Solar Power

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rjj04
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Re: Solar Power

Post by rjj04 » January 9, 2018, 2:24 pm

ytrewq wrote:
January 9, 2018, 1:01 pm
We have a 7.5 kw gen with ATS. All critical electronics and lights are on UPS boxes.

Blackout happens, we often aren't aware until we hear the generator running. Brownouts can be a pain, sometimes. The ATS won't switch over unless a threshold (dunno specifics) is crossed.

Our area has gotten quite a few upgrades over the past few years. Last year, the generator kicked in maybe 6-7 times for <30 hours total. Most times were pre-announced over the morning village speaker.

Generator with ATS was a great investment! We can even run a 12k BTU A/C unit in the fitness room, open the door, and keep the whole first floor comfortable on a 35-40 C day even without unplugging other stuff. :razz:
Seems like you have a pretty good set-up there.

What made you go for a few? UPS boxes, versus one large inverter/UPS, did it just evolve that way? Prices are very cheap now on a fairly large inverter/ups. I found that the small UPS boxes you buy in the stores hereabouts don't last very long, what with all the glitches on the power-lines here their batteries die quickly.

How long does it take your generator to start and put power through the ATS? 5 minutes? I suppose in cold climates it can take a while, here it shouldn't be too bad.



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Re: Solar Power

Post by ytrewq » January 9, 2018, 7:36 pm

There is a 10 second delay before the ATS unit tries to start the generator. Then, it takes a few more seconds for the generator to crank and start up. I ditched the small start battery for a primo car battery just...because. :lol: Kicks right over usually on the first try.

The multiple (3?) 600-750 watt UPS units are more than adequate. Pretty much everything is LED. Laptop, tablets, and phones have their own batteries. No need or reason to have motorized appliances (water pumps, water heater, refrigerator, ceiling fans, etc.) on a battery. They can all wait for the generator to start - except the gate and garage motors which are both connected to a single 1.4 kw computer UPS. Ceiling lights also need generator. We can easily get by using our phones and/or lights running off UPS power for hours, if need be. We also keep a couple of those strap-on LED headlamps charged for walking around outside at night or during overnight rainstorms.

The UPS batteries conk out every 2-3 years, but are easily replaced by Amon (sp?) for ~500 thb per. A pittance, really.

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Re: Solar Power

Post by glalt » January 10, 2018, 12:03 pm

After going through a small UPS and a large UPS, I am of the opinion that you are better off building your own. A decent size deep cycle battery, a small inverter and an automatic small battery charger will keep your computer off the grid. You would find it very expensive and difficult to find a UPS with a 200 AH battery. You will pay a bit more for grid electricity but power outages will be a thing of the past. Since your battery is constantly charging except for during power outages, it should last for many years.

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Re: Solar Power

Post by ytrewq » January 23, 2018, 7:42 am

Trump and his war on the US middle class just raised solar panel import tariffs to 30%.

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_5a66 ... mg00000009

That should create an inventory glut and lower prices here in Asia. So, wooot wooot for anyone reading this thread and looking to start or expand this or next year. I suspect with the lowered prices, Asia will be able to easily absorb the supply glut and lead the way in solar adoption.

On the update front: Yep, the saga continues. We need yet another signature (*gasp, shock and amazement*). They are demanding an engineer to sign off on something clearly not within his perview...and so that probably won't happen. Stay tuned! :roll:

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Re: Solar Power

Post by glalt » January 23, 2018, 12:18 pm

Most of Thailand's green power talk is just that, talk. They seem to put many obstacles in the way. They are on the way of building another coal fired generator. Were the government to promote solar power or other green power, it is doubtful that they would need the coal fired plant. TIT.

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rjj04
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Re: Solar Power

Post by rjj04 » February 15, 2018, 3:57 pm

When I think about abrupt climate change, and the likelihood that our species will make it to the end of this century I get pretty despondent. That being said, if what I just read here...

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/02/11/so ... exclusive/

is correct (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), there would seem to be hope after all. The article states that a top solar power analysis group, in 2015, made a very optimistic projection that the average price per watt of solar would go down from the then $0.62/watt to $0.21/watt by 2040. So now, in 2018, according to that forecast the price would be around $0.58/0.57? The amazing thing is that it looks like the average price per watt in 2017 was... drum role please... $0.37/watt. When I read this I had to stop and and read it again a couple more times. The actual quote is

“We have pegged the typical factory-gate module price at the end of 2017 at about 33 cents per W, meaning a price around 37 cents per W in most markets."

