Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

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Vibration
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Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by Vibration » April 10, 2021, 9:41 am

Last week when taking a shower in our 16 year old house I received intermittent electric shocks causing my whole body to shake and as soon as I realised what was happening I dropped the hand held Shower.

 It was an exremely unpleasant and very scary situation that would no doubt have been fatal had I not been standing on a rubber anti slipp mat.

 My wife managed to locate the Elecrician who wired the house and he said that the water heater is earthed so no real danger however after changing out the water heater with a new one he realised that the people who had installed a very fast acting Safety circuit breaker (about 10 years ago) had not connected this to the cable connected to the in the ground Earth Rod and it was only by chance that he noticed this.

I have read a lot of times about people being killed in Thailand by water heaters not being earthed and I recommend all to make sure your water heaters are earthed properly.

He said further that it was a miracle that myself or my wife had not been killed.

Happy safe showering to all.



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Wee Jimmy
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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by Wee Jimmy » April 11, 2021, 6:17 am

It was a miracle you or your wife weren't electrocuted..
When our house was built about 25 years ago we had the same problem because of no earth.
We have a farang friend who is an electrician by trade who completely rewired our house last year with 3 pin UK sockets and plugs . What we found when stripping the old wiring out was shocking. In the loft were 7 plastic boxes with wires twisted together. Some of which we had to break to open. I shudder to think of the wiring in some of the Thai house's.
There are no real tradesmen here...

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Khun Paul
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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by Khun Paul » April 11, 2021, 6:38 am

Sadly wiring here is still in the Stone Age, careful checks should be made with all appliances requiring water to operate as well; as electricity. Those that rent are more susceptible to these dangers I am sure , Beware and be careful.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by bluejets » April 11, 2021, 8:09 am

Standing on a rubber mat in a shower with water everywhere is not going to save you in any way shape or form.

Earth wiring to the main earth is essential which is (in the MEN system which most of Thailand is) required to be connected to the mani Neutral and pretty useless unless some form of earth loop impedence test is carried out.

Safety switches of the core balance type sense imbalance between any active and neutral counductor passing through this torroid and trip if this is larger than the set level, usually 30mA and a time out less than 400mSec. This part is not to do with the earth wiring.

Any so-called fast acting circuit breaker as such is not there for protecting you in the shower, rather overcurrent in the circuit.

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Drunk Monkey
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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by Drunk Monkey » April 11, 2021, 8:40 am

question bluejets .. i have earthing points at road side , bore hole water pump location and at the house fuse box but was still advised to use RCB0 breakers for all bathroom, utility room, kitchens and outdoor sockets n lighting etc which i did , in fact half the 24 fuse box breakers are RCBO .. are you saying due to the earthing these breakers are unessesary.

A normal breaker was about 100 - 150 bt the RCBOs were over 1000 bt if i recall correctly .

DM
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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by saint » April 11, 2021, 9:06 am

Wee Jimmy wrote:
April 11, 2021, 6:17 am
It was a miracle you or your wife weren't electrocuted..
When our house was built about 25 years ago we had the same problem because of no earth.
We have a farang friend who is an electrician by trade who completely rewired our house last year with 3 pin UK sockets and plugs . What we found when stripping the old wiring out was shocking. In the loft were 7 plastic boxes with wires twisted together. Some of which we had to break to open. I shudder to think of the wiring in some of the Thai house's.
There are no real tradesmen here...
I think its 25 years or so that houses in the U K will be ready for a complete rewire .
Out of interest why did you use U k 3 pin sockets ? Surely that must be a ball ache when you buy a new appliance as most here now come with a sealed fitted 3 pin plug .

