I was thinking: thought experiments

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KB_Texas

I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by KB_Texas » January 4, 2013, 10:00 pm

I was thinking about this after reading many things on UM and seeing how various groups interact, and also reading about some of the physics about jets around black holes and supernova.

As some of you may know, not only do we move around the earth each day at a speed a bit over 1000 MPH, but the Earth moves around the sun also, at a speed of about 66,660 MPH. And the sun also orbits the center of the galaxy at a speed of around 420,000 MPH. So we're moving along at a pretty good clip day in and day out.

Now, before anyone gets all worried about this little thought experiment, the odds against it happening are probably MUCH bigger than winning the big lottery, so let's not have an 'end of the world' scenario come about from it. ;)

We know that there are some pretty energetic radiation jets spewing through space, and some of these are quite large...on the order of tens to hundreds of light years, and that we do not know where they all are. (that is well within range of the 15,000 or so nearest stars) If you were to be unfortunate enough to be caught in one of these, you basically would almost instantaneously melt. The atoms of your body would get so excited, and produce so much heat, that they would melt you on the spot.

So let's say Earth is revolving around the sun, and the sun is revolving around the center of the Milky Way, and the geometries line up and HALF the Earth is caught in the edge of one of these jets. It doesn't matter which half, east or west, north or south, though it would be interesting to postulate based on different locations what the final outcome would be. (and yes, I realize that the jets are probably not THAT tightly focused, and there would be other rather nasty effects on the atmosphere, oceans, etc., but this is a social exercise, not a scientific one.)

Instantly, and without warning, the population on the affected side disappears. The populations of whole countries are gone. Cultures disappear. Religions are impacted or not depending on the affected area. Technology falters as satellites, computers, transportation, etc. cease functioning. Governments disappear. Species disappear. Basically the Earth has been cut in half with life on one side and no life on the other.

What happens then?

My guess is that the religions that remained would all start shouting about the wrath of god and how we are doomed sinners and everyone must believe or perish. The stronger governments that remained would move quickly to take over the prime real estate that is suddenly available, and the remaining people would probably say something like 'it is what it is' and continue, as much as would be possible, to do the things they always did. In other words, we would learn very little from the experience, and the folks left would all see the fact that they are alive while the others were dead as vindication of their religion/prejudices/beliefs, and start being even more aggressive towards those whose primary systems perished. We would continue to reinforce prejudice and hatred, instead of using the experience to build a better human and a better world.

Maybe I am just getting more pessimistic in my old age, but I do believe this would be the outcome. What do you think?

KB

(and if you don't give a shiat or it makes your brain hurt, please just hit next instead of posting a lot of 'who cares?' type of responses. Thank you.)



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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by gudtymchuk » January 5, 2013, 7:45 am

What do I think? I think, unlike bristol boy, you post is mostly grammatically correct =D> (and [-o< I'm not on the other side).
What happens if you get scared half to death twice?

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semperfiguy
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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by semperfiguy » January 5, 2013, 9:47 am

KB_Texas wrote:I was thinking about this after reading many things on UM and seeing how various groups interact, and also reading about some of the physics about jets around black holes and supernova.

As some of you may know, not only do we move around the earth each day at a speed a bit over 1000 MPH, but the Earth moves around the sun also, at a speed of about 66,660 MPH. And the sun also orbits the center of the galaxy at a speed of around 420,000 MPH. So we're moving along at a pretty good clip day in and day out.

Now, before anyone gets all worried about this little thought experiment, the odds against it happening are probably MUCH bigger than winning the big lottery, so let's not have an 'end of the world' scenario come about from it. ;)

We know that there are some pretty energetic radiation jets spewing through space, and some of these are quite large...on the order of tens to hundreds of light years, and that we do not know where they all are. (that is well within range of the 15,000 or so nearest stars) If you were to be unfortunate enough to be caught in one of these, you basically would almost instantaneously melt. The atoms of your body would get so excited, and produce so much heat, that they would melt you on the spot.

So let's say Earth is revolving around the sun, and the sun is revolving around the center of the Milky Way, and the geometries line up and HALF the Earth is caught in the edge of one of these jets. It doesn't matter which half, east or west, north or south, though it would be interesting to postulate based on different locations what the final outcome would be. (and yes, I realize that the jets are probably not THAT tightly focused, and there would be other rather nasty effects on the atmosphere, oceans, etc., but this is a social exercise, not a scientific one.)