So, if this is true, it seems that within the next couple of years it might be cheaper to abandon a brand spanking new natural gas power generation plant and just go build a new solar farm. Yes, I know, there is the baseload/storage problem, and some places don't get much solar insolation, so this would not happen in every instance, but as the Lithium-ion giga-factories ramp up and battery storage cost goes down over the next decade we could see an unimaginable transition to solar w/storage happening. This assumes that the fossil fuel industry with all its power doesn't throw a wrench in the works somehow. They certainly have been doing whatever they can up until now so who knows.

Remember, this is happening with very little technological progress. If perovskite panels become a reality, in a decade you could see solar $/watt below $0.20. At that point solar power is virtually free.

I am still trying to get my head around the implications of all this. Anyway, good news for once. With Trump seemingly selling-off the USA to the fossil fuel industry, I'll take good news wherever I can find it :)

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?opt ... ival=21136

Now, when are these prices coming to Thailand.... 2025? :)

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Re: Solar Power

Post by glalt » February 15, 2018, 9:26 pm

I have no problem with solar panel prices as they are. I'm working on another small project and just ordered a 315 watt panel. the price was 5,850 baht. Of course there is VAT of 7 percent on top of the cost plus delivery. If Thailand were serious about solar power, they would give you a break on components. Eliminating the VAT would help a little. I would agree that grid tie systems are not the answer. Storing the energy is the problem.

What I am really looking forward to is a high tech battery breakthrough. Batteries are the shortest lived and most expensive part of off grid solar systems. My AGM battery bank is getting weaker. they have been online for four and a half years. I have moved two 125 AH flooded batteries from the farm and am now using them at the house. The four 65 AH batteries are going to the farm. I bought the AGM batteries because they were in the house. I think the flooded batteries will last longer and are about half the price of the AGM batteries. The disadvantage of the flooded batteries is that you have to keep them topped up with water (monthly) and they should be kept outside. My wife is not thrilled to have my batteries on the front porch but she is happy to be able to have lights and watch TV when the grid is down. There are four 6 volt 225 AH golf cart batteries and now the two 12 volt 125 AH batteries on the porch.

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Barney
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Re: Solar Power

Post by Barney » February 20, 2018, 4:32 pm

Got my new to to buy now.
Will be looking into it when I get back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuZFG1R0hyY

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Re: Solar Power

Post by glalt » February 22, 2018, 2:21 pm

Amazing technology. Unfortunately I would expect it would be well beyond cost effective. A seven year payback is usually stated with standard systems but even with my standard off grid systems, I think the payback will be much longer, mainly because of replacing expensive battery banks.

In the past several days the grid has been down at least ten times. Usually for a couple minutes but yesterday for a couple hours. That is my reason for an off grid system.

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Re: Solar Power

Post by minimiglia » February 23, 2018, 2:46 pm

From what I see you will never ever reach break even point, total falacy?

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Re: Solar Power

Post by glalt » February 23, 2018, 4:41 pm

The standard estimated 7 year payback can only be done if you never have to replace anything. You would have to be lucky if a battery bank lasts that long, at least the somewhat affordable batteries. If you discharge them more than 50 percent, I'm sure they wouldn't last nearly that long.

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Re: Solar Power

Post by ytrewq » February 24, 2018, 12:52 am

Off-grid only makes sense if the non-economic benefits (convenience or utility, for examples) outweigh costs, or if done at sufficient scale (village or town level). It will not make economic sense for most homes until Tesla batteries are available at a reasonable price.

Our on-grid + generator setup described previously is efficient, effective (nearly seamless), and achieves the payback goal. That said, my hope is Tesla will evolve its cars to fulfill the role of both transportation AND primary or backup home battery bank. There is a huge demographic of households (like mine) who rarely drive anywhere. I would certainly be a buyer should that happen because Tesla allows for perpetual battery replacement AND we want (not need) a new vehicle.

