How do you choose between flooded deep cycle batteries and AGM or Gell? the best advantage buying AGM or Gell is that they are sealed and you can leave them in your house. The life seems quite good. My AGM batteries are more than four years old. At the farm solar system I have Flooded batteries. They are also more than four years old. I have no idea how long the flooded or AGM batteries are going to last. This time I bought golf cart batteries. They are only six volt so you need to connect them in series to get 12 volts. I just ordered two more golf cart batteries. I chose them mostly because of cost and hopefully longer life. These batteries can stand more abuse that the sealed type. The 12 volt AGM batteries cost 13,200 baht for 200 AH. The two flooded golf cart batteries cost 10,500 baht for 225 AH connected in series for 12 volts. The two more that I ordered for 10,500 baht will give me 450 AH. So four flooded batteries give me 450 AH for 21,000 baht. Two 12 volt AGM batteries would give me 400 AH for 26,400 baht.

Most of the savings come from the fact that golf cart batteries have been around much longer than the sealed batteries. The golf cart batteries are made in Thailand so no import tax or transportation costs from overseas.

Finally got the (allegedly) final signature from KK. Last steps are (allegedly) take the mountain of approved paperwork to PEA; and then they send someone out to confirm and install a digital meter. Then, we'll be legit.

I cannot imagine this process being implemented nation-wide. Anything you read about solar initiatives is lip service. The implementation is absolutely bonkers.

all the bureaucrats have to have their chance to stamp the paperwork!

A couple of TIT gems for your collective consumption.

In September 2017, they proclaimed deregulation was indeed happening Q4 and even fixed a buyback rate of <2.8 THB/Kw.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/ad ... r-to-begin

Then, in December 2017, they said, nah, that isn't going to happen and neither is the rate; but maybe later (again).

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/ne ... n#cxrecs_s

Note that the discount between the normal ~4 THB/Kw sell rate and the <2.8 THB/Kw buy rate (~30%) is about = to the savings derived from installing solar (in most cases, I would presume). I opine that someone figured out that PEA/MEA would still be "cutting checks" even if they were to go with that rip-off buy rate. Hence, delay until someone could devise a plan to TOTALLY screw us all out of any cost savings.

FrazeeDK wrote: ↑

January 7, 2018, 11:11 am

all the bureaucrats have to have their chance to stamp the paperwork!

And be prepared to wait forever if they happen to run out of red ink for their stamp and need to send to Bangkok for more ink.

FrazeeDK wrote: ↑

January 7, 2018, 11:11 am

all the bureaucrats have to have their chance to stamp the paperwork!

"Bureaucrats"? Where might they be? When I tried getting into the roof-top incentive program, all I encountered were PEA people. Had to hire a PEA engineer to help do the paperwork on "their" system layout. Had to go sit in a meeting and file the paperwork to PEA engineers and managers... if government bureaucrats were about, I didn't notice. PEA approved the inverter list (extremely slowly). Some inverters on PEA list were not on MEA list, and vice versa on MEA list but not PEA list... how can that be when they use the same equipment. Thousands of approved inverters on lists in Australia, California, Europe... but PEA had to go one by one and test each inverter... gee I wonder why. Can't put your panels on your carport roof.... must be on the house roof. Why, "because". Every damn excuse to slow things down.

In my opinion, the problem lies in giving legally mandated monopolistic power to a private company, in a country with corruption ripe everywhere. No way for "bureaucrats" to do anything meaningful, even if they wanted to, and could turn their noses up to the tea money. Either nationalize the grid, or open it to competition (ugh, even greater rats nest of wires... and the consummate electrocutions). Neither option will ever happen though.

ytrewq - good on you for having the drive to get that done (allegedly ).

With the crazy high prices here why bother? how many years to even break even?? I think never. what with falures and battery replacement etc etc, it clearly is not encouraged here with the electric monopoly.

minimiglia wrote: ↑

January 8, 2018, 11:45 am

With the crazy high prices here why bother? how many years to even break even?? I think never. what with falures and battery replacement etc etc, it clearly is not encouraged here with the electric monopoly.

