Conscription Rules

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papafarang
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Conscription Rules

Post by papafarang » March 11, 2016, 4:15 am

immo are a strange bunch, young American/thai kid I know moved to Thailand with his mum who got deported from the states. after a few years he started selling property in pattaya, all was going well for him until Christmas when the immo discovered his mother had been stabbed to death in udon province, he's actually married to a thai too, but recently they refused him a work permit and he was out of a job and back on a tourist visa, being only 21 he has no way of getting a marriage visa due to lack of funds, he flew back to the states a couple of weeks ago where he has no relatives at all and nowhere to go, no qualifications as he moved to Thailand when he was 13. bit sad really . just had news he's trying to join the US army. now that's called getting the shitty end of the stick. apparently they said he could give up his American citizenship, but he decided better to go back instead. one bright side is that if all goes well joining the army his wife will be able to move to the states too. as he put it the other day on facebook " yet another life adventure" ... I always laughed at him as it was pretty hard for him here as his name really made him stick out, he had a thai id card with the name Shaun McCoy on it lol


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Post by Techland » March 11, 2016, 8:42 am

Confusing post. How can he have a thai ID card when he is no thai citizen? Anyway, needing to enter with a tourist visa means he indeed has no thai passport. Having a thai mother it should have been zero problem to get that, and with 13 (until 18) nobody would have asked about giving up the american citizenship. Looks like missed opportunities to me.

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Post by papafarang » March 11, 2016, 9:24 am

not sure on all the small print, all I knew was he was born in the US, but his mother never became a citizen, his mother got involved with the wrong types there and ended up many years locked up, he ended up in child services and when she was released his choice was go with her or stay in child services. sadly when she came here she did the same and ended up being murdered during a drug deal, . I think the ID card was to do with the fact he had to join the school system here. unusual place to find yourself 16 year old American, no relatives in the states, no connections here. but he decided to stay , managed to get a job selling condos to tourists, then all went wrong last year, no more work permit so no choice but to go back to the states sadly. guessing he kept his US passport and no one noticed until it came up his mother had died and he was still a US citizen. as I say not sure on the detail, but basically Johnny foreigner was not allowed to sell property . I wished him well in his new life, he has limited opportunities in the states so he decided to go for the military and he's hoping he can get his wife to the states too
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Post by fatbob » March 11, 2016, 9:51 am

My son gets his Thai ID card next year at age of 7, he then holds Thai Passport, Thai ID and Aust passport, a duel citizen. At the age of 18 or 21 unfortunately he under Thai law must choose one or the other, under Aust law he can be a dual citizen for ever. Years ago I expected the Thai gov to change this law, I now under present circumstances expect the age to more than likely be reduced!
So in short Techland that is how he held a Thai ID card.

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Post by papafarang » March 11, 2016, 10:27 am

that's what I was guessing, I know he showed me his ID card as we laughed about him being American, with an irish name living in Thailand, anyway he got sussed, funny though he worked for the same company for a few years, but when they worked out he had an American passport he needed a work permit, which of course they refused. I think he's 23 now so from 16-21 he worked legally as a thai, but keeping his American passport meant the end . personally I think it was right move to stay an American citizen , brighter future , but I know he was sad to have to leave a place he lived in nearly half his life
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Post by JohnG » March 11, 2016, 11:43 pm

coxo wrote:My son gets his Thai ID card next year at age of 7, he then holds Thai Passport, Thai ID and Aust passport, a duel citizen. At the age of 18 or 21 unfortunately he under Thai law must choose one or the other, under Aust law he can be a dual citizen for ever. Years ago I expected the Thai gov to change this law, I now under present circumstances expect the age to more than likely be reduced!
So in short Techland that is how he held a Thai ID card.
I am reliably informed that's incorrect coxo - the most he will ever be asked to do at the moment is produce an 'intention to revoke' certificate from the Australian embassy; Thailand will also automatically inform the Oz embassy that he's Thai (not that they will care!).

