The USA does plenty of good!

Post by **thlboston** » October 6, 2006, 12:03 am

Val that is a wonderful point. I just recently visited the gravesite on the Kwai and was somewhat surprised at the lack of US tombstones. I wonder if the same policy applied here as well. Anyway, thanks for that information. Having lost 3 uncles in WWII, uncles I never had a chance to meet, I wonder if Euro's truly appreciate the sacrifice that we Americans have made to their freedom.

Cookie, sadly you were misled by your history teacher. Though it is a common mistake that has made itself into various history books. The French involvement, while valuable, did not prove decisive, or for that matter all that important. The main objective of the Continental Army was to place itself between British troops and the Continental Congress. Washington needed to fight a war in which he suffered no decisive loss. That is, where the Continental Army had to surrender. This is why you do not read or here of many critical battles from the Revolutionary War. This is not to say there were not critical military events. In the end, the main objective was to keep the Continental Congress alive as a political body. This was an objective met almost exclusively through the astute leadership of Washington as he led his army past some perilous moments. So Cookie, while your memory may be old, there is still time for adequate research. Do not let yourself be guided by all those things you learned so long ago. Though keep close those things taught to you by your parents as they are the most valuable lessons.

This is not to diminish the involvement of the French. Well I guess in the eyes of your Cookies teacher it would. I'm assuming this was high school or a lesser grade that you received this information. I too was told of Lafayette. I'm quite positive this information was not deceminated at the University level. Still the French did provide assistance in the way of finances and otherwise occupying the British in endevours elsewhere. In many ways the financial assistance provided, at a time of great economic distress, can be seen as a prelude to the French Revolution. But that is another story.

Cheers,
THL

Post by **thlboston** » October 6, 2006, 12:15 am

Having just read my previous post I hasten to make a correction. I mistakenly wrote "we Americans." I have never served in the armed services and nobody owes their freedom to me. In fact I am indebted to all those brave soldiers who have allowed me to live live a life of relative leisure. And I should have not limited it to Americans. So many British and French resistance forces need to be included as well.

THL

Post by **wokkawombat** » October 6, 2006, 10:44 am

In his book, Prisoners of the Japanese, Gavan Daws states that of total railroad deaths (Siam-Burma Railway) 6318 were British, 2815 Australian, 132 American and 2490 Dutch. The nationality of the rest is unknown.

In gross terms, about 1 in 3 British died, about 1 in 4 Australians, about 1 in 5 Americans, and about 1 in 6 Dutch.

It was the luck of the draw, no Americans died of Cholera simply because they were sent to areas where Cholera was not endemic.

The Americans were mainly fron the USS Houston and the 131st Field Artillery.

I think that at Kanchantaburi war cemetery on the far left there are the graves of some American aircrew.

John

valentine · Post by **valentine** » October 6, 2006, 11:25 am

Thank you John for those statistics, other writers and the now renamed Commonwealth War Graves Commission have others. However my point of reply was not to question them, whatever the true figures are, they are horrific and do not include the estimated 100,000 Asians found murdered in mass graves as recently as 1998. I am really posting in case any one is thinking of going to Kanchanaburi to pay respects that there are two war cemetries there. One , the most widely known and visited is on the main Sang Sheuto road not far from the town centre. this is land donated by the people of Thailand after the war to the Commonwealth Commission and has the same status as the embassy, ie a part of Great Britain in Thailand.The Union Jack is raised and lowered daily.The other possibly less known cemetry but certainly more appropiate is at Chungkhai just over the river Kwai. This was the site of the prison hospital where many thousands of all nationalities lost their personal battle with the disease and malnutrition inflicted upon them by their inhuman captors.This cemetry is laid out like an English garden with many rose bushes and other flowers to enhance its peaceful setting alongside the river.To my mind a more fitting tribute than the hoards of tourist buses descending on the other one.
Not forgetting in all conflicts there are two sides and two sets of casualties.
If anyone is interested, the Japanese war dead are commemorated in their own cemetry which is located a short walk from the river Kwai bridge back towards town. It is normally kept locked but straight across the road is a noodle shop and the proprietor has the keys and its her job to keep the place tidy.She's a lovely old lady but never fails to show amazement when a farang asks to view.So don't be surprised.

Post by **arjay** » October 6, 2006, 4:52 pm

thlboston wrote:Many Americans view this pan-european attitude as selfish and ungreatful. But I feel it is refreshing that Europe, after a long time & several mis-steps, has finally taken off its training wheels and decided to take ownership of their situation. This should alleviate a major financial burden for the US taxpayer as it was not cheap propping up a large portion of the European continent

.
I have read and re-read this several times and until now resisted the temptation to respond. I have to ask however is that how Americans generally see the situation and Europe? As a Brit and a European I have to say I find your remarks both arrogant and offensive. I am sure America would not have involved itself had there been no self-interest whatsoever.

Post by **BKKSTAN** » October 6, 2006, 5:05 pm

Your all fired up Arjay.Explain your discomfort.Everyone knows there are no altruistic gov't action by any country,so what is it that you are really upset about?

Post by **arjay** » October 6, 2006, 5:22 pm

That's true Stan. I can't altogether put my finger on it, but I think the remarks on this thread come across as condescending and to be honest arrogant. Comments about "salad days", "propping up Europe" etc. The sort of.... look we baled you boys out, and supported you for so long and it's nice to see that you're now getting on your feet approach.

Post by **BKKSTAN** » October 6, 2006, 5:47 pm

I can see your point of view.They could be construed as arrogant and condescending the way you explained it!