Instantly, and without warning, the population on the affected side disappears. The populations of whole countries are gone. Cultures disappear. Religions are impacted or not depending on the affected area. Technology falters as satellites, computers, transportation, etc. cease functioning. Governments disappear. Species disappear. Basically the Earth has been cut in half with life on one side and no life on the other.

What happens then?

My guess is that the religions that remained would all start shouting about the wrath of god and how we are doomed sinners and everyone must believe or perish. The stronger governments that remained would move quickly to take over the prime real estate that is suddenly available, and the remaining people would probably say something like 'it is what it is' and continue, as much as would be possible, to do the things they always did. In other words, we would learn very little from the experience, and the folks left would all see the fact that they are alive while the others were dead as vindication of their religion/prejudices/beliefs, and start being even more aggressive towards those whose primary systems perished. We would continue to reinforce prejudice and hatred, instead of using the experience to build a better human and a better world.

Maybe I am just getting more pessimistic in my old age, but I do believe this would be the outcome. What do you think?

KB

(and if you don't give a shiat or it makes your brain hurt, please just hit next instead of posting a lot of 'who cares?' type of responses. Thank you.)
Holy Toledo KB! Where do you and Redwolf get that stuff you're smokin'? I have a hard enough time staying focused on what I'm gonna have for lunch today. Semper Fi my man!
Colossians 2:8-10...See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, which are based on human tradition and the spiritual forces of the world rather than on Christ. For in HIM dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD bodily; and you are complete in HIM, who is the head of all principality and power.

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by Jello » January 5, 2013, 10:18 am

Based on the way things are now and historically I'd say your right. But I'm still hopeful that the human race is not done evolving yet. Maybe a catastrophe of such proportions would awaken the remaining population to the reality of our fragile and chaotic existence an usher in a new age of enlightenment.

The cultural movement of the 17th and 18th centuries changed the way people think, which influenced science (being in direct confrontation with religion) and government. I think at some point this will happen again.

The opposite scenario would be that some would cease the opportunity to control the masses through fear and take us back into the dark ages,
or post apocalyptic chaos...Image
:lol:
UFF DA!

KB_Texas

I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by KB_Texas » January 5, 2013, 11:03 am

I do believe the outcome would be entirely influenced by chance. IF, let's say, the northern hemisphere was hit by the beam, and the southern hemisphere survived, then 90% of the human population would be gone. There would be plenty of natural resources (food, energy, etc.) left for the 10% remaining, so perhaps they WOULD get together and use a logical approach to repopulating the other half of the world and sharing the resources.

If that did happen, I still think it would be temporary until such time as the population grew again, and then the old prejudices would kick in. The caveat to that would be if enough generations passed that the 'new' way of working together was now considered the 'correct' way, which would be hopeful for humanity.

On the other hand, about any other scenario would lead to one area or another becoming the dominant culture, and little would change in the overall makeup and thinking of humans in my opinion. In explanation: if the West was taken out, Asia would take over. If Asia was taken out, the West would take over, etc., etc. Draw any line half way through the earth north to south, and at least one powerful country/culture remains. Australia would probably be the strongest country left if it was northern vs. southern hemisphere, so there might be some hope at least. ;)

If China/Asia were the survivors, I am fairly sure nothing would change except they would get bigger. If Europe and the US were the survivors, I am fairly sure nothing would change except that they would get bigger. In either of the above scenarios, the negative things postulated in the original post would be most likely to happen in my opinion.

Anyway, just more fodder for those who wish to play along. ;)

KB

SFG...not smoking anything...just like to think outside the box at times. ;)

Jello...heh...Mad Max all over again. ;) But there would be at least one industrialized society left in any of these scenarios, so resources should NOT be a huge problem over time. The first year or three might be a bugger though.

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by Aardvark » January 5, 2013, 11:31 am

Quote] Australia would probably be the strongest country left if it was northern vs. southern hemisphere, so there might be some hope at least.[unquote] Jeez who would we get to turn the lights on :shock:

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by Shado » January 5, 2013, 12:02 pm

There is some historical perspective regarding mass depletion of human populations. Pandemics and plagues killed hundreds of millions of people. In some cases 30% to 50% of a country's population died. There are written records of the chaos that insued and how governments, religion, business, armies, science, farming, trade, etc. were effected.

