Income Letter

Post by **sometimewoodworker** » November 17, 2018, 9:55 am

Brian Davis wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 6:52 am

sometimewoodworker wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 2:34 am
For an extension based on marriage in Udon the 400,000 only needs 2 months seasoning.

Yeah, ok, perhaps this is from the Thai act/law paperwork, because I don't recall ever seeing a guidance leaflet from Immigration on marriage extension applications, only retirement.

Then you probably missed my post number 103 in this thread where I posted exactly that.

It is from Udon immigration. It is in Thai and English here is the first page

[attachment=0]IMG_5693-2.jpeg[/attachment]

Here is the link to my post
income-letter-t48616-103.html

Post by **LoneTraveler** » November 17, 2018, 10:05 am

Brian Davis wrote: ↑
November 16, 2018, 6:57 pm
I do wonder if we'll ever receive any further written guidance from Immigration and even if yes, it's never going to be comprehensive enough to answer all situations. I agree that it's really not good enough that we may have to hope word of mouth through forums like this proves reliable and doesn't turn out differently for whatever reason on the day you go.

With the doubt and that it gives me some peace of mind, I'm going ahead on the basis of meeting all possible options for a marriage extension a) Embassy income letter - UK embassy confirmed in Thai Law it's valid for 6 months, but no confirmation yet Immigration will still accept it;b) I've moved 400,000 lump from my wife's account back to mine(savings a/c) - just in time for 3 months (or is it only two required?) before extension renewal due. I MAY be questioned about where the money has come from, but our ONLY income is from UK pensions, so it ORIGINATED abroad and c) the regular monthly income into my account, which has always exceeded 40,000 baht per month. I'm still not certain here that regular income is an acceptable method, rather than lump sum ONLY, for a marriage extension. So there's extra time and expense in organising that, fee for Embassy, fee for the bank in obtaining all the backup letters/statements.

Sorry if I'm thrashing this guys, but was there any mention of the "income letter" on your visit to Immigration, Lone Traveler? After all, if ok, this would give many of us some breathing space to sort out alternative arrangements.

Hi Yes Immigration did say they would accept an Embassy Income verification letter because the man ahead of me asked if he went to Bangkok for the letter the next day, would they honor it, the response was yes. So I guess if you get a letter from now until end of December they will honor it for up to 6 months.

Post by **sometimewoodworker** » November 17, 2018, 10:17 am

semperfiguy wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 9:24 am
There's one more point on which I am confused, so perhaps someone out there could shed some light. Almost every time I have read reference to the requirements for a marriage extension of stay, it seems to be saying that the monthly income stream has to come from that which is generated from within Thailand by way of a work permit. I have all along thought that it doesn't matter where the income originates.

Even the language used on the Thai Immigration website could be interpreted in different ways. For example:

For the Retirement extension of stay:
Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month

For the Marriage extension of stay:
In the case of marriage to a Thai women, the alien must earn an annual income of no less than Baht 40,000 per month. (earning money implies obtaining money in return for labor or services....this according to the dictionary....thus the assumption of working in Thailand with a work permit. "Having an annual income of no less than" also implies averaging of the months, whereas that implication is not made in reference to the monthly requirement for the Retirement extension where it seems to be saying that each month must produce at least 65,000 with no averaging)

These are just some of the points where it gets very confusing, so is there any wonder why Immigration Officers are
never in agreement on the rules and regs and their interpretation.

All this confusion could be caused by a mistranslation of Thai into English on the government's websites. It would be interesting to see the requirements in the Thai language and have a qualified translator then explain them to us in English.

As you wish this is from Udon immigration. Section 4 refers to income from work in Thailand, section 5 refers to pension.

Here is the Udon translation of section 5 As you can see there is a very important mistake where there should be the word or not and.

Do note that translation is an art not a science so different translators will have subtly or substantially different translations. So get 2 or 3 independent professional translations and you will probably have 2 or 3 equally correct but different translations.

This is why the Thai wording always takes precedence.

What we are seeing now could easily be a case of a different reading of the original Thai, no change in law just a different translation.

Post by **Isaanfarang** » November 17, 2018, 11:46 am

Is there a Danish member here? I would like to know whether documents had to be submitted to the Danish embassy to issue an income certificate? Or was an affidavit sufficient, like at the American Embassy?

As a German I am not concerned yet, but I get the feeling there are things going around that at the end might affect ALL foreign residents in Thailand.