Post by **BKKSTAN** » October 6, 2006, 5:51 pm

I didn't finish!
I don't read his submission as a personal attack on you as a European!

valentine · Post by **valentine** » October 6, 2006, 6:09 pm

Come on Arjay you know full well John Wayne and Audie Murphy won the 1941-45 war virtually single handed, notice I didn't say 39-45

Just for the record I don't consider myself to be European I am English one of the three countries that comprise Great Britain and one of the four that make up the United Kingdom. We are geographically located within the general land mass that comprise Europe but there is no nationality called European. I , like many other of my countrymen opposed our entry into the common market and even was firmly against the building of the channel tunnel on the grounds the rats might sneek through , a fear that has come true.

Let the dreamers of Hollywood present how they like, we know the true tale.

Post by **BKKSTAN** » October 6, 2006, 6:16 pm

Right on Val!If you had grown up in America,Audie and John were the pride of the nation

I doubt any country doesn't try to instill nationalistic pride and values through the media of the day

Post by **arjay** » October 6, 2006, 6:18 pm

No I didn't see it as a personal attack. I wasn't inferring that.

I didn't explain it. I copied words used.

It was just the condescending tone as to how America's (historical and ongoing) involvement with Europe and presumably Great Britain are viewed by some.

And yes Val, I do make a distinction between GB and Europe.

valentine · Post by **valentine** » October 6, 2006, 6:27 pm

BKKSTAN wrote: Right on Val!If you had grown up in America,Audie and John were the pride of the nation I doubt any country doesn't try to instill nationalistic pride and values through the media of the day

Perfectly correct Stan but it is normal to seperate fiction and historical fact a point that is sadly lacking from the moguls of Hollywood and which may contribute to the impression of over importance that cinema goers have after seeing the fims.

Post by **ctm** » October 7, 2006, 12:24 am

valentine wrote:Please remember it is still a very sore point with most Brits that the US left us alone for two years to fight the nazi threat, from 1939-41

Val, Val, Val. No need to be bitter. To listen to most of Englishmen I meet, America just got in the way in WWII and the Brits won the war single handedly.

Stan, I think it is that often Americans tend to think others should go into a bootlicking, worship, deference when Americans help them. When we bomb the hell out of them for years killing millions or install a dictatorship which kills millions, Americans just shrug and go “oops sorry about that”. (If you didn't see that Vietnam movie with Micheal J Fox and Sean Penn you might not get that reference.) We get these traits from our English roots.

Post by **ctm** » October 7, 2006, 12:38 am

arjay wrote:
thlboston wrote:Many Americans view this pan-european attitude as selfish and ungreatful. But I feel it is refreshing that Europe, after a long time & several mis-steps, has finally taken off its training wheels and decided to take ownership of their situation. This should alleviate a major financial burden for the US taxpayer as it was not cheap propping up a large portion of the European continent
.
I have read and re-read this several times and until now resisted the temptation to respond. I have to ask however is that how Americans generally see the situation and Europe? As a Brit and a European I have to say I find your remarks both arrogant and offensive. I am sure America would not have involved itself had there been no self-interest whatsoever.

“Now now Arjay, no need to be upset. Certainly no more offensive than quips like, “this because the Americans have no history of their own, outside of cowboys and indians they are jealous of the world wide domination we achieved whilst they were still involved in the Alamo.” Or the constant pissing and moaning about American football by Englishmen which does nothing but show their total lack of understanding of athletics and human conditioning. Guess that's why they never win any international sporting contests.

Why don't you go count the number of offensive posts on here and Thaivisa? Bet it is 50 to 1, English to everyone else. Your going to dish it, learn to take it. Buck up, mate!

Post by **BKKSTAN** » October 7, 2006, 12:44 am

Perhaps you are an expert on how Americans react.It does seem we are a fickle lot ,easily led by liberal media commentary and body counts!It is obvious,that with time and magnified negative results ,we are wrong and should change our course!
I still hear your anti this and anti that.What I don't hear is what you actually stand for and what leadership you would support?

Post by **thlboston** » October 7, 2006, 10:58 am

Arjay I am shocked that you took my comments in such a vein. I, as an American, am truly happy that Europe, after such a long and arduous journey, has finally emerged from the self-inflicted morass of WWII.

And we Americans should feel proud that our enormous investment is finally paying dividends.

So I say again: Enjoy!! Arjay do not feel defensive or echo the self-doubt of a European mindset of decades past. When you receive a compliment accept it in the vein in which it was given.

Cheers,
THL

valentine · Post by **valentine** » October 7, 2006, 1:05 pm

THL. I have just read your remarks. I come to the conclusion you are either looking for a starring role in the next Hollywood blockbuster about WW11 or indeed you may be seeking to be elected as the next president.
You certainly seem to be well qualified. I don't understand this obvious, is it, resentment or jealousy about europeans in general because if my understanding is correct, most white Americans are descendants of the many nationed european settlers, with Italy, German Jews and Irish being prominent amongst them.

Post by **BKKSTAN** » October 7, 2006, 2:28 pm

Now we can call ourselves Europeans and drop the title Americans

Post by **Bubbagoes** » October 7, 2006, 3:49 pm

Granted, many more English, Welsh, Scots, Dutch and Aussies are buried at the river Kwai. About 540 Americans died there, a small number compared to the Allies, but the American dead were removed to Arlington National Cemetary in Arlington, Va.
This is American custom as evidenced in the ongoing search for remains in SE asia to be returned to the USA.
We don't leave our dead behind.
Lets not forget the many more asian dead, thai's, burmese, that didn't even get buried.

The USA does plenty of good!

Americans at the River Kwai