Amber phase of red lights Udon

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bumper
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Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by bumper » December 14, 2009, 12:41 pm

60 MPH = 88 fps. (fps=1.467 * MPH). If the vehicle deceleration rate is 20 fpsps (rather than the previously calculated 15 fps), then stopping time = 88/20 = 4.4 seconds. Since there is a 1 second delay (driver reaction time) in hitting your brakes (both recognition and reaction time is often 2 seconds), the total time to stop is 5.4 seconds to 6.4 seconds.

To determine how far the vehicle will travel while braking, use the formula of 1/2 the initial velocity multiplied by the time required to stop. In this case, this works out to be .5 * 88 * 4.4 = 193.6 feet, plus a reaction time of either 88 feet for a second delay in reaction time, or 176 feet for two seconds reaction time. That yields 281.6 feet or 369.6 when added to the base stopping distance of 193.6 feet. If the driver is very responsive and takes only a half a second to react, the distance is reduced to 237.6 feet. Notice that the reaction time is a huge factor since it is at initial velocity.


Roughly 96 Klms per hour, note 1/2 second reaction time. This is assuming a normal vehicle with good tires and brakes. On a good roiad surface, no oil or water.

Rare for someone to have that kind of reaction time, one second for most of us would probably be more accurate. Now figure how much more distance for a heavy truck stop. I think it's to imagine that 6.4 seconds is far to short of a time to stop in a truck traveling 90 Klms an hour. Time the amper lights at out intersections on Ring Raod adn it;s eay to see why run light are ran even by good drivers.

Good reason to check both direction even on a green light before entering a intersection. I doubt any intersection in Udon has a sufficient enough amber phase to stop safely at the speed limit.



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jackspratt
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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by jackspratt » December 14, 2009, 12:56 pm

I have real doubts that increasing the length of the amber phase will make much difference.

You already see many motor bikes take off when the see the amber light come on for the other direction.

It won't take long for drivers with the green/amber light in their favour to figure out the increased window of opportunity, and an even greater incentive to plant the foot when they see it.

The point people seem to be missing about amber lights is that you should not be approaching the green light at full speed, in the hope that if it turns amber you will still have sufficient time to stop.

Not that it is likely to happen here, but drivers (particularly of large vehicles) should have their foot off the accelerator as the approach traffic lights ie decelerating.

Some red light cameras at all the main intersections on the ring road would do wonders, particularly if there was a 10,000 baht fine and 3 month suspension attached for a truck/bus going through a red light. Or maybe even impoundment of the vehicle for 28 days. =D>

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BobHelm
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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by BobHelm » December 14, 2009, 12:58 pm

As bumper points out a vehicle must be allowed time to clear the junction if he is driving within the legal limits.
However, I think it is a great pity that the lights on the ring road do not have the "count down" system installed on them, the same as many do in town.
I was not used to them before I came to Udon & when I first saw them I thought they were a bad idea as they might encourage people to speed up to try & beat them. In fact, personally, I have found the opposite to be true. When I approach a green counting down that it is obvious I am not going to make, the foot comes off the accelerator almost immediately & I cruise up to a stop. Like wise when waiting at red I find it considerable less frustrating to know how long I am going to wait.

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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by bumper » December 14, 2009, 1:05 pm

No I think the point to consider here is we have no control over how the amber phase is set, or if another driver pays attention or not. The only control we have is in what we do. Me I will wait and make sure the intersection is clear. If I'm not day dreaming as well.

To me being dead or injuried and being right doesn't matter much.

I know what the risks are I have to adjust.

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jackspratt
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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by jackspratt » December 14, 2009, 1:13 pm

In West Oz now they are using a system of large yellow signs, with amber lights, that are situated about 200m from major intersections. They warn you (amber lights flash) that the lights will be red by the time you get to the junction. Also used for train crossings.

They are very effective.

But again, I question whether if they were used here, it would just be a signal for the driver to plant his/her foot :confused:
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rjj04
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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by rjj04 » December 14, 2009, 4:57 pm

Part of the reason people run red lights here is that often they must wait for stupid lights. That is, the government spends money to install counters showing the time you must wait...tick tock, tick tock. What benefit is that, except perhaps for pedestrians. The timers just seem to make you more likely to run a red light. Why don't they spend the money on inductive loop sensors in the tarmac, and change the traffic light algorithms from simple timed sequencing to a demand driven (with fairness) algorithm using sensors? So far, I don't think I have seen one semi intelligent traffic light in Issan. I think that would cut down on the red light runners, not eliminate them, but cut down quite a bit I suspect. Also saves a lot of fuel for the citizenry.

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Aardvark
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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by Aardvark » December 14, 2009, 5:28 pm

I disagree, and so do most of the people I know :evil: That timed lighting that you hate so much is a Blessing to the rest of us =D> I personally wish it was in my own country as I think it acts as a relaxant to know how much time you have to wait. =D>

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rjj04
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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by rjj04 » December 14, 2009, 5:46 pm

So it is say 11pm, and you pulled up to a light that just turned red, and there is no other traffic to be seen for miles... tick tock, tick tock... and you wait for a couple of minutes. You do not think that it would be better if the light was intelligent enough to see that you were the only traffic and thus it turned green for you quickly? To each there own, but I see many people on motorbikes taking off because they don't want to wait for NO DARN REASON.... I wait, because I do not want to make a mistake and get plowed over by a bus. The whole time I wait though, I am wondering, why. :badteeth:

Did you miss the video that was on another thread... showing people running red lights and dying because of it? If you stop even a few percentage of people from wanting to jump the gun, and making a mistake, and winding up six feet under, that is worth more than the price of the sensors. Those timers you love are CAUSING deaths IMHO. The teenagers and drunks don't want to relax at the light. [-(

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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by lee » December 14, 2009, 6:55 pm

I think the count down timers are a good idea. I've been caught out several times at junctions on the ring-road. The lights turn to orange and then red in a slit second, and its not always possible to stop in time. If a timer was in place you could prepare to stop or continue through.