Although not as dramatic and the example presented above, I suspect that some correlations could be drawn as to how the survivors would react.

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by akwoodworker » January 5, 2013, 1:04 pm

Piers Anthony wrote some good books called the geoddesy series in which different scenarios played out. At this point in time with all the social programming that has gone in most developed countries I think there would be extreme violence and with luck the good people would band together. It all boils down to who the leaders are, it it were a Ghandi type individual we would have a good chance to rebuild a good world. It it were the elite, illuminate types, the world would be reduced to kingdoms with lords and such. Pretty much what is happening right now. At this point in time we are not evolved enough to transcend the ensuing difficulties.

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by rick » January 5, 2013, 4:48 pm

If the southern hemisphere was blasted, most of the new real estate would not be closely attached to anywhere else - there would be a new race to colonise it - but a lot of big players would want it - USA, Europe, China, other Asian countries... plenty of opportunity for conflict. Also, wipe out South America and Australia and you would make a huge dent in the world food supply. I think there would be a lot of 'adjustments' made.

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by Barney » January 6, 2013, 2:47 pm

KB Texas fantastic thought provoking post.

MMM first thought, if australia was wiped out the average IQ of the population left would be diminished considerably? :D

We'll assume the oceans are destroyed or boiled which do make up the majority of the earth surface and that would be the single major problem.
BUT If your a camel jockey you will be ok but if your an ocean fisherman with a boat then your weekends will be boring because not all fishermen can play golf, but all golfers can fish, IMO.

But I have been watching sattelite TV channels recently and a lot of repeat scientific documentaries full of things that america has invented have had the same affect on my thoughts as the original poster. All be it in a dry construction camp without the aid of yeast and hops type drinks or other mind altering things. In one of these excellent documentaries they thought they could regenerate a dead planet back to life, I thought what a great invention, Stephen Hawkings eat you heart out, it failed eventually but I am sure that the scientists are working to fix the problem, hopefully with Mr Hawkings help this time. I think the documentaries are called the STAR TREK series, I think it is all about the USA perspective on things. Anyway if you see the shows I think the one I am talking about was called "the return of some scientist named Spock". Not sure what the title had to do with the genesis theory.
That's what i think :-"

KB_Texas

I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by KB_Texas » January 6, 2013, 4:17 pm

Barney wrote:KB Texas fantastic thought provoking post.
Thanks. I am glad a few folks think so. :)
We'll assume the oceans are destroyed or boiled which do make up the majority of the earth surface and that would be the single major problem.
BUT If your a camel jockey you will be ok but if your an ocean fisherman with a boat then your weekends will be boring because not all fishermen can play golf, but all golfers can fish, IMO.
I was careful in the original post to leave out the actual physical effects on the oceans, atmosphere, etc., because honestly, if it happened as postulated, it would most likely mean the end of ALL higher life on Earth, not just the one side. I wanted to run the scenario as a way to address cultural differences, and what might happen if those differences were negated by some outside influence, and get folks to think about it a bit.
I think the documentaries are called the STAR TREK series, I think it is all about the USA perspective on things. Anyway if you see the shows I think the one I am talking about was called "the return of some scientist named Spock". Not sure what the title had to do with the genesis theory.
That's what i think :-"
Heh, Star Trek came on at 7:00 PM Friday nights when I was in high school, and I would not even go out on dates until it was over, unless she wanted to come over and watch it with me. ;) Spock was my hero!

That DOES however, bring up another interesting thought on the same subject: What if an intelligent (and benign) race of aliens made contact and said they would like to trade with us, but we needed to grow up and get over some of our cultural differences, and work together as one race of many? Would THAT make it easier or harder for people to actually instigate changes?

KB

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by gudtymchuk » January 6, 2013, 4:34 pm

KB_Texas wrote: What if an intelligent (and benign) race of aliens made contact and said they would like to trade with us, but we needed to grow up and get over some of our cultural differences, and work together as one race of many? Would THAT make it easier or harder for people to actually instigate changes?