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Re: Solar Power

Post by minimiglia » February 24, 2018, 7:44 am

You will never get any pay back with a generator, very expensive to run, but so much better than no power during the frequent blackout in this country. but far cheaper than solar which would never run my aircon etc unless a massive battery bank is installed and never cost effective.

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Re: Solar Power

Post by minimiglia » February 24, 2018, 7:45 am

You will never get any pay back with a generator, very expensive to run, but so much better than no power during the frequent blackout in this country. but far cheaper than solar which would never run my aircon etc unless a massive battery bank is installed and never cost effective.

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Re: Solar Power

Post by rjj04 » February 24, 2018, 10:56 am

"Pay back" with a generator? Huh? One buys a generator for back-up power purposes, not to try to run it 24/7 thinking it will be cheaper than buying power from PEA.

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Re: Solar Power

Post by glalt » February 24, 2018, 11:17 am

I have a 5,000 watt generator at one of the farms. It is used to run a submersible well pump. The wife has many fruit trees that she waters. Inside the very small house there is a satellite dish, a TV, fan and lights. At first we ran the generator to power those things but the generator is very noisy and uses a lot of gasoline. I have a small solar system there that easily runs those things and the generator is used solely for the well pump so I have the best of both worlds. I had checked out a solar system big enough to run the water pump but the cost was certainly not cost effective. As it is, the generator runs for a couple of hours a week.

We were assured of having grid power there several years ago. The power company won't put in the grid power until there are several house built along the road. People won't build houses until there is grid power. Catch 22.

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Re: Solar Power

Post by Barney » February 25, 2018, 12:26 am

Barney wrote:Got my new to to buy now.
Will be looking into it when I get back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuZFG1R0hyY
These units come in 2 basic setups.
No battery and installed battery. Non battery produce enough power not to require grid power unless the unit is not producing enough. Battery type is used to supplement for the grid when panels are not producing. Batteries are for evening power. Charging commences in the morning when the panels are opened.
So generally no grid power required.
Yes most likely expensive. But they are not for everyone. Maybe 500,000 to a million baht.
I only posted to show what’s out there. They can charge your electric car.
Plus you can pack it up and take them with you if you move house. No need to worry about roof panels.
I saw them on the beach at Dubai today. Powering beach vendor huts and as a WiFi station and phone charge location.
Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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rjj04
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Re: Solar Power

Post by rjj04 » February 25, 2018, 11:02 am

Barney wrote:
February 25, 2018, 12:26 am
Barney wrote:Got my new to to buy now.
Will be looking into it when I get back.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuZFG1R0hyY
These units come in 2 basic setups.
No battery and installed battery. Non battery produce enough power not to require grid power unless the unit is not producing enough. Battery type is used to supplement for the grid when panels are not producing. Batteries are for evening power. Charging commences in the morning when the panels are opened.
So generally no grid power required.
Yes most likely expensive. But they are not for everyone. Maybe 500,000 to a million baht.
I only posted to show what’s out there. They can charge your electric car.
Plus you can pack it up and take them with you if you move house. No need to worry about roof panels.
I saw them on the beach at Dubai today. Powering beach vendor huts and as a WiFi station and phone charge location.
Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Looks like the Arabs are learning fast that they have another resource other than oil & gas... that's good, and they can afford solar flowers if they want them.

Anyway, this idea is a helluva lot more practical than solar roadways... what a joke they are.
https://www.treehugger.com/renewable-en ... -fail.html

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Re: Solar Power

Post by ytrewq » February 26, 2018, 7:14 am

Bypassing all the marketing blah, blah, blah, output is ~2 to 3 Kw/hr. If it were ~100k thb all-in, I think it would be worth it. But it's far more than that.

https://www.smartflower.com/en/techdata

It seems all the marketing is focused on aesthetics and novelty. Keeping up with the Jones' and whatnot...

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Re: Solar Power

Post by glalt » February 26, 2018, 9:20 am

There are much cheaper sun trackers available. With two or three regular solar panels, you would get the same or more power for a fraction of the cost. This Smartflower is a nifty device but far too expensive to be practical, $30,000 dollars? I wouldn't want to have to maintain the thing after the warranty expires. Way too many moving parts.

On the beach? I'd hate to think what the salt air would do to the device.

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