Post by **Brian Davis** » November 17, 2018, 4:20 pm

sometimewoodworker wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 9:55 am
Then you probably missed my post number 103 in this thread where I posted exactly that.

Yes, I did, or didn't look accurately enough. My apologies now tendered. As i have three copies of the retirement leaflet, I also failed to collect one on an Immigration visit. Next time. Yup, the English translation could be written more clearly.

LoneTraveler wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 10:05 am
Hi Yes Immigration did say they would accept an Embassy Income verification letter because the man ahead of me asked if he went to Bangkok for the letter the next day, would they honor it, the response was yes. So I guess if you get a letter from now until end of December they will honor it for up to 6 months.

Thanks, sounds good, although there's no indication when the man was going to return to Immigration with an application. As Immigration is introducing new procedures from February, I don't see any problem before then. It's what Immigration decides from February on which matters, so I'd be a bit happier if the guy said he would return in e.g. April. I appreciate I may be over concerned and over complicating, BUT if it's correct that Udon Immigration received some information from Bangkok, only getting back to ask for further explanation/guidance, then they're confused on some issues too!

Post by **RLTrader** » November 17, 2018, 5:21 pm

From another site

Just stopped in Immigration in Pathum Thani.

As of 1 Jan 2019. Only way to renew a retirement visa is to have 800,000 in a Thai bank for 3 month in a single (your name only) account. If joint account with spouse, the amount doubles.

No monthly pay records or other documentation will suffice.

Hmm, I see a flooded market in Home, Car, and bike sales in 2019. Buyer's Market.

Post by **sometimewoodworker** » November 17, 2018, 5:26 pm

Brian Davis wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 4:20 pm

As Immigration is introducing new procedures from February, I don't see any problem before then. It's what Immigration decides from February on which matters,

Do please let me know where you have information about new procedures being introduced, I haven't seen anything about that and would like to be current.

Post by **LoneTraveler** » November 18, 2018, 10:15 am

RLTrader wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 5:21 pm
From another site

Just stopped in Immigration in Pathum Thani.

As of 1 Jan 2019. Only way to renew a retirement visa is to have 800,000 in a Thai bank for 3 month in a single (your name only) account. If joint account with spouse, the amount doubles.

No monthly pay records or other documentation will suffice.

Hmm, I see a flooded market in Home, Car, and bike sales in 2019. Buyer's Market.

I would like to know of a way to track how many foreigners leave because they can not meet the Immigration income requirement as of July 01 2019. And to know how many foreigners who were planning to retire in Thailand in the near further decide to go elsewhere or, stay put in their home countries because of the uncertainty of future Immigration policies. And the direct deposit of funds situation which will no longer be accepted by Bangkok Bank NY in the current ACH format after April 01, 2019.

I have decided to go for the 800000 in a Thai bank because of the uncertainty after 01 Jan. 2019. I will have a tight budget for the next 7 months but at least it will be worth it rather than waiting on Immigration clarification as to whether they will accept 65000 monthly in bank. My mistake, was assuming the income letter of verification would be accepted into eternity. I did not factor in TIT.

Although, there was a period when I was in Jomtien maybe 6 or 7 years ago that Immigration required a bank letter same day as application, bank book updated, copy of credit card and the Embassy income verification letter for an extension. Perhaps someone remembers this scenario.

Post by **Brian Davis** » November 18, 2018, 11:43 am

sometimewoodworker wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 5:26 pm

Brian Davis wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 4:20 pm

As Immigration is introducing new procedures from February, I don't see any problem before then. It's what Immigration decides from February on which matters,
Do please let me know where you have information about new procedures being introduced, I haven't seen anything about that and would like to be current.

Ah, do I sense some sarcasm? Ok, I’ll bite – perhaps you prefer “Immigration has introduced a new procedure not accepting income letters”! It seems your dealings with Immigration have always gone wonderfully well, you’re entirely sure of the interpretation of details and you’ve never had any ‘surprises’ with an Officer seeing things differently. Good for you.
This change, if that’s the word you prefer, has caused many to consider that whatever alternative they choose to use in lieu of the income letter doesn’t fall down at Immigration because of “small print”, different interpretation of details, or just not doing it the way Immigration insists upon. And don’t they love red tape, although there are ways around that! Of course, much of the small print is never actually written down anyway, but acquired by word of mouth, or through forums such as this.
So there is, apparently, guidance issued at of Bangkok, but local Immigration Offices have raised queries. The basic systems/rules may not differ, but interpretations may, particularly in relation to what has occurred before, if the Army/Police are ‘tightening up’ e.g. as I understand it, they want to ensure money is brought into Thailand, not made here, at least not unofficially. So, I suggest the way Immigration sees things and acts MAY be different. I’d call that a new procedure(interpretation), you wouldn’t. And I’d be very surprised if Immigration produces further written information, rather than the basic information in leaflets.
Anyway, enough of this. Id like to think foreigners are armed (no, not literally) with accurate information to support an application, although I feel some things will have to be dragged out of Immigration, rather than it being openly published.