With grid-tie you don't need batteries. If you DIY purchase and install a grid-tie system, you can get a pay back in less than ten years easy, if they just let you use the grid as a battery (as many places around the world allow). If you DIY you will not get approved, at least from what I've seen you need to get a Thai company to handle the paperwork, and they will not do that unless they do the whole install (IMO).

So crazy high prices and totally not cost effective?

What do you mean no payback? If you jump through all their hoops, pay over the top prices for components and give a few under the table payments, then all you need is about ten years for your payback. That's provided nothing breaks down. Of course with the grid tie system, if the main power goes off, your system goes down with it and you have no power.

Payback on our 5 kw grid-tie is <7 years. Our system saves us on average ~15 THB/daylight hour (dust, clouds, heat, and other annoyances prevent max production savings of 22+ THB/daylight hour with 16 x 330 w panels). HOWEVER, the whole point of grid-tie is to spin the meter backwards to derive maximum savings. Right now, when the meter spins backwards, we save -4+ THB/Kw. When PEA replaces our mechanical meter with a digital meter, they will control how much, if any, savings we get. They proposed "< 2.8 THB/Kw", which is why I said it is a ripoff rate. One doesn't install grid-tie to power the house. One installs grid-tie to derive maximum savings (or, in theory, a small income).

I am quite happy with my generator to cover blackouts. I canmot see how any of you will ever get to a breakeven point?

All joking aside, I am quite pleased with my solar systems. The original system powers my computer, printer and LED lights. No worries about lightning strikes or power outages.

I had a security camera system installed. When the power goes off the camera system goes off also. The second system at the house powers that system 24/7.

I should add that the first system uses four 65 AH AGM batteries for 260 AH total. The second system is using four 6 volt 225 AH golf cart batteries. For the 12 volt system, that gives me 450 AH. I am a bit disappointed that system is not quite enough to run my isolated 10 amp grid breaker. If I take the large refrigerator off that circuit, it runs the TV and all the lights in the house plus the router and camera system. I have a double throw switch set up that allows me to simply change from the grid to battery power. I prefer to do it that way because I don't discharge my batteries more than 50 percent. When the grid goes down, a simple flip of the switch puts the 10 amp house breaker on the battery bank.

I also have another small system on a farm that is off the grid. That system (250 AH batteries) runs lights, a TV, a satellite dish and a couple of small fans. Both that system and the original house system are more than four years old with no problems.

Will those systems ever have a payback? I really have no idea. The point is that I don't care. I get a lot of satisfaction when the neighborhood is dark and I am on the computer plus my wife has lights and is watching TV. Just yesterday the grid power went down three times. The grid power reliability here is worse now than when I went solar. If the grid power were more reliable, I probably wouldn't wouldn't have installed the second house system. I really like having my computer totally off the grid. No surges, lightning strikes or brownouts.

minimiglia wrote: ↑

January 9, 2018, 8:15 am

I am quite happy with my generator to cover blackouts. I canmot see how any of you will ever get to a breakeven point?

In this thread we have gone over the financials many times. With grid-tie, and the ability to just feed the grid and take back what you put in, you can get a pay back within ten years easily. If you were lucky enough to be one of the few who got into the rooftop incentive program and you are receiving the contracted 7THB per KWh produced, then you could be getting your money back a lot sooner than that!!!

From what I understand of ytrewq's system, he will get a good return. For me, I was stupid, I admit. When PEA locked my meter I went a bit ballistic and bought an off-grid inverter/charger and a lot of batteries and thought I'd try to pay PEA as little as possible... but it will cost me a lot more than PEA (obviously I am but a speck on their financials). On the other hand, I never worry about brownouts or blackouts... EVER!!!

minimiglia, You have a generator, that's great. The problem with a generator is that it is not "uninterruptable". I have a ton of small SBCs running an alarm system, with a couple dozen cameras about. If every time the power dropped out my LAN went down, I'd have chaos with boot cycles. My security system would be worthless... thieves could just pull the power from the meter when we are not home and proceed with their deeds. So, for me to have a system that can't be knocked out (well quite difficult without an EMP or other serious jolt to it). I have heard of thieving gangs cutting the power to an entire neighbourhood in order to cut the lights and security systems. Almost impossible to do that to my house So, it is not all about "payback", there are other concerns.