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by mak » April 11, 2021, 9:31 am

No. In most countries RCBO's are required in all wet locations: bathrooms, kitchens, outdoors, utility rooms, etc.
The grounding of your home is a seperate requirement. You should have a ground rod which will be connected to your ground bus in your Main Panel. In addition, in your main Panelboard, the neutral bus should be connected to the ground bus.
The RCBO's protect you from current imbalance plus overcurrent. Regular breakers only give you overcurrent protection.
If you have the money using only RCBO's is safer.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by AlexO » April 11, 2021, 9:46 am

Drunk Monkey wrote:
April 11, 2021, 8:40 am
question bluejets .. i have earthing points at road side , bore hole water pump location and at the house fuse box but was still advised to use RCB0 breakers for all bathroom, utility room, kitchens and outdoor sockets n lighting etc which i did , in fact half the 24 fuse box breakers are RCBO .. are you saying due to the earthing these breakers are unessesary.

A normal breaker was about 100 - 150 bt the RCBOs were over 1000 bt if i recall correctly .

DM
No DM.
MCB's are basically there to protect the circuit cable in event of a short circuit/fault. These can be anything up to twice the rated amps before tripping and if you get hung up on something protected by a MCB there's a good chance you will be deed before it decides to trip.
RCBO's/RCB's are designed to protect lives and should trip normally within 30 m/secs which is recognised as 99% safe even for people with heart conditions etc. They should be used on all power circuits that serve equipment that can become live or wet while in use and things like electric lawnmowers (amazing how many people die using these and accidently cutting the cables) My personal view is that they are a waste of time and money for lighting circuits but a big yes for power circuits. I am talking about western style wiring not Thai where they tend to use the same circuit for lights and power in a room.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by AlexO » April 11, 2021, 10:51 am

Forgot to say 30m/a as well as 30 m/secs. Hedge trimmers as well as lawn mowers are another killer. Most equipment with an electric element such as electric hobs/ovens/shower units use the traditional metal sheathed powder insulated heating elements. These over time develop tiny cracks in the outer sheath which allow tiny amounts of moisture into insulation. On initial start from cold these are normally fine but as they warm up the cracks expand the moisture heats up and the element starts to pass a fault current to anything metal in the appliance. This means that you are in danger of being in contact and forming a path to earth/ground that combined with your body resistance is not enough to trip a MCB but more than enough to be fatal.
Always wary of shower units in hotels/resorts thats why I send the wife in for the first shower.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by FrazeeDK » April 11, 2021, 11:00 am

if you're using a water pump to pressurize your house's plumbing ensure it is properly grounded and the polarity is correct too. That can cause intermittent voltage into the water too..
Dave

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by Wee Jimmy » April 12, 2021, 3:28 am

saint wrote:
April 11, 2021, 9:06 am
Wee Jimmy wrote:
April 11, 2021, 6:17 am
It was a miracle you or your wife weren't electrocuted..
When our house was built about 25 years ago we had the same problem because of no earth.
We have a farang friend who is an electrician by trade who completely rewired our house last year with 3 pin UK sockets and plugs . What we found when stripping the old wiring out was shocking. In the loft were 7 plastic boxes with wires twisted together. Some of which we had to break to open. I shudder to think of the wiring in some of the Thai house's.
There are no real tradesmen here...
I think its 25 years or so that houses in the U K will be ready for a complete rewire .
Out of interest why did you use U k 3 pin sockets ? Surely that must be a ball ache when you buy a new appliance as most here now come with a sealed fitted 3 pin plug .
Not really... It's about safety..l don't mind changing a plug now and again.
I'll give an example... Yesterday a family member moved into a rented room nearer to her work. We bought her a few electric items to help her. Microwave, rice cooker, kettle. These electric items all had 3 pin Thai plugs but the wall sockets had only the 2 pin holes which are absolutely useless.. Most importantly because of only the 2 pin wall sockets there was no way of earthing these appliances.
I'm glad I have UK style plugs and sockets with properly rated fuses. Earthing should be compulsory in houses.
Thais just don't understand electricity can kill!!!

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by bluejets » April 12, 2021, 5:25 am

Drunk Monkey wrote:
April 11, 2021, 8:40 am
question bluejets .. i have earthing points at road side , bore hole water pump location and at the house fuse box but was still advised to use RCB0 breakers for all bathroom, utility room, kitchens and outdoor sockets n lighting etc which i did , in fact half the 24 fuse box breakers are RCBO .. are you saying due to the earthing these breakers are unessesary.
You have read the response tits up as already pointed out.
As far as the main earth stake, this too has been replied to in so far as it's connection to the main neutral in any MEN installation BUT.......
There should only be one earth stake.
Many seem to think the fault current somehow miraculously goes back through the ground but this is not so.
I can show a diagram of fault current path if required.