The problem comes if both countries have conscription and you have to do both at the same time (!), which obviously doesn't apply as Oz doesn't, or if he wants to use his Oz nationality to avoid conscription. As long as he's happy to take his chances with conscription it's not a problem.

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Post by JohnG » March 11, 2016, 11:48 pm

papafarang wrote:not sure on all the small print, all I knew was he was born in the US, but his mother never became a citizen, his mother got involved with the wrong types there and ended up many years locked up, he ended up in child services and when she was released his choice was go with her or stay in child services. sadly when she came here she did the same and ended up being murdered during a drug deal, . I think the ID card was to do with the fact he had to join the school system here. unusual place to find yourself 16 year old American, no relatives in the states, no connections here. but he decided to stay , managed to get a job selling condos to tourists, then all went wrong last year, no more work permit so no choice but to go back to the states sadly. guessing he kept his US passport and no one noticed until it came up his mother had died and he was still a US citizen. as I say not sure on the detail, but basically Johnny foreigner was not allowed to sell property . I wished him well in his new life, he has limited opportunities in the states so he decided to go for the military and he's hoping he can get his wife to the states too
Looks like he didn't want to register for conscription. His choice.

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Post by papafarang » March 12, 2016, 12:19 am

JohnG wrote:
papafarang wrote:not sure on all the small print, all I knew was he was born in the US, but his mother never became a citizen, his mother got involved with the wrong types there and ended up many years locked up, he ended up in child services and when she was released his choice was go with her or stay in child services. sadly when she came here she did the same and ended up being murdered during a drug deal, . I think the ID card was to do with the fact he had to join the school system here. unusual place to find yourself 16 year old American, no relatives in the states, no connections here. but he decided to stay , managed to get a job selling condos to tourists, then all went wrong last year, no more work permit so no choice but to go back to the states sadly. guessing he kept his US passport and no one noticed until it came up his mother had died and he was still a US citizen. as I say not sure on the detail, but basically Johnny foreigner was not allowed to sell property . I wished him well in his new life, he has limited opportunities in the states so he decided to go for the military and he's hoping he can get his wife to the states too
Looks like he didn't want to register for conscription. His choice.
yeh guess so. that's why he went back to the states and signed up there instead :shock: good choice I think, US army or Thai army....let me think about that for a second :lol:
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Post by mr passout » March 12, 2016, 7:32 am

Thaksin and Abbishit both have Dual Citizenship as do plenty of Thai actors and Doctors and politicians and so on.
I think it depends on how they interprete the law.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/883 ... d-allowed/
For those with half Thai children the Act provides for them to surrender Thai nationality on a voluntary basis between their 20th and 21st birthday. Many government officials will tell you it is compulsory for them to surrender Thai nationality at that point (and may wish it were so), if they wish to retain their foreign nationality, but that is simply not what the law says, nor how it is interpreted in practice. The Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs is fully supportive of dual nationality and will give every assistance to half Thais living abroad. In fact they seem to encourage them to take up and maintain their Thai nationality in addition to the nationality of the country where they reside. The MoFA states clearly on its website that dual nationality is neither expressly allowed or prohibited under Thai law and that whether you can hold dual nationality or not depends only on whether the other country prohibits it or not. It even provides instructions to dual Thai nationals as to how juggle passports when travelling.

Anyway that's my bit,please don't shoot the messenger.

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Post by papafarang » March 12, 2016, 9:26 am

yes it seems a bit blurry that bit, I met a thai lady in her 40's, she lived in Italy for 15 years, she returned here on an Italian passport as her thai one had run out, problem was she was treated just like another tourist with all the visa issues ,so she applied for another thai passport, used it to fly to Cambodia and then returned problem solved, only problem with that is her Italian passport then would show an overstay if she tried to use it to return to Italy. all very confusing.