Post by **sometimewoodworker** » November 18, 2018, 2:26 pm

Brian Davis wrote: ↑
November 18, 2018, 11:43 am

sometimewoodworker wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 5:26 pm

Brian Davis wrote: ↑
November 17, 2018, 4:20 pm

As Immigration is introducing new procedures from February, I don't see any problem before then. It's what Immigration decides from February on which matters,
Do please let me know where you have information about new procedures being introduced, I haven't seen anything about that and would like to be current.
Ah, do I sense some sarcasm? Ok, I’ll bite –

None at all, a genuine request for information as nobody else has mentioned anything different than is already being discussed. No changes that have been mentioned about immigration procedures and nothing about February, (embassy's are making changes not immigration, at least not publicly, so far)

I thought you had something new.

Post by **Lone Star** » November 18, 2018, 2:29 pm

LoneTraveler wrote: ↑
November 18, 2018, 10:15 am

. . .

I have decided to go for the 800000 in a Thai bank because of the uncertainty after 01 Jan. 2019. I will have a tight budget for the next 7 months but at least it will be worth it rather than waiting on Immigration clarification as to whether they will accept 65000 monthly in bank.

. . .

Based on my bi-weekly checks with Udon Immigration, this is probably the safest bet for approval as of this writing. Good move.

As this process evolves, there may be other options, but there is no definitive timeline for that to happen. Head on a swivel. Prepare for anything.

Post by **LoneTraveler** » November 18, 2018, 3:52 pm

Lone Star wrote: ↑
November 18, 2018, 2:29 pm

LoneTraveler wrote: ↑
November 18, 2018, 10:15 am

. . .

I have decided to go for the 800000 in a Thai bank because of the uncertainty after 01 Jan. 2019. I will have a tight budget for the next 7 months but at least it will be worth it rather than waiting on Immigration clarification as to whether they will accept 65000 monthly in bank.

. . .

Based on my bi-weekly checks with Udon Immigration, this is probably the safest bet for approval as of this writing. Good move.

As this process evolves, there may be other options, but there is no definitive timeline for that to happen. Head on a swivel. Prepare for anything.

At this point immigration policy has been very clear for as many years as I have been here, however, The income verification letter made it a lot easier for the extension(s). I always had a feeling that something was going to change either they would increase the yearly amount or have incomes verify through Bank statement and books. SO I am not too surprised as to what is happening now.

However one thing that has been bugging me is this issue of BKK bank no longer accepting ACH money transfers. I thought this was a new law required by the US treasury to take effect April 01 2019. The fact is, all fund transfers were required to be in IAT format for US government pensions and others as well. ACH transfer of funds is from my bank in NY to BKK bank in NY and is considered a domestic transfer. Therefore Bangkok will no longer accept my ACH domestic transfer because my bank says they will not send funds out in IAT format only receive them. But, Social Security payments were required to be in IAT format as of September 18 2009. Hense the Identify issue of having to have to present passport to obtain fund, part of the IAT format requirement. So it is that Bangkok Bank will not accept domestic ACH transfers effective April 01 2019 but make accept social security because it should be transferred to BKK in IAT format as of September 18 2009. Check the info on the web sites to see if I have interpreted this information correctly.
Familiarize yourself with new NACHA rules related to international ACH transactions. You need to google this as well as www.nacha.org I hope someone can agree with me on interpreting this information. My next stop is to go to BKK bank in udon and get a printout of my last transfer to verify the format that the SSA is send funds.

Sorry for the long winded response but that issue of ACH vs IAT format was really bothering me and I was not reading any information to clarify what that entailed. It is BKK in NY that is the problem with domestic ACH transfers of funds.

