Income Letter

Here is where we will consolidate all information about Thai visas and work permits (as they are closely related to the type and availability of your visa).
Post Reply
User avatar
semperfiguy
udonmap.com
Posts: 1875
Joined: July 16, 2010, 12:49 pm
Location: Udon Thani, Thailand

Re: Income Letter

Post by semperfiguy » November 2, 2018, 6:17 pm

tamada wrote:
November 2, 2018, 1:08 pm
Screen Shot 2018-11-02.png
The Aussie Embassy has given us a new twist on the monthly income method requirement. This says "average" monthly income which answers the question posed by many about cases where the monthly income may at times be less than 40,000 (or 65,000) and over 40,000 (or 65,000) in other months. There is not mention of an "average" on the official immigration website, so I wonder what Udon Immigration will wind up going with. If it gets too complicated for them they will just simplify it by making up their own set of requirements at the director's discretion.
Attachments
Screen%20Shot%202018-11-02.png
Screen%20Shot%202018-11-02.png (108.22 KiB) Viewed 700 times


"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf". - George Orwell

Mosquito
udonmap.com
Posts: 445
Joined: November 23, 2009, 4:19 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by Mosquito » November 2, 2018, 6:23 pm

fricking amazing how long this tread has been cycling without a firm answer, especially considering some of you live in town.

drove in and asked the lady about US Embassy income letter with the embassy visit this month, she asked the big guy and he confirmed letter issued this month will be good for 6 months.
note: Nong Khai Immigration might be different, so don't assume it'll be the same.

not sayinng things won't change, as they normally do...............but that's the best you're going to get at this point in time.

User avatar
tamada
udonmap.com
Posts: 3495
Joined: February 21, 2007, 4:03 am
Location: down two... then left

Re: Income Letter

Post by tamada » November 3, 2018, 12:13 pm

semperfiguy wrote:
November 2, 2018, 6:17 pm
The Aussie Embassy has given us a new twist on the monthly income method requirement. This says "average" monthly income which answers the question posed by many about cases where the monthly income may at times be less than 40,000 (or 65,000) and over 40,000 (or 65,000) in other months. There is not mention of an "average" on the official immigration website, so I wonder what Udon Immigration will wind up going with. If it gets too complicated for them they will just simplify it by making up their own set of requirements at the director's discretion.
It's pretty much a safe bet that each Immigration Office will make their own interpretation. There's also some ambiguity in the translation of article regards the proof of annual income in the local bank which states:

"(5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,000 as of the filing date"

Does that mean no less than 800,000 income over the year, ie. a simple tabulation of all deposits over the past year?
OR
No less than 800,000 income over the past year AND a closing balance no less than 800,000 as of the filing date?

User avatar
sometimewoodworker
udonmap.com
Posts: 1315
Joined: October 7, 2008, 11:19 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by sometimewoodworker » November 3, 2018, 2:13 pm

tamada wrote:
November 3, 2018, 12:13 pm
semperfiguy wrote:
November 2, 2018, 6:17 pm
The Aussie Embassy has given us a new twist on the monthly income method requirement. This says "average" monthly income which answers the question posed by many about cases where the monthly income may at times be less than 40,000 (or 65,000) and over 40,000 (or 65,000) in other months. There is not mention of an "average" on the official immigration website, so I wonder what Udon Immigration will wind up going with. If it gets too complicated for them they will just simplify it by making up their own set of requirements at the director's discretion.
It's pretty much a safe bet that each Immigration Office will make their own interpretation. There's also some ambiguity in the translation of article regards the proof of annual income in the local bank which states:

"(5) Must have an annual earning and funds deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,000 as of the filing date"

Does that mean no less than 800,000 income over the year, ie. a simple tabulation of all deposits over the past year?
OR
No less than 800,000 income over the past year AND a closing balance no less than 800,000 as of the filing date?
You are confusing

The joint method of deposit and income (there is no information from immigration that non embassy certified income will be accepted) in that method there is no 3 month seasoning in the regulations, but some offices require it, and you (used to be able to) have for example 450,000 bank deposit and annual income of 350,000. In that case you meet the requirement. In the joint method you did not have to have a closing bank balance of 800,000 in that example the closing balance would be 450,000.

The deposit method 800,000 seasoned for 3 months.