"Looks like he didn't want to register for conscription. His choice."
probably would have been difficult to register for conscription in Thailand if your an American citizen ? personally I would have thought he would be mad to give up his American passport, he can hardly be a draft dodger if he's already applied voluntarily for the US army ?
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Post by Techland » March 12, 2016, 10:02 am

I am not aware of anyone who was forced to give up his dual citizenship when turning 21. This seems to be a phrase in some text that is never enforced. See also upper other posts.

Regarding thai citizenship: this guy got american citizenship the day he was borne in the US. And he would have had no problem to get thai citizenship because his mother is (was) thai. That easy. Still looks like missed opportunities. Now it's too late.

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Post by papafarang » March 12, 2016, 10:29 am

depends if people think having thai citizenship would be better than American citizenship, I suppose being only 16 and finding yourself in a foreign country with no money and no way of getting back to the states .getting a crappy job for a company selling condos was better than being homeless on the streets of Bangkok. lucky for him that being able to speak thai and fluent English at least gave him a better chance. well he managed to survive. I wonder how many members think being conscripted into the thai army would be a great opportunity ? I sure don't think it would be ? not if your other option would be earning much more cash in the US army
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Post by JohnG » March 12, 2016, 11:30 pm

papafarang wrote:"Looks like he didn't want to register for conscription. His choice."
probably would have been difficult to register for conscription in Thailand if your an American citizen ? personally I would have thought he would be mad to give up his American passport, he can hardly be a draft dodger if he's already applied voluntarily for the US army ?
Not difficult at all as he was a Thai citizen.

His obligation for the draft was as a Thai citizen. What he chose to do in the US was entirely up to him, nothing to do with his obligations as a Thai - it's not transferable!!!

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Post by JohnG » March 12, 2016, 11:35 pm

papafarang wrote:depends if people think having thai citizenship would be better than American citizenship, I suppose being only 16 and finding yourself in a foreign country with no money and no way of getting back to the states .getting a crappy job for a company selling condos was better than being homeless on the streets of Bangkok. lucky for him that being able to speak thai and fluent English at least gave him a better chance. well he managed to survive. I wonder how many members think being conscripted into the thai army would be a great opportunity ? I sure don't think it would be ? not if your other option would be earning much more cash in the US army
In practice the chances of half-Thais (at least those with a farang father hence a western name) actually getting conscripted is minimal, but apparently he didn't want to take the risk. As I said, his choice.
Last edited by JohnG on March 12, 2016, 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by JohnG » March 12, 2016, 11:44 pm

JohnG wrote:
coxo wrote:My son gets his Thai ID card next year at age of 7, he then holds Thai Passport, Thai ID and Aust passport, a duel citizen. At the age of 18 or 21 unfortunately he under Thai law must choose one or the other, under Aust law he can be a dual citizen for ever. Years ago I expected the Thai gov to change this law, I now under present circumstances expect the age to more than likely be reduced!
So in short Techland that is how he held a Thai ID card.
I am reliably informed that's incorrect coxo - the most he will ever be asked to do at the moment is produce an 'intention to revoke' certificate from the Australian embassy; Thailand will also automatically inform the Oz embassy that he's Thai (not that they will care!).

The problem comes if both countries have conscription and you have to do both at the same time (!), which obviously doesn't apply as Oz doesn't, or if he wants to use his Oz nationality to avoid conscription. As long as he's happy to take his chances with conscription it's not a problem.
Just a thought, coxo, in case you're not aware he can always join the reserves as a cadet in school and get full guaranteed exemption from conscription. Ten years time it may all change, but if not he'll need to join in school.

