooded Volta 160 I had before. Kolsat were 11.300B.

I could not find the spec on these Kolsat so I used a Victron spec for AGM
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/do ... ies-EN.pdf

Kolsat AGM 200ah vs Volta 150ah
-------------------------------------------------
THB/Ah ---------------------------> 56.5 vs 40 +40%
Cycle lifetime at 50% DOD--> 600? vs 2000 -70%
Expected Lifetime THB/KWh-> 3.9 vs 9.7 +248%

If Kolsat and the Victron have similar specs than the Kolsat would cost
248% over the expected lifetime of the battery.

Of course AGM has other advantages, mostly applicable to marine usage,
not residential solar homes.

If you are going to consume power at a fast rate (versus the 20hr rate typically
given) then AGM will perform better due to lower internal resistance. This also
reduces the power lost to keep the batteries at float charge. Really should
put those factors into the calculation above.

Also at 80% DOD the difference goes down to +225% but it could be more
as you might be able to reduce the total number of batteries required since
you can actually use more of the batteries you have. Still I think we are
talking at least a 100% higher lifetime cost.

Perhaps the expected cycles are a lot more on these Kolsat batts?
Do you have the spec?

A good write-up on battery types...
http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/01.Type/index.html

Another thing is that AGM can get fried pretty easily if your charger has some fault... whereas flooded would be less susceptible.

Post by **rjj04** » November 28, 2017, 9:55 am

Volta Cycles/DOD chart

Post by JR » November 28, 2017, 12:24 pm

rjj04 wrote: ↑
November 28, 2017, 9:48 am

JR wrote: ↑
November 27, 2017, 1:01 pm
I have Kolsat AGM 200ah and they seem much more stable than the flooded Volta 160 I had before. Kolsat were 11.300B.
I could not find the spec on these Kolsat so I used a Victron spec for AGM
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/do ... ies-EN.pdf

Kolsat AGM 200ah vs Volta 150ah
-------------------------------------------------
THB/Ah ---------------------------> 56.5 vs 40 +40%
Cycle lifetime at 50% DOD--> 600? vs 2000 -70%
Expected Lifetime THB/KWh-> 3.9 vs 9.7 +248%

If Kolsat and the Victron have similar specs than the Kolsat would cost
248% over the expected lifetime of the battery.

Of course AGM has other advantages, mostly applicable to marine usage,
not residential solar homes.

If you are going to consume power at a fast rate (versus the 20hr rate typically
given) then AGM will perform better due to lower internal resistance. This also
reduces the power lost to keep the batteries at float charge. Really should
put those factors into the calculation above.

Also at 80% DOD the difference goes down to +225% but it could be more
as you might be able to reduce the total number of batteries required since
you can actually use more of the batteries you have. Still I think we are
talking at least a 100% higher lifetime cost.

Perhaps the expected cycles are a lot more on these Kolsat batts?
Do you have the spec?

A good write-up on battery types...
http://www.vonwentzel.net/Battery/01.Type/index.html

Another thing is that AGM can get fried pretty easily if your charger has some fault... whereas flooded would be less susceptible.

i think that you confuse AGM with Gel batteries in your last sentence. And you are comparing different things. A flooded deep cycle battery does not have much more life time than a VRLA. I said the sealed batteries seem more stable. The Voltas have lasted not two years and have caused many problems in that time with power drops and cut outs etc. I did not comment on the differencies in Ah and price, the latter naturally higher with more Ah. Goes without saying.

Post by **rjj04** » November 28, 2017, 12:49 pm

JR:
I have no personal experience with AGM batteries for solar, so I could always have it wrong... but, a few websites that profess to be experts in batteries (as the link below) state it like this...
"As with all gelled and sealed units, AGM batteries are sensitive to overcharging. "
http://batteryuniversity.com/index.php/ ... ss_mat_agm

Post by **glalt** » November 28, 2017, 1:27 pm

I have to trust my solar charger. It is an EP Solar MPPT. It must be doing OK because after more than four years the AGM batteries show no weakness. You set it for battery total AH plus choose sealed, gel or flooded. And yes, I don't discharge more than 50 percent.

Post by **glalt** » November 29, 2017, 11:52 am

According to EP Solar, the maximum charging rates for gel type batteries is 14.2 volts with no equalization cycles. For AGM it is 14.4 volts and for flooded it is 14.6 volts. That's a pretty narrow range. You need a decent solar charger to properly charge the batteries. I'd hate to fry my batteries because the solar charger was not accurate enough.

The specs for the TransPower hybrid gel are the same as for the AGM batteries according to the battery specs.

Post by **glalt** » December 5, 2017, 12:22 pm

I just ordered two 6 volt 225 AH batteries. They are flooded batteries so I will keep them outside.

http://www.saraphanbattery.com/product/ ... %E0%B8%97/

Price including tax and delivery was 10,486 baht total. I had requested quotes from three battery suppliers and no replies. I got this quote back within a couple hours. Apparently those other companies don't answer emails in English. These T105 3K batteries weigh a kilogram more than the famous Trojan brand.

I could not justify paying more than 14,000 baht for a single 200 AH sealed battery from BSB.

Post by **rjj04** » December 5, 2017, 1:21 pm

When it comes to these deep-cycle batteries, more mass is better.

On a Kg/Wh basis those batteries are 0.0215 Kg/Wh
vs the Volta VIN150 at 0.0294 Kg/Wh
with the Volta you'd get 38% more lead for about the same cost per Wh (or less).
The 3K batts don't give the "dry weight" spec so a little difficult to compare accurately.

Did you find some good reviews of these online?
Anyway, I'm sure they'll hold up a lot better than the Globatt Inva's I've got

Post by **rjj04** » December 5, 2017, 1:37 pm

Hmmm, that page says those 3K batts are only 4,200 THB per battery. So, you paid 2,000 THB more for tax and delivery?

Post by **glalt** » December 5, 2017, 3:26 pm

rjj04 wrote: ↑
December 5, 2017, 1:37 pm
Hmmm, that page says those 3K batts are only 4,200 THB per battery. So, you paid 2,000 THB more for tax and delivery?

That price is for when you trade in your old batteries. Then there is 7 percent VAT and delivery is 400 baht. I was actually trying to find a deal on Volta but two stores did not reply to my emails. The third store had a battery name that I never heard of, no answer there either.

The few reviews on 3K batteries were good so I decided to take a chance on them. My FB batteries seem to be holding up well but they only sell 125 AH deep cycle. Trojan batteries have great reviews and these 3K seem to be nearly identical

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