KB
If these aliens made first contact with the US and Bush was the POTUS he would fend them off with patriot missiles just before he declared an un-declared war....
And if the Big "O" was the POTUS he would demand to know their earnings status so he could (A)demonize and filch them for taxes or (B) place them on welfare benefits and promise them a path to citizenship....
Sorry KP, I really am. I couldn't help my self. I'm not responsible :shock: .. the devil :evil: made me do it... :oops: :oops: :oops:
What happens if you get scared half to death twice?

KB_Texas

I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by KB_Texas » January 6, 2013, 4:46 pm

Heh, I said an INTELLIGENT race gudty. ;) That would mean they would probably broadcast to all nations at once. :D

KB

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by Barney » January 6, 2013, 6:31 pm

KB

I think if you watch the other documentary " Chroniicals of Riddick" the future with aliens will be answered in full. It was for me. And the scenario of Gudtymchuk would be the precurser to this.

KB_Texas

I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by KB_Texas » January 6, 2013, 8:45 pm

Heh, I am a sci-fi fan from way back...first books I really got into were Heinlein, then Asimov, Clarke, Norton, et. al. I wrote my HS senior thesis on Lord of the Rings, and got a C for writing about a 'children's' book. Hahaha, I do wish my old English teacher (she was 64 then!) could have lived long enough to see the movies! (The C was later upgraded to an A+ after the other 4 English teachers all graded it an A+, and I was transferred to another English class.)

I have read quite a few different authors, really about any that sounded good, and enjoy good sci-fi movies or tv, though I consider those rare.. The original Star Trek was groundbreaking for it's day, and I enjoyed it a lot, though it is quite dated today. Babylon 5 was also a great series. Unlike others, I never really enjoyed Battlestar Galactica in any of it's iterations. The Chronicles of Riddick was ok, but a bit ridiculous. Soldier was also pretty good, and is about the only Kurt Russell movie I enjoyed, but I thought it was better than Riddick.

So maybe now some of you may realize why I come up with scenarios like the original question. :) :-"

KB

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by Jello » January 6, 2013, 9:14 pm

KB_Texas wrote:What if an intelligent (and benign) race of aliens made contact and said they would like to trade with us, but we needed to grow up and get over some of our cultural differences, and work together as one race of many? Would THAT make it easier or harder for people to actually instigate changes?
Work together as one race of many? You mean like the UN? :lol: Formed in 1945, one of the stated goal's is the achievement of world peace. 62 years later and..... :-"
A benign alien race, no. A alien race that threatens us with annihilation, maybe we'd get it together.
We're just barely out of the jungle when it comes to our "tribes" getting along with each other.
For a star trek analogy, I think currently our race has more in commen with the klingon Empire than the United Federation of Planets.
Image 8)
UFF DA!

KB_Texas

I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by KB_Texas » January 6, 2013, 10:14 pm

I actually meant to type one species of many (aliens are talking to us) instead of one race of many, but I fully agree we are really just getting started as a species. The UN, like many ideas of humans, was a good idea, until humans started being humans and messed it up. ;) And you might just be right...an ultimatum MIGHT be more effective than a request.

100,000 years +/- is a blink in deep time. The dinosaurs, as every school child can tell you, ruled for millions of years. We are 1/10th of one million years as a species, and about 7,000 years as an 'advanced' society, so we have a long way to go. My original scenario was to think about what it would take to make us grow up.

Heh, good analogy re: Klingons. ;) http://www.kli.org/tlh/sounds/majQa%27.au

KB

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by rick » January 6, 2013, 10:16 pm

One of my favourite Sci-fi novels was Ring world - now there was an idea to give us all enough space. But that was an idea on a grand scale. But should the Human race start on a program to colonise space? Start building space stations and space habitats, like ring worlds or cylinders? (If unfamiliar with these concepts, try looking up Ring world on Wikipedia and follow links from there). Then every conceivable culture could go it's own way.... and try out their ideas without screwing up Earth itself.

KB_Texas

I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by KB_Texas » January 22, 2013, 3:49 pm

In the category 'Truth is Stranger Than Fiction', the winner is:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/podca ... d-13-01-21 (pops)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/spac ... ntury.html

:lol:

KB

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I was thinking: thought experiments

Post by Aardvark » January 22, 2013, 4:37 pm

Personally I'm waiting for a Time Machine so I can go back and give myself a clipp behind the ears and last weeks "Lotto Nunbers" :D

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