To answer your query about where to use safety switches, use them everywhere.
No better protection especially in Thailand.
Thing about not using them on lighting or because the circuits might be mixed power and light is a load of cobblers.

The trip current in domestic is 30mA.
The maximum time for trip is 400mS, not 30mS although most will trip anywhere between 15 and 40 and we tend to chuck out anything that tests above 40 on successive tests. Simply not worth the risk.

Most bathroom heaters I've seen there have a saftey switch built in just as an "in case" condition.
Although the Op may have been using something left over from years ago.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by bluejets » April 12, 2021, 5:29 am

Wee Jimmy wrote:
April 12, 2021, 3:28 am
Earthing should be compulsory in houses.
It is...but no one gives a fug...... :D

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by tamada » April 12, 2021, 7:21 am

Ten or twenty years ago, the regulations, equipment and expertise required for grounding and proper protections on devices like shower units and water heaters were lacking. Don't forget that all appliances eventually do wear out or break as well.

These days, buyers of new-builds typically are better served in this regard but the peril still exists of having a poorly trained, ignorant or cost-cutting electrician being employed on building one's 3-bed, 2-bath retirement haven. KP also highlighted another risk if one is renting an older, improperly wired or otherwise poorly protected property. Either way, having a good look at the consumer unit (RCBO fitted), shower unit wiring (individual RCBO, number and gauge of wires) and wall sockets (number of pins) should be high on the list when checking out a new home construction or a rental home.

Either way, the technology and hardware exists in spades these days and the checking and upgrading of these older circuits should be made a priority. There's absolutely no guarantee that one can "live with it" if you don't.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by AlexO » April 12, 2021, 7:41 am

bluejets wrote:
April 12, 2021, 5:25 am
Drunk Monkey wrote:
April 11, 2021, 8:40 am
question bluejets .. i have earthing points at road side , bore hole water pump location and at the house fuse box but was still advised to use RCB0 breakers for all bathroom, utility room, kitchens and outdoor sockets n lighting etc which i did , in fact half the 24 fuse box breakers are RCBO .. are you saying due to the earthing these breakers are unessesary.
You have read the response tits up as already pointed out.
As far as the main earth stake, this too has been replied to in so far as it's connection to the main neutral in any MEN installation BUT.......
There should only be one earth stake.
Many seem to think the fault current somehow miraculously goes back through the ground but this is not so.
I can show a diagram of fault current path if required.

To answer your query about where to use safety switches, use them everywhere.
No better protection especially in Thailand.
Thing about not using them on lighting or because the circuits might be mixed power and light is a load of cobblers.

The trip current in domestic is 30mA.
The maximum time for trip is 400mS, not 30mS although most will trip anywhere between 15 and 40 and we tend to chuck out anything that tests above 40 on successive tests. Simply not worth the risk.

Most bathroom heaters I've seen there have a saftey switch built in just as an "in case" condition.
Although the Op may have been using something left over from years ago.
Bluejets
There should only be be one earth stake???? An earthing/grounding system with an impedance (resistance) level of more than 1 ohm is just bloody useless. I have seen us having to drive multiple rods of 12 meters and more all connected with thick copper tape and sometimes even chemicals (bentonite) to achieve the required readings. Gents dont be fooled into thinking that just because you have a 1200mm earth rod connected to your system that you are safely earthed. BJ, I take it you were referring to me when you started on about cobblers. If you read the post I said in 'my opinion' about lighting circuits not requiring RCCB?ELCB or whatever term is used these days I stand by that. If you have a circuit with mixed power and lighting connected then yes it needs protected. Stay Safe folks.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by AlexO » April 12, 2021, 8:20 am

Most bathroom heaters I've seen there have a saftey switch built in just as an "in case" condition.
Although the Op may have been using something left over from years ago.