And the income method (there is great uncertainty that this will be usable at all in the future) of at least 65,000 per month (total 780,000) possibly an average is actually acceptable. The income method has never applied to deposits into a Thai bank (in the case of retirement)

The only income option that is certain to continue is for married people working in Thailand earning at least 40,000 per month as they will be paying taxes and that income can easily be confirmed by and proved to immigration.

Anybody who is looking at any of the embassy's statements as to what Thai immigration will actually do or any policy that they will announce is probably mistaken.

Thai immigration may surprise us and actually follow the policy's announced by the embassy's but I will not be amazed if they make no policy change which will make the requirements of the income option impossible to meet so a de facto cancellation of that option. Any argument that they must allow it because it's in the regulations is not going to work.

Catch 22 is probably going to apply
Jerome and Nui's new househttp://bit.ly/NJnewHouse

glalt
udonmap.com
Posts: 1553
Joined: January 14, 2007, 10:35 am
Location: Nong Hin, Loei

Re: Income Letter

Post by glalt » November 3, 2018, 2:33 pm

I have always understood that the financial requirements were either or. If you have 800,000 baht in a Thai savings account there is no income requirement. Pretty simple. I also think that if you cannot keep 800,000 in a Thai bank, you really can't afford to live here. I live on that 800,000 during the year and top it back up three months before my extension expires. I am legally married but use the visa based on retirement. It's the easiest way.

Am I missing something? I don't understand the panic situation.

User avatar
sometimewoodworker
udonmap.com
Posts: 1315
Joined: October 7, 2008, 11:19 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by sometimewoodworker » November 3, 2018, 3:42 pm

glalt wrote:
November 3, 2018, 2:33 pm
I have always understood that the financial requirements were either or. If you have 800,000 baht in a Thai savings account there is no income requirement. Pretty simple. I also think that if you cannot keep 800,000 in a Thai bank, you really can't afford to live here. I live on that 800,000 during the year and top it back up three months before my extension expires. I am legally married but use the visa based on retirement. It's the easiest way.

Am I missing something? I don't understand the panic situation.
The extension based on retirement has (had) three options
1) 800k in the bank for 3 months
2) less than 800k in the bank + income total = 800k
3) income of 65k per month

The extension based on marriage doesn't permit the combination method so money in the bank or income.

The panic is that quite a few people can't get 400k or 800k in a Thai bank they just don't have the savings.

Up to today Thai immigration has been silent on alternative ways of proving income, so if they don't do anything the income option will be closed to most people.
Also with the US not asking for proof of income some, people using the US affidavit may not even have had the needed income.

I know 1 Australian who has never been able to meet the requirements and so far has been using the 25k agents to get his extension of stay. So with the new boss he may have to live in Australia with his TW and child.
Jerome and Nui's new househttp://bit.ly/NJnewHouse

Mosquito
udonmap.com
Posts: 445
Joined: November 23, 2009, 4:19 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by Mosquito » November 3, 2018, 8:25 pm

Got my 1.7k bank draft from SCB bank at Central Mall, 30 baht charge.

Verified the Payable Too, American Embassy Bangkok. Was amazed in Khon Kean last year with the number of falangs tbat couldnt follow simple instructions....then blamed the embassy personnel for their screw up.

glalt
udonmap.com
Posts: 1553
Joined: January 14, 2007, 10:35 am
Location: Nong Hin, Loei

Re: Income Letter

Post by glalt » November 3, 2018, 9:15 pm

There are simple things for a simple guy. If things are complicated, I don't think I could prove that I spend 65,000 baht per month. That's why I choose to have the 800,000 baht in the bank.

User avatar
tamada
udonmap.com
Posts: 3495
Joined: February 21, 2007, 4:03 am
Location: down two... then left

Re: Income Letter

Post by tamada » November 3, 2018, 9:28 pm

sometimewoodworker wrote:
November 3, 2018, 2:13 pm
And the income method (there is great uncertainty that this will be usable at all in the future) of at least 65,000 per month (total 780,000) possibly an average is actually acceptable. The income method has never applied to deposits into a Thai bank (in the case of retirement)
I admit it's bloody confusing.

Is this "great uncertainty" based on actual incidents where any Immigration office had been reported as refusing the monthly method when they are remittances to the applicants Thai bank account from overseas, or is it more anecdotal or possibly a worse case scenario by those suggesting that there's worse to follow?