Post by **LoneTraveler** » November 18, 2018, 3:59 pm

One thing I just though of as I was writing concerning SSA benefit funds may be considered a domestic ACH transfer because it is going to BKK in NY. It looks like I have to look into further.

Post by **LoneTraveler** » November 18, 2018, 4:09 pm

SSA benefit payments that are sent overseas from within the US need to be in IAT format so the question remains, are the SSA benefits being sent to BKK in NY considered domestic ACH transfers or are they considered payments overseas which required IAT format. I asked the SSA in Manila that very question but I have not received a response yet. OK I just gave myself a headache.

Post by **Lone Star** » November 18, 2018, 4:18 pm

LoneTraveler wrote: ↑
November 18, 2018, 3:52 pm

. . .

However one thing that has been bugging me is this issue of BKK bank no longer accepting ACH money transfers. I thought this was a new law required by the US treasury to take effect April 01 2019. The fact is, all fund transfers were required to be in IAT format for US government pensions and others as well. ACH transfer of funds is from my bank in NY to BKK bank in NY and is considered a domestic transfer. Therefore Bangkok will no longer accept my ACH domestic transfer because my bank says they will not send funds out in IAT format only receive them. But, Social Security payments were required to be in IAT format as of September 18 2009. Hense the Identify issue of having to have to present passport to obtain fund, part of the IAT format requirement. So it is that Bangkok Bank will not accept domestic ACH transfers effective April 01 2019 but make accept social security because it should be transferred to BKK in IAT format as of September 18 2009. Check the info on the web sites to see if I have interpreted this information correctly.
Familiarize yourself with new NACHA rules related to international ACH transactions. You need to google this as well as www.nacha.org I hope someone can agree with me on interpreting this information. My next stop is to go to BKK bank in udon and get a printout of my last transfer to verify the format that the SSA is send funds.

Sorry for the long winded response but that issue of ACH vs IAT format was really bothering me and I was not reading any information to clarify what that entailed. It is BKK in NY that is the problem with domestic ACH transfers of funds.

From the day I set foot here -- over 10 years ago now -- I always used the income letter for immigration's requirement for income verification.

I also never used any type of international ACH or IAT or even wire transfers to Thailand banks for the purpose of any immigration income requirement. I've always had an ATM card that refunds all international ATM fees every month, so I just made ATM withdrawals to get monthly operating cash from my US banks.

I'll go take a look at those links you provided in order to be prepared for anything. Thanks!

Just an opinion here, but I think anything that is going to require any intense analysis on the part of an IO -- like examining monthly deposits (whether reflecting an international source or just a cash deposit) -- is going to be too much work. I'm only saying this due to my witnessing their imploring of foreigners to go the "retirement visa" route rather than the "marriage visa" route with its voluminous paperwork and time processing. I can just imagine the time of going through a year of deposits and withdrawals and calculations of same to meet the requirement. However, I could be completely wrong about this prediction; and I will be shocked if they agree to this exercise. But I already have a simple plan to take advantage of this should the monthly bank book transactions be acceptable.

And then there is the forever present fact that the IO has the final say on everything anyway -- as has been pointed out by our friend in Nong Khai, who weren't allowed to use an income letter for quite a long time.

Safest bet today: money (400,000 or 800,000) in the bank 3 months before renewal unless my neighborhood IO tells me otherwise.

Post by **Lone Star** » November 18, 2018, 4:20 pm

LoneTraveler wrote: ↑
November 18, 2018, 3:59 pm
One thing I just though of as I was writing concerning SSA benefit funds may be considered a domestic ACH transfer because it is going to BKK in NY. It looks like I have to look into further.

Yes, I had the same thought. Since the branch is in the US, it is a domestic transaction.

Post by **Stantheman** » November 18, 2018, 11:53 pm

Lone Star wrote: ↑
November 18, 2018, 4:20 pm

LoneTraveler wrote: ↑
November 18, 2018, 3:59 pm
One thing I just though of as I was writing concerning SSA benefit funds may be considered a domestic ACH transfer because it is going to BKK in NY. It looks like I have to look into further.
Yes, I had the same thought. Since the branch is in the US, it is a domestic transaction.

Why don't transfer directly to your Bangkok Bank account in Thailand from SSA, bypassing their New York office. The fees to convert from dollars to baht would be the same and you would not be charged the small fee charged by the New York office.