Agree that the original poster was probably using an old shower unit but do you really trust those 'new built in' Safety Disconnectors. The 'test buttons' are basically disconnectors (same as an on off switch) they are not testing that the bloody thing works when there is a fault current present. Only way to make sure is to buy a quality RCBO and have it installed in the circuit by a qualified spark (they do exist in Thailand) just more expensive than Somchai from the village.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by bluejets » April 13, 2021, 5:37 am

AlexO wrote:
April 12, 2021, 7:41 am
bluejets wrote:
April 12, 2021, 5:25 am
Drunk Monkey wrote:
April 11, 2021, 8:40 am
question bluejets .. i have earthing points at road side , bore hole water pump location and at the house fuse box but was still advised to use RCB0 breakers for all bathroom, utility room, kitchens and outdoor sockets n lighting etc which i did , in fact half the 24 fuse box breakers are RCBO .. are you saying due to the earthing these breakers are unessesary.
You have read the response tits up as already pointed out.
As far as the main earth stake, this too has been replied to in so far as it's connection to the main neutral in any MEN installation BUT.......
There should only be one earth stake.
Many seem to think the fault current somehow miraculously goes back through the ground but this is not so.
I can show a diagram of fault current path if required.

To answer your query about where to use safety switches, use them everywhere.
No better protection especially in Thailand.
Thing about not using them on lighting or because the circuits might be mixed power and light is a load of cobblers.

The trip current in domestic is 30mA.
The maximum time for trip is 400mS, not 30mS although most will trip anywhere between 15 and 40 and we tend to chuck out anything that tests above 40 on successive tests. Simply not worth the risk.

Most bathroom heaters I've seen there have a saftey switch built in just as an "in case" condition.
Although the Op may have been using something left over from years ago.
Bluejets
There should only be be one earth stake???? An earthing/grounding system with an impedance (resistance) level of more than 1 ohm is just bloody useless. I have seen us having to drive multiple rods of 12 meters and more all connected with thick copper tape and sometimes even chemicals (bentonite) to achieve the required readings. Gents dont be fooled into thinking that just because you have a 1200mm earth rod connected to your system that you are safely earthed. BJ, I take it you were referring to me when you started on about cobblers. If you read the post I said in 'my opinion' about lighting circuits not requiring RCCB?ELCB or whatever term is used these days I stand by that. If you have a circuit with mixed power and lighting connected then yes it needs protected. Stay Safe folks.
And as usual there are those who have zero understanding of the way the earth loop impedance is measured and how , as I pointed out, the fault current circuit exists in an MEN system.

Here we go again.
The earth stake in in an MEN system (which is 99% of Thailand) in your installation is there to hold the mains supply voltage at ground level, that's it.

It is the job of the circuit earths to convey any fault current back to the main Neutral conductor where it then returns to the transformer. This earth loop impedance level is what determins how any circuit breaker reacts to a fault and what type of circuit breaker is required to actually work at it's rated current.

The main earth stake is NOT there to conduct fault current back to the transformer through some fairy dust in some peoples Star Trek imagination, let alone the millions of ohm impedance of some crappy soil, dry or wet.

I stand by every comment I make and if you feel it is pointed at you then my work is done.
Furthermore I suggest you get yourself an electrical education or stay well away from electrical installations.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by tamada » April 13, 2021, 7:58 am

I had a mis-wired extension on the house that infrequently resulted in some folks feeling a "tingle" when touching white goods or the metal enclosures of counter top appliances. The washing machine was the appliance getting most complaints so I installed an earth spike on it and no more issues. Although we had grounded outlets that were wired properly, I had always questioned if a proper ground spike had been installed during the partially supervised construction. However, after I got a "belt" off the deep fat fryer, I tasked Mrs tam with getting a sparkie in. He did some rewiring that included disconnecting the ground wire that I had installed on the washing machine. He assured us that the home did have a proper ground spike near the consumer unit and no others were needed.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by AlexO » April 13, 2021, 10:19 am

