Income Letter

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RLTrader
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Re: Income Letter

Post by RLTrader » November 17, 2018, 5:21 pm

From another site
Just stopped in Immigration in Pathum Thani.


As of 1 Jan 2019. Only way to renew a retirement visa is to have 800,000 in a Thai bank for 3 month in a single (your name only) account. If joint account with spouse, the amount doubles.

No monthly pay records or other documentation will suffice.
Hmm, I see a flooded market in Home, Car, and bike sales in 2019. Buyer's Market.



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sometimewoodworker
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Re: Income Letter

Post by sometimewoodworker » November 17, 2018, 5:26 pm

Brian Davis wrote:
November 17, 2018, 4:20 pm

As Immigration is introducing new procedures from February, I don't see any problem before then. It's what Immigration decides from February on which matters,
Do please let me know where you have information about new procedures being introduced, I haven't seen anything about that and would like to be current.
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Re: Income Letter

Post by LoneTraveler » November 18, 2018, 10:15 am

RLTrader wrote:
November 17, 2018, 5:21 pm
From another site
Just stopped in Immigration in Pathum Thani.


As of 1 Jan 2019. Only way to renew a retirement visa is to have 800,000 in a Thai bank for 3 month in a single (your name only) account. If joint account with spouse, the amount doubles.

No monthly pay records or other documentation will suffice.
Hmm, I see a flooded market in Home, Car, and bike sales in 2019. Buyer's Market.
I would like to know of a way to track how many foreigners leave because they can not meet the Immigration income requirement as of July 01 2019. And to know how many foreigners who were planning to retire in Thailand in the near further decide to go elsewhere or, stay put in their home countries because of the uncertainty of future Immigration policies. And the direct deposit of funds situation which will no longer be accepted by Bangkok Bank NY in the current ACH format after April 01, 2019.

I have decided to go for the 800000 in a Thai bank because of the uncertainty after 01 Jan. 2019. I will have a tight budget for the next 7 months but at least it will be worth it rather than waiting on Immigration clarification as to whether they will accept 65000 monthly in bank. My mistake, was assuming the income letter of verification would be accepted into eternity. I did not factor in TIT.

Although, there was a period when I was in Jomtien maybe 6 or 7 years ago that Immigration required a bank letter same day as application, bank book updated, copy of credit card and the Embassy income verification letter for an extension. Perhaps someone remembers this scenario.

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Brian Davis
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Re: Income Letter

Post by Brian Davis » November 18, 2018, 11:43 am

sometimewoodworker wrote:
November 17, 2018, 5:26 pm
Brian Davis wrote:
November 17, 2018, 4:20 pm

As Immigration is introducing new procedures from February, I don't see any problem before then. It's what Immigration decides from February on which matters,
Do please let me know where you have information about new procedures being introduced, I haven't seen anything about that and would like to be current.
Ah, do I sense some sarcasm? Ok, I’ll bite – perhaps you prefer “Immigration has introduced a new procedure not accepting income letters”! It seems your dealings with Immigration have always gone wonderfully well, you’re entirely sure of the interpretation of details and you’ve never had any ‘surprises’ with an Officer seeing things differently. Good for you.
This change, if that’s the word you prefer, has caused many to consider that whatever alternative they choose to use in lieu of the income letter doesn’t fall down at Immigration because of “small print”, different interpretation of details, or just not doing it the way Immigration insists upon. And don’t they love red tape, although there are ways around that! Of course, much of the small print is never actually written down anyway, but acquired by word of mouth, or through forums such as this.
So there is, apparently, guidance issued at of Bangkok, but local Immigration Offices have raised queries. The basic systems/rules may not differ, but interpretations may, particularly in relation to what has occurred before, if the Army/Police are ‘tightening up’ e.g. as I understand it, they want to ensure money is brought into Thailand, not made here, at least not unofficially. So, I suggest the way Immigration sees things and acts MAY be different. I’d call that a new procedure(interpretation), you wouldn’t. And I’d be very surprised if Immigration produces further written information, rather than the basic information in leaflets.
Anyway, enough of this. Id like to think foreigners are armed (no, not literally) with accurate information to support an application, although I feel some things will have to be dragged out of Immigration, rather than it being openly published.