A generator with gen-set? (forgot what they call them... auto-start and ATS), coupled to a UPS system with a large inverter but only a small battery capacity (since the generator could recharge them periodically) would probably be a much smarter option than what I did... c'est la vie. Has anybody seen a generator that is combined with a large inverter and small battery, as one unit? Then all you would need to do is put an ATS in at your panel, and presto an un-interruptable generator? Never seen these though.

We have a 7.5 kw gen with ATS. All critical electronics and lights are on UPS boxes.

Blackout happens, we often aren't aware until we hear the generator running. Brownouts can be a pain, sometimes. The ATS won't switch over unless a threshold (dunno specifics) is crossed.

Our area has gotten quite a few upgrades over the past few years. Last year, the generator kicked in maybe 6-7 times for <30 hours total. Most times were pre-announced over the morning village speaker.

Generator with ATS was a great investment! We can even run a 12k BTU A/C unit in the fitness room, open the door, and keep the whole first floor comfortable on a 35-40 C day even without unplugging other stuff.

ytrewq wrote: ↑

January 9, 2018, 1:01 pm

We have a 7.5 kw gen with ATS. All critical electronics and lights are on UPS boxes.

Blackout happens, we often aren't aware until we hear the generator running. Brownouts can be a pain, sometimes. The ATS won't switch over unless a threshold (dunno specifics) is crossed.

Our area has gotten quite a few upgrades over the past few years. Last year, the generator kicked in maybe 6-7 times for <30 hours total. Most times were pre-announced over the morning village speaker.

Generator with ATS was a great investment! We can even run a 12k BTU A/C unit in the fitness room, open the door, and keep the whole first floor comfortable on a 35-40 C day even without unplugging other stuff.

Seems like you have a pretty good set-up there.

What made you go for a few? UPS boxes, versus one large inverter/UPS, did it just evolve that way? Prices are very cheap now on a fairly large inverter/ups. I found that the small UPS boxes you buy in the stores hereabouts don't last very long, what with all the glitches on the power-lines here their batteries die quickly.

How long does it take your generator to start and put power through the ATS? 5 minutes? I suppose in cold climates it can take a while, here it shouldn't be too bad.

There is a 10 second delay before the ATS unit tries to start the generator. Then, it takes a few more seconds for the generator to crank and start up. I ditched the small start battery for a primo car battery just...because. Kicks right over usually on the first try.

The multiple (3?) 600-750 watt UPS units are more than adequate. Pretty much everything is LED. Laptop, tablets, and phones have their own batteries. No need or reason to have motorized appliances (water pumps, water heater, refrigerator, ceiling fans, etc.) on a battery. They can all wait for the generator to start - except the gate and garage motors which are both connected to a single 1.4 kw computer UPS. Ceiling lights also need generator. We can easily get by using our phones and/or lights running off UPS power for hours, if need be. We also keep a couple of those strap-on LED headlamps charged for walking around outside at night or during overnight rainstorms.

The UPS batteries conk out every 2-3 years, but are easily replaced by Amon (sp?) for ~500 thb per. A pittance, really.

After going through a small UPS and a large UPS, I am of the opinion that you are better off building your own. A decent size deep cycle battery, a small inverter and an automatic small battery charger will keep your computer off the grid. You would find it very expensive and difficult to find a UPS with a 200 AH battery. You will pay a bit more for grid electricity but power outages will be a thing of the past. Since your battery is constantly charging except for during power outages, it should last for many years.

Trump and his war on the US middle class just raised solar panel import tariffs to 30%.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a66 ... mg00000009

That should create an inventory glut and lower prices here in Asia. So, wooot wooot for anyone reading this thread and looking to start or expand this or next year. I suspect with the lowered prices, Asia will be able to easily absorb the supply glut and lead the way in solar adoption.

On the update front: Yep, the saga continues. We need yet another signature (*gasp, shock and amazement*). They are demanding an engineer to sign off on something clearly not within his perview...and so that probably won't happen. Stay tuned!

Most of Thailand's green power talk is just that, talk. They seem to put many obstacles in the way. They are on the way of building another coal fired generator. Were the government to promote solar power or other green power, it is doubtful that they would need the coal fired plant. TIT.