Post by **mak** » November 19, 2018, 7:05 am

Useful info from Thaivisa:

If you have a US SSA direct deposit, the FIRST CONCERN is to find out if you are set up for IAT format or not. The easy way is to go direct to your Bangkok Bank branch. Have them pull up your accounts on their computer, then pull up the most recent direct deposit transaction. They can then pull up details of that transaction. On the details page look on the right had side toward the middle of the page, there are some codes. If you see IAT-Th, then you are OK. Your direct deposit is in the correct format and will continue as normal after April 1, 2019. Not all SSA direct deposits are in IAT format. Apparently some direct deposits were set up incorrectly (see preceding post) so you may not be OK. Your best recourse would be as per the above post and call SSA Baltimore. I have talked with SSA in Manilla and they won't even bother to check what the format is, let alone assist with correcting it. Bangkok Bank New York also will only tell you to talk to SSA and not even check your format for you.

Post by **mak** » November 19, 2018, 7:09 am

--The current BKKB system for domestic ACH transfers from the U.S. to Thailand via their NY branch is ENDING as of April 1, 2019. The online U.S. ACH domestic transfers you have been doing all along to BKKB NY will no longer function after that point.

--The end of the current domestic ACH transfers system for the NY branch, according to BKKB, will have NO IMPACT on the current Social Security and any other federal government direct deposit arrangements already existing thru BKKB.

From Thaivisa:
I am currently in the process of changing my direct deposit accounts with the SSA. And I noticed something:

It isn't to do with addresses. It's the way Bangkok Bank processes your paperwork when you first open a direct deposit acc. or change to a new one. When you apply, in Thailand, for a U.S. SSI direct deposit account the Thai bank (in Thailand) fill out a 1199A form they keep on hand, which is the standard U.S. gov 'Direct Deposit Signup Form.'

Section 1 is filled out by the payee. Section 2 is filled out by the payee or financial institution. Section 3 is to be filled out by the Banking institution.. that's where the problem is, and that's where IAT or domestic will come in: I've found some banks (like my old branch up in Udon Thani) fill the main part in section 3: 'Name and address of financial institution' .. with the Bangkok Bank Public Co. Limited, New York City. And not the local Thai branch or your local bank, where you will receive your money!

If they fill out Section of the 1199A this way, it will be processed by SSA as 'domestic!' As 'New York' is domestic.. What you want to happen is to ensure that your bank branch in Thailand, where you might apply or change your direct deposit acc., fills this part of section 3 in with the their local Thai branch address, in Thailand, and Not use the New York address! .. like they did with mine up in Udon, when I first applied!

I just got off the phone after a 2 hr. call to Baltimore with the SSA Office of International Operations, where I found out my account is Not IAT, but indeed domestic. I have long moved and am now changing my direct deposit acc. to my new location farther south.

After leaving the bank branch just yesterday with my new acc. no. and a copy of my 1199A, I see they too, same as 2 years back in Udon, filled in section 3 using the New York Bangkok Bank address along with the routing no., which stays same.. SSA in Baltimore told me to go back and have them change section 3 to reflect the local Thai branch address, as per IAT requirements. Then they will have the correct local foreign branch address. So, back to the bank tomorrow. Then I will fax this to Baltimore as instructed, and hope for the best..

Post by **LoneTraveler** » November 19, 2018, 9:54 am

mak wrote: ↑
November 19, 2018, 7:05 am
Useful info from Thaivisa:

If you have a US SSA direct deposit, the FIRST CONCERN is to find out if you are set up for IAT format or not. The easy way is to go direct to your Bangkok Bank branch. Have them pull up your accounts on their computer, then pull up the most recent direct deposit transaction. They can then pull up details of that transaction. On the details page look on the right had side toward the middle of the page, there are some codes. If you see IAT-Th, then you are OK. Your direct deposit is in the correct format and will continue as normal after April 1, 2019. Not all SSA direct deposits are in IAT format. Apparently some direct deposits were set up incorrectly (see preceding post) so you may not be OK. Your best recourse would be as per the above post and call SSA Baltimore. I have talked with SSA in Manilla and they won't even bother to check what the format is, let alone assist with correcting it. Bangkok Bank New York also will only tell you to talk to SSA and not even check your format for you.

Yes, I just received a response for SSA in Manila, it appears they cannot determine a general question vs a specific question about my account. To answer a general question concerning ACH transfer and IAT transfer. They want all the personal information I gave them when I applied for SS benefits before they will answer any questions.

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