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sometimewoodworker
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Re: Income Letter

Post by sometimewoodworker » November 18, 2018, 2:26 pm

Brian Davis wrote:
November 18, 2018, 11:43 am
sometimewoodworker wrote:
November 17, 2018, 5:26 pm
Brian Davis wrote:
November 17, 2018, 4:20 pm

As Immigration is introducing new procedures from February, I don't see any problem before then. It's what Immigration decides from February on which matters,
Do please let me know where you have information about new procedures being introduced, I haven't seen anything about that and would like to be current.
Ah, do I sense some sarcasm? Ok, I’ll bite –
None at all, a genuine request for information as nobody else has mentioned anything different than is already being discussed. No changes that have been mentioned about immigration procedures and nothing about February, (embassy's are making changes not immigration, at least not publicly, so far)

I thought you had something new.
Last edited by sometimewoodworker on November 18, 2018, 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lone Star
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Re: Income Letter

Post by Lone Star » November 18, 2018, 2:29 pm

LoneTraveler wrote:
November 18, 2018, 10:15 am

. . .

I have decided to go for the 800000 in a Thai bank because of the uncertainty after 01 Jan. 2019. I will have a tight budget for the next 7 months but at least it will be worth it rather than waiting on Immigration clarification as to whether they will accept 65000 monthly in bank.

. . .
Based on my bi-weekly checks with Udon Immigration, this is probably the safest bet for approval as of this writing. Good move.

As this process evolves, there may be other options, but there is no definitive timeline for that to happen. Head on a swivel. Prepare for anything.
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Re: Income Letter

Post by LoneTraveler » November 18, 2018, 3:52 pm

Lone Star wrote:
November 18, 2018, 2:29 pm
LoneTraveler wrote:
November 18, 2018, 10:15 am

. . .

I have decided to go for the 800000 in a Thai bank because of the uncertainty after 01 Jan. 2019. I will have a tight budget for the next 7 months but at least it will be worth it rather than waiting on Immigration clarification as to whether they will accept 65000 monthly in bank.

. . .
Based on my bi-weekly checks with Udon Immigration, this is probably the safest bet for approval as of this writing. Good move.

As this process evolves, there may be other options, but there is no definitive timeline for that to happen. Head on a swivel. Prepare for anything.
At this point immigration policy has been very clear for as many years as I have been here, however, The income verification letter made it a lot easier for the extension(s). I always had a feeling that something was going to change either they would increase the yearly amount or have incomes verify through Bank statement and books. SO I am not too surprised as to what is happening now.

However one thing that has been bugging me is this issue of BKK bank no longer accepting ACH money transfers. I thought this was a new law required by the US treasury to take effect April 01 2019. The fact is, all fund transfers were required to be in IAT format for US government pensions and others as well. ACH transfer of funds is from my bank in NY to BKK bank in NY and is considered a domestic transfer. Therefore Bangkok will no longer accept my ACH domestic transfer because my bank says they will not send funds out in IAT format only receive them. But, Social Security payments were required to be in IAT format as of September 18 2009. Hense the Identify issue of having to have to present passport to obtain fund, part of the IAT format requirement. So it is that Bangkok Bank will not accept domestic ACH transfers effective April 01 2019 but make accept social security because it should be transferred to BKK in IAT format as of September 18 2009. Check the info on the web sites to see if I have interpreted this information correctly.
Familiarize yourself with new NACHA rules related to international ACH transactions. You need to google this as well as www.nacha.org I hope someone can agree with me on interpreting this information. My next stop is to go to BKK bank in udon and get a printout of my last transfer to verify the format that the SSA is send funds.

Sorry for the long winded response but that issue of ACH vs IAT format was really bothering me and I was not reading any information to clarify what that entailed. It is BKK in NY that is the problem with domestic ACH transfers of funds.

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Re: Income Letter

Post by LoneTraveler » November 18, 2018, 3:59 pm

One thing I just though of as I was writing concerning SSA benefit funds may be considered a domestic ACH transfer because it is going to BKK in NY. It looks like I have to look into further.

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Re: Income Letter

Post by LoneTraveler » November 18, 2018, 4:09 pm

SSA benefit payments that are sent overseas from within the US need to be in IAT format so the question remains, are the SSA benefits being sent to BKK in NY considered domestic ACH transfers or are they considered payments overseas which required IAT format. I asked the SSA in Manila that very question but I have not received a response yet. OK I just gave myself a headache.

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Re: Income Letter

Post by Lone Star » November 18, 2018, 4:18 pm

LoneTraveler wrote:
November 18, 2018, 3:52 pm

. . .