The traffic light censors would be a good idea also, especially at night when there's not so much traffic.

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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by BangkokButcher » December 14, 2009, 7:04 pm

rjj04 wrote:Why don't they spend the money on inductive loop sensors in the tarmac, and change the traffic light algorithms from simple timed sequencing to a demand driven (with fairness) algorithm using sensors? So far, I don't think I have seen one semi intelligent traffic light in Issan.
Obviously due to financial restrictions of some kind, but they would indeed be an asset to have around here.

Other than that, the only other solution I can think of to prevent red light runners as jackspratt mentioned, would be to have cameras on every set of traffic lights around town and offenders running the red should be issued with a fine in the post. I'm sure that would make them think twice...

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BKKSTAN
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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by BKKSTAN » December 14, 2009, 7:11 pm

rjj04 wrote:Part of the reason people run red lights here is that often they must wait for stupid lights. That is, the government spends money to install counters showing the time you must wait...tick tock, tick tock. What benefit is that, except perhaps for pedestrians. The timers just seem to make you more likely to run a red light. Why don't they spend the money on inductive loop sensors in the tarmac, and change the traffic light algorithms from simple timed sequencing to a demand driven (with fairness) algorithm using sensors? So far, I don't think I have seen one semi intelligent traffic light in Issan. I think that would cut down on the red light runners, not eliminate them, but cut down quite a bit I suspect. Also saves a lot of fuel for the citizenry.
Timed lights as they are now,seem to just prime Thai drivers to get off the mark first,like a drag race.Especially when the police are not into enforcing laws fairly or accurately.The drivers know that unless the police have an organized setup in the area,they are not going to pursue violators!
I agree with you,about stupid lights also,waiting at a light for 120 ticks when there is no traffic,invites people to develop habits that may be displayed when there is traffic! :roll:

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Brian Davis
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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by Brian Davis » December 14, 2009, 7:30 pm

I would argue that the phasing of many traffic lights here is not set correctly. Many appear to go from green to red with hardly any time on amber. My recollection of UK lights was what? 1.5 seconds on amber, which helps in your judgment of whether to keep going or brake. I think it's a contributory factor of many red lights being 'broken' even by conscientious drivers. The alternative is to brake so hard to comply with the red that it's dangerous in itself. ( I stand to be corrected, but THINK that the UK Highway Code states single amber actually means stop too, but, as above, sometimes that's impossible). But, of course, driving tests here are farcical anyway.

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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by FrazeeDK » December 15, 2009, 6:14 am

red light cameras: would they really help?? How many motorcycles on the road have bogus plates? how to mail tickets? How to collect the fines? How to go after folks that don't pay? I believe they're being used in Bangkok, but to what effect I don't know.

inductive sensors: are they sensitive enough to pick up small bikes or tuk-tuks?

perhaps better would be traffic analysis to set up light changes based on day of week/time of day traffic flow.

the timers?? I like them as they give me a heads up both ways, starting and stopping..

aggravation.. when the Police decide to manually run lights (particularly in BKK) and they let traffic from one direction run for 10-15 minutes..

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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by Galee » December 15, 2009, 7:45 am

There's lots of places in Udon, especially on the ring road, where you could get rid of this problem by replacing the lights with roundabouts. Unfortunately, with the Thai mentality of never giving way to another driver on the road, it would probably lead to mayhem. You would probably get more bumps and dents but fewer fatalities.

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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by trubrit » December 15, 2009, 3:37 pm

What I find more confusing is when they switch the lights from all directions to flashing red . Where thev hell is that in the highway code ?

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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by parrot » December 15, 2009, 4:46 pm

"There's lots of places in Udon, especially on the ring road, where you could get rid of this problem by replacing the lights with roundabouts. Unfortunately, with the Thai mentality of never giving way to another driver on the road, it would probably lead to mayhem. You would probably get more bumps and dents but fewer fatalities."

The only time the traffic is messed up in the roundabouts about town are when the cops are directing traffic at the statue circle. Otherwise, the circles beat lights by a long shot and the only accidents you see are bumps and dents.

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BobHelm
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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by BobHelm » December 15, 2009, 4:56 pm

They should be flashing red on one set & flashing amber on the other set - usually used when little traffic is expected on the crossing.
The flashing red means that you may proceed through the intersection with caution but do not have priority over any other traffic on the intersection. (Bit like a STOP sign at a junction.)
The flashing amber means that you should proceed through the intersection with caution, but you do have priority over any vehicle coming through on flashing red.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_va ... _operation

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UdonExpat
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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by UdonExpat » December 15, 2009, 6:43 pm

I'd be happy if the lights had functioning bulbs in them.

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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by lee » December 15, 2009, 6:53 pm

The red light near Nong Bua night market is white. :shock: Anything in the highway code about stopping at white lights? :D

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Re: Amber phase of red lights Udon

Post by Khun Paul » December 15, 2009, 8:51 pm

With regard to roundabouts, at some locationsthey have had the intelligence to put them in albeit small ones, however due to the Thai mentality and complate lack of driving ability going around a roundabout can at times be even worse than traffic lights, I remember I was almost smaked into by a bus which decided that even though I was on the Prince Prajak roundabout due to its size, it had the right of way, I did not give way and he did stop JUST. In fact I just sat there in complete amazement and breathed a sigh of relief.
So although roundabouts may seem to be the logical move in this country nothing logical will deal with any situation at junctions....a sad fact but true.

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