bluejets wrote:
April 13, 2021, 5:37 am
AlexO wrote:
April 12, 2021, 7:41 am
bluejets wrote:
April 12, 2021, 5:25 am
Drunk Monkey wrote:
April 11, 2021, 8:40 am
question bluejets .. i have earthing points at road side , bore hole water pump location and at the house fuse box but was still advised to use RCB0 breakers for all bathroom, utility room, kitchens and outdoor sockets n lighting etc which i did , in fact half the 24 fuse box breakers are RCBO .. are you saying due to the earthing these breakers are unessesary.
You have read the response tits up as already pointed out.
As far as the main earth stake, this too has been replied to in so far as it's connection to the main neutral in any MEN installation BUT.......
There should only be one earth stake.
Many seem to think the fault current somehow miraculously goes back through the ground but this is not so.
I can show a diagram of fault current path if required.

To answer your query about where to use safety switches, use them everywhere.
No better protection especially in Thailand.
Thing about not using them on lighting or because the circuits might be mixed power and light is a load of cobblers.

The trip current in domestic is 30mA.
The maximum time for trip is 400mS, not 30mS although most will trip anywhere between 15 and 40 and we tend to chuck out anything that tests above 40 on successive tests. Simply not worth the risk.

Most bathroom heaters I've seen there have a saftey switch built in just as an "in case" condition.
Although the Op may have been using something left over from years ago.
Bluejets
There should only be be one earth stake???? An earthing/grounding system with an impedance (resistance) level of more than 1 ohm is just bloody useless. I have seen us having to drive multiple rods of 12 meters and more all connected with thick copper tape and sometimes even chemicals (bentonite) to achieve the required readings. Gents dont be fooled into thinking that just because you have a 1200mm earth rod connected to your system that you are safely earthed. BJ, I take it you were referring to me when you started on about cobblers. If you read the post I said in 'my opinion' about lighting circuits not requiring RCCB?ELCB or whatever term is used these days I stand by that. If you have a circuit with mixed power and lighting connected then yes it needs protected. Stay Safe folks.
And as usual there are those who have zero understanding of the way the earth loop impedance is measured and how , as I pointed out, the fault current circuit exists in an MEN system.

Here we go again.
The earth stake in in an MEN system (which is 99% of Thailand) in your installation is there to hold the mains supply voltage at ground level, that's it.

It is the job of the circuit earths to convey any fault current back to the main Neutral conductor where it then returns to the transformer. This earth loop impedance level is what determins how any circuit breaker reacts to a fault and what type of circuit breaker is required to actually work at it's rated current.

The main earth stake is NOT there to conduct fault current back to the transformer through some fairy dust in some peoples Star Trek imagination, let alone the millions of ohm impedance of some crappy soil, dry or wet.

I stand by every comment I make and if you feel it is pointed at you then my work is done.
Furthermore I suggest you get yourself an electrical education or stay well away from electrical installations.
As usual reverting to personal insults when losing an argument. What is in non technical terms 'holding the voltage at ground level' also never said the earth stake was there to conduct back to the transformer, its there to conduct fault currents to earth/ground as long as the earth loop impedance is not too big ie over 1 ohm. You are attempting to insult someone who was in the industry for many years both as designer and large projects Project Manager so perhaps you should just stick to house wiring and leave the rest to professionals.

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Re: Danger Electric Shock Taking a Shower

Post by AlexO » April 13, 2021, 10:53 am

Characteristics of the MEN System:
The main earthing electrode is installed in a soil that is conductive.

The transformer’s (source of supply) neutral should be earthed.

In the main distribution panel, a link connects neutral and earth.

All the exposed metallic parts of the electrical system are earthed for your customers' safety.


Lets take each point in turn.
How does anyone in a domestic situation in Thailand know the soil is conductive.

When have you ever seen a transformer neutral earthed in Thailand

Fair enough if your using an MEN system which is mandatory in Australia because of crap arid soil conditions.

Common sense in any type of electrical installation.

Any other insults will be most welcome.

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