Is the comment "income method has never applied to deposits into a Thai bank (in the case of retirement)" due to evidence of it being actually refused by any immigration office? It's not specifically proscribed in the police orders that handily never mention income letters/sworn affidavits/statutory declarations either. The the more recent inference by the embassies of 3 countries that Thai Immigration finds these income letters/sworn affidavits/statutory declarations not fit for purpose suggest that as far as income letters are concerned, Thai Immigration invented them to fit the status quo back then and they are entitled to make them go away now.

User avatar
sometimewoodworker
udonmap.com
Posts: 1315
Joined: October 7, 2008, 11:19 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by sometimewoodworker » November 4, 2018, 8:36 am

tamada wrote:
November 3, 2018, 9:28 pm


I admit it's bloody confusing.

Is this "great uncertainty" based on actual incidents where any Immigration office had been reported as refusing the monthly method when they are remittances to the applicants Thai bank account from overseas, or is it more anecdotal or possibly a worse case scenario by those suggesting that there's worse to follow?

Is the comment "income method has never applied to deposits into a Thai bank (in the case of retirement)" due to evidence of it being actually refused by any immigration office? It's not specifically proscribed in the police orders that handily never mention income letters/sworn affidavits/statutory declarations either. The the more recent inference by the embassies of 3 countries that Thai Immigration finds these income letters/sworn affidavits/statutory declarations not fit for purpose suggest that as far as income letters are concerned, Thai Immigration invented them to fit the status quo back then and they are entitled to make them go away now.
As far as I know nobody has successfully used money paid into a Thai bank for an extension based on retirement (incidentally for married workers the tax forms, I think, are the proof not bank deposits ). I don't know of anyone who has tried as it was never suggested that it was acceptable.

As to the embassy documents you are correct that they are not in the police order. (I don't have the exact wording in front of my but I think it says you must prove the income) up to now the embassy documents were the only proof accepted even though the embassy's did not check (US) or guarantee that the income was real.

It looks as though (maybe because the US affidavit was so open to fraud) immigration is now insisting on real proof. So you are correct in saying that for years they were accepted by default and immigration is perfectly entitled to require that they actually prove income and the US UK and Australian embassy's will not do that.

So far immigration has not offered an alternative acceptable proof for income, probably because they want it to be genuine. There are ways already being suggested to recycle money deposits to fake the income and whatever we may think about the immigration officers they are not stupid, many have good English reading skills and I'm sure one or more them are reading ThaiVisa and other places where this is being discussed.
Jerome and Nui's new househttp://bit.ly/NJnewHouse

pal52
udonmap.com
Posts: 706
Joined: September 18, 2013, 10:54 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by pal52 » November 4, 2018, 9:00 am

A friend of mine has just received his letter from the British Embassy.

In order to get this he had to provide bank statements from UK.
The bank statements showed his pension being paid into his bank & were stamped DWP against the deposit.
This is Department of Works & Pensions.

To get his original Non O visa he had to do the same with statements stamped DWP which were accepted at the Thai Embassy in London where there was no problem getting a 1 year visa based on Retirement.

I can not see why the UK Embassy will refuse to issue the letter if you provide statements stamped DWP.
With the case of Private Pensions surely a statement from the Pension fund would be suffice.

The US Embassy letters are a different case.

User avatar
sometimewoodworker
udonmap.com
Posts: 1315
Joined: October 7, 2008, 11:19 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by sometimewoodworker » November 4, 2018, 11:48 am

pal52 wrote:
November 4, 2018, 9:00 am
A friend of mine has just received his letter from the British Embassy.

In order to get this he had to provide bank statements from UK.
The bank statements showed his pension being paid into his bank & were stamped DWP against the deposit.
This is Department of Works & Pensions.

To get his original Non O visa he had to do the same with statements stamped DWP which were accepted at the Thai Embassy in London where there was no problem getting a 1 year visa based on Retirement.

I can not see why the UK Embassy will refuse to issue the letter if you provide statements stamped DWP.
With the case of Private Pensions surely a statement from the Pension fund would be suffice.

The US Embassy letters are a different case.
You would think that the British embassy would be able to authenticate the documents that have to be provided together with a P60 that a private pension provides, but they seem to be refusing to do that, even though the payment into the account is not only given as DWP but also the national insurance number of the individual it's being paid to.