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Post by papafarang » March 13, 2016, 4:04 am

yes i'm even wondering that myself ? I was trying to explain that he could not get a work permit, which he needed because he had an American passport, somehow it seems he's being called a draft dodger ? he's friggin American, not eligible to join the thai army even if he volunteered .and no he couldn't get a work permit to sell overpriced condos to silly tourists in pattaya. so no not "his choice" . good news is I spoke to him, he's staying in vagas as he got a temp job, funny enough selling real estate, but only temp as soon he has to report to somewhere call fort Benning as he's been accepted into the US army . that seems to be his "choice". the point is ,he worked for a thai company, he's over 21 and needed a new ID card which they would not give him, so they(the company) tried for a work permit, which was refused as they don't want foreigners working in that sector , he recons it's because too many Chinese selling property and the thai authorities clamping down on who can sell property, which could explain why FBI has had to cease trading . but some posters seem to think it's about dodging joining the thai army, no it's about not getting a work permit to sell property.
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Post by ezrider » March 13, 2016, 7:38 pm

this question is off post subject but does anyone know the current laws pertaining to foreign/Thai males turning 18yrs. of age regarding being drafted into Thai army or having to choose one citizenship over another? Of course laws could change in 6 yrs. My son, age 12, holds both passports now. Thanks.

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Post by papaguido » March 13, 2016, 9:02 pm

ezrider wrote:this question is off post subject but does anyone know the current laws pertaining to foreign/Thai males turning 18yrs. of age regarding being drafted into Thai army or having to choose one citizenship over another? Of course laws could change in 6 yrs. My son, age 12, holds both passports now. Thanks.
Your answer is here....

http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/p ... ml#p448951

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Post by JohnG » March 14, 2016, 9:35 pm

papafarang wrote:yes i'm even wondering that myself ? I was trying to explain that he could not get a work permit, which he needed because he had an American passport, somehow it seems he's being called a draft dodger ? he's friggin American, not eligible to join the thai army even if he volunteered .
Not correct - again.

Of course he was "eligible to join the thai army" because he was a Thai citizen. He didn't register for the draft when he should have done, which was either "his choice" or he was mind-numbingly unobservant and somehow didn't notice that there was a draft in Thailand, so by not doing so he gave up his Thai citizenship. It's that simple.

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Post by JohnG » March 14, 2016, 10:23 pm

papaguido wrote:
ezrider wrote:this question is off post subject but does anyone know the current laws pertaining to foreign/Thai males turning 18yrs. of age regarding being drafted into Thai army or having to choose one citizenship over another? Of course laws could change in 6 yrs. My son, age 12, holds both passports now. Thanks.
Your answer is here....

http://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/p ... ml#p448951
It is correct, but possibly misleading in one very important point.

"College" does NOT repeat NOT exempt you from conscription - all it does is allow you to defer it and reduce the time you may have to serve if conscripted.

Apart from medical exemption, the only exemptions are rather more drastic:

i) Full gender re-assignment surgery (and I mean "full"!).

ii) Enrolment as a Buddhist monk from at least 20 to 28, full time.

As long as your (his other) nationality does not have conscription you only have Thai conscription to worry about; if both countries have conscription he will either have to avoid both or serve one and avoid the other - serving both is seldom an option for obvious reasons.

It has become increasingly difficult to avoid the draft by paying, so I wouldn't even bother thinking about it as it could become impossible for all practical purposes (ie: except mega-bucks).

It's very unusual for those with dual nationality to pick a red card (conscripted), but that's no guarantee - all you need is someone who's had a bad day, doesn't like farangs, doesn't like you, etc, and he's in!

The only effective / guaranteed way is to enrol in the Reserve Officer Training Programme from Mitthayom 4 to 6 (Grade 10-12) for three years which will give him full exemption if he completes the training (think Army Cadets, once a week, plus a field camp at the end of training). Some International Schools include it as part of the routine curriculum so that all their Thai / dual nationality students are automatically exempt, but in many other schools it's over-subscribed, for obvious reasons, so I'd suggest you check as soon as he starts high school - I believe the normal methods for ensuring participation usually apply!

http://www.harrowschool.ac.th/Military-Training.aspx

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