My only guess is that the embassy may have some weasel words on the letter or have told the Thai immigration that they don't guarantee the accuracy of the information, and now that is no longer good enough, I also think that the US Embassy letters system abuse, with people openly boasting about it, may have been a trigger for the action and everyone else is collateral damage.
Jerome and Nui's new househttp://bit.ly/NJnewHouse

pal52
udonmap.com
Posts: 706
Joined: September 18, 2013, 10:54 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by pal52 » November 4, 2018, 12:10 pm

What about people from Scandinavian countries.
Do they get letters from their Embassy's for pensions etc.
There are a lot of members on the Forum from Denmark, Norway etc.
Are these Embassy's continuing to supply letters.

User avatar
Brian Davis
udonmap.com
Posts: 2136
Joined: January 26, 2008, 8:14 pm
Location: Phen (Udon Thani Province)

Re: Income Letter

Post by Brian Davis » November 4, 2018, 2:09 pm

I've just read the whole topic in the hope of gaining some clarity, but I'm left with the hope the Embassies or Immigration will issue further clear guidance. I did say hope.
Can someone just confirm unequivocally how long Immigration regards Embassy income letters valid for? Yes, I appreciate what was said yesterday by an officer might not be the same today and there might remain a query on same calendar year requirement. With an extension based on marriage due in February, I'm hoping Immigration will still accept an Embassy letter dated next month and I'll "get sorted" as normal, whilst the mess is resolved. I've got a 90 day soon, so I'll ask again then.
tamada wrote:
November 3, 2018, 9:28 pm
......Is the comment "income method has never applied to deposits into a Thai bank (in the case of retirement)" due to evidence of it being actually refused by any immigration office? ......
sometimewoodworker wrote:
November 4, 2018, 8:36 am
....As far as I know nobody has successfully used money paid into a Thai bank for an extension based on retirement (incidentally for married workers the tax forms, I think, are the proof not bank deposits ). I don't know of anyone who has tried as it was never suggested that it was acceptable........
Above quotes caused me confusion. Years back, I used to obtain a retirement visa, using a bank letter, statement and the bank book (all in agreement on balance) as financial evidence, although I think it was a lump sum figure, rather than regular monthly income to be shown. So, the belief now is that one cannot use the regular income method to a Thai bank as financial evidence for a retirement visa?
My interest is, of course, a marriage visa and, I think, perhaps the suggestion was one COULD use the income method to a Thai bank for that, but ONLY if working? I don't work!
Personally, I can't see much difference between an Embassy letter and information provided by the bank on regular income. If anything, one might think the latter was more acceptable to Immigration, as a simple check of the bank statement (covering the last year) shows the hard cash actually arriving, in my case from four UK pension providers.
This all seems an unnecessary hassle, dare I say for someone like myself, who has been satisfying Immigration requirements for years already. Do files/computer records mean nothing?

User avatar
sometimewoodworker
udonmap.com
Posts: 1315
Joined: October 7, 2008, 11:19 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by sometimewoodworker » November 4, 2018, 2:51 pm

Brian Davis wrote:
November 4, 2018, 2:09 pm
I've just read the whole topic in the hope of gaining some clarity, but I'm left with the hope the Embassies or Immigration will issue further clear guidance. I did say hope.
Can someone just confirm unequivocally how long Immigration regards Embassy income letters valid for?
it is valid for 6 months and for British citizens you must apply at the very latest by 12 December. There is no report of Udon immigration requirements being shorter, other offices may well be (and are) different.

The embassy's are claiming that deposits into a Thai bank will be OK, there is a deafening silence from immigration on that point.

What ever the embassy's say is irrelevant.

The only information that is of any use has to come from Thai immigration.
Brian Davis wrote:
November 4, 2018, 2:09 pm
Yes, I appreciate what was said yesterday by an officer might not be the same today and there might remain a query on same calendar year requirement. With an extension based on marriage due in February, I'm hoping Immigration will still accept an Embassy letter dated next month and I'll "get sorted" as normal, whilst the mess is resolved. I've got a 90 day soon, so I'll ask again then.
That certainly will not do any harm and you may get new information.

But as income letters will almost certainly be usable until mid June (in Udon Thani) there may be nothing new
sometimewoodworker wrote:
November 4, 2018, 8:36 am
....As far as I know nobody has successfully used money paid into a Thai bank for an extension based on retirement (incidentally for married workers the tax forms, I think, are the proof not bank deposits ). I don't know of anyone who has tried as it was never suggested that it was acceptable........
Brian Davis wrote:
November 4, 2018, 2:09 pm
Above quotes caused me confusion. Years back, I used to obtain a retirement visa, using a bank letter, statement and the bank book (all in agreement on balance) as financial evidence, although I think it was a lump sum figure, rather than regular monthly income to be shown.
It almost certainly was the lump sum, and an extension of stay not a visa
Brian Davis wrote:
November 4, 2018, 2:09 pm

So, the belief now is that one cannot use the regular income method to a Thai bank as financial evidence for a retirement visa?
I don't know of anyone who has ever been able to get an extension of stay (not a visa) using that.

Brian Davis wrote:
November 4, 2018, 2:09 pm

My interest is, of course, a marriage visa and, I think, perhaps the suggestion was one COULD use the income method to a Thai bank for that, but ONLY if working? I don't work!
If working in Thailand on a marriage extension (not visa) you can still use the income method, though I don't know exactly how you show the amount, a tax return or some kind of official paper from your employer I assume.

Brian Davis wrote:
November 4, 2018, 2:09 pm
Personally, I can't see much difference between an Embassy letter and information provided by the bank on regular income. If anything, one might think the latter was more acceptable to Immigration, as a simple check of the bank statement (covering the last year) shows the hard cash actually arriving, in my case from four UK pension providers.
This all seems an unnecessary hassle, dare I say for someone like myself, who has been satisfying Immigration requirements for years already.
This has been talked about previously
Brian Davis wrote:
November 4, 2018, 2:09 pm
Do files/computer records mean nothing?
No they don't TIT :roll:
Jerome and Nui's new househttp://bit.ly/NJnewHouse

User avatar
Brian Davis
udonmap.com
Posts: 2136
Joined: January 26, 2008, 8:14 pm
Location: Phen (Udon Thani Province)

Re: Income Letter

Post by Brian Davis » November 4, 2018, 4:11 pm

Thanks sometimewoodworker. And yes I do realise my repetitive error of saying visa, rather than extension.

User avatar
sometimewoodworker
udonmap.com
Posts: 1315
Joined: October 7, 2008, 11:19 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by sometimewoodworker » November 4, 2018, 5:26 pm

Brian Davis wrote:
November 4, 2018, 4:11 pm
Thanks sometimewoodworker. And yes I do realise my repetitive error of saying visa, rather than extension.
No problem,

The reason I always correct the terminology is that there are different rules for Visas and extensions of stay and they will bite you.

For example if you have an extension of stay, go out through immigration without a reentry permit and then do not go to the reentry permit desk you loose the extension. It's your responsibility to know this not the IO stamping you out to tell you, and there are only a few international airports that have reentry permit desks.
Jerome and Nui's new househttp://bit.ly/NJnewHouse

User avatar
Brian Davis
udonmap.com
Posts: 2136
Joined: January 26, 2008, 8:14 pm
Location: Phen (Udon Thani Province)

Re: Income Letter

Post by Brian Davis » November 5, 2018, 10:04 am

Just reading that message from the Embassy again, I see the main text states 400,000 baht required in bank for THREE months for a marriage visa (their terminology, not mine), whilst in Further Information further below, it refers to a TWO months requirement! :lol:

minimiglia
udonmap.com
Posts: 328
Joined: January 31, 2017, 10:24 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by minimiglia » November 5, 2018, 10:31 am

2 months is for your first ever extention, 3 months for the next time 1 year later

tutone
udonmap.com
Posts: 424
Joined: July 7, 2008, 3:15 am

Re: Income Letter

Post by tutone » November 5, 2018, 12:42 pm

I visited the immigration office this morning and explained to an officer there that my renewal date for my one year extension is 6 May 2019 and that I could obtain an income affidavit on 7 November (this Wednesday) from the U.S. embassy outreach here in Udon. I asked him if I would be able to use the affidavit when I renewed in May. After some strange ritual that involved finger counting and a numbers game akin to picking the winning lottery combination he determined that the 6 month validity of the affidavit should be okay for my next renewal, but to be on the safe side to come in a month early. It was all I could do not to leap across the desk and give him a lesson in basic math. I mean it took him like three tries to determine that May is 6 months from November.

On a side note he said that in the future I would have to have 800,000 Baht in the bank and that he had no knowledge about using monthly income to qualify.

Post Reply

Return to “Thailand Visa & Immigration Information”