However one thing that has been bugging me is this issue of BKK bank no longer accepting ACH money transfers. I thought this was a new law required by the US treasury to take effect April 01 2019. The fact is, all fund transfers were required to be in IAT format for US government pensions and others as well. ACH transfer of funds is from my bank in NY to BKK bank in NY and is considered a domestic transfer. Therefore Bangkok will no longer accept my ACH domestic transfer because my bank says they will not send funds out in IAT format only receive them. But, Social Security payments were required to be in IAT format as of September 18 2009. Hense the Identify issue of having to have to present passport to obtain fund, part of the IAT format requirement. So it is that Bangkok Bank will not accept domestic ACH transfers effective April 01 2019 but make accept social security because it should be transferred to BKK in IAT format as of September 18 2009. Check the info on the web sites to see if I have interpreted this information correctly.
Familiarize yourself with new NACHA rules related to international ACH transactions. You need to google this as well as www.nacha.org I hope someone can agree with me on interpreting this information. My next stop is to go to BKK bank in udon and get a printout of my last transfer to verify the format that the SSA is send funds.

Sorry for the long winded response but that issue of ACH vs IAT format was really bothering me and I was not reading any information to clarify what that entailed. It is BKK in NY that is the problem with domestic ACH transfers of funds.
From the day I set foot here -- over 10 years ago now -- I always used the income letter for immigration's requirement for income verification.

I also never used any type of international ACH or IAT or even wire transfers to Thailand banks for the purpose of any immigration income requirement. I've always had an ATM card that refunds all international ATM fees every month, so I just made ATM withdrawals to get monthly operating cash from my US banks.

I'll go take a look at those links you provided in order to be prepared for anything. Thanks!

Just an opinion here, but I think anything that is going to require any intense analysis on the part of an IO -- like examining monthly deposits (whether reflecting an international source or just a cash deposit) -- is going to be too much work. I'm only saying this due to my witnessing their imploring of foreigners to go the "retirement visa" route rather than the "marriage visa" route with its voluminous paperwork and time processing. I can just imagine the time of going through a year of deposits and withdrawals and calculations of same to meet the requirement. However, I could be completely wrong about this prediction; and I will be shocked if they agree to this exercise. But I already have a simple plan to take advantage of this should the monthly bank book transactions be acceptable. :D

And then there is the forever present fact that the IO has the final say on everything anyway -- as has been pointed out by our friend in Nong Khai, who weren't allowed to use an income letter for quite a long time.

Safest bet today: money (400,000 or 800,000) in the bank 3 months before renewal unless my neighborhood IO tells me otherwise.
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Re: Income Letter

Post by Lone Star » November 18, 2018, 4:20 pm

LoneTraveler wrote:
November 18, 2018, 3:59 pm
One thing I just though of as I was writing concerning SSA benefit funds may be considered a domestic ACH transfer because it is going to BKK in NY. It looks like I have to look into further.
Yes, I had the same thought. Since the branch is in the US, it is a domestic transaction.
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Re: Income Letter

Post by Stantheman » November 18, 2018, 11:53 pm

Lone Star wrote:
November 18, 2018, 4:20 pm
LoneTraveler wrote:
November 18, 2018, 3:59 pm
One thing I just though of as I was writing concerning SSA benefit funds may be considered a domestic ACH transfer because it is going to BKK in NY. It looks like I have to look into further.
Yes, I had the same thought. Since the branch is in the US, it is a domestic transaction.
Why don't transfer directly to your Bangkok Bank account in Thailand from SSA, bypassing their New York office. The fees to convert from dollars to baht would be the same and you would not be charged the small fee charged by the New York office.

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Re: Income Letter

Post by mak » November 19, 2018, 7:05 am

Useful info from Thaivisa:

If you have a US SSA direct deposit, the FIRST CONCERN is to find out if you are set up for IAT format or not. The easy way is to go direct to your Bangkok Bank branch. Have them pull up your accounts on their computer, then pull up the most recent direct deposit transaction. They can then pull up details of that transaction. On the details page look on the right had side toward the middle of the page, there are some codes. If you see IAT-Th, then you are OK. Your direct deposit is in the correct format and will continue as normal after April 1, 2019. Not all SSA direct deposits are in IAT format. Apparently some direct deposits were set up incorrectly (see preceding post) so you may not be OK. Your best recourse would be as per the above post and call SSA Baltimore. I have talked with SSA in Manilla and they won't even bother to check what the format is, let alone assist with correcting it. Bangkok Bank New York also will only tell you to talk to SSA and not even check your format for you.
Last edited by mak on November 19, 2018, 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Income Letter

Post by mak » November 19, 2018, 7:09 am

--The current BKKB system for domestic ACH transfers from the U.S. to Thailand via their NY branch is ENDING as of April 1, 2019. The online U.S. ACH domestic transfers you have been doing all along to BKKB NY will no longer function after that point.



--The end of the current domestic ACH transfers system for the NY branch, according to BKKB, will have NO IMPACT on the current Social Security and any other federal government direct deposit arrangements already existing thru BKKB.

From Thaivisa:
I am currently in the process of changing my direct deposit accounts with the SSA. And I noticed something:



It isn't to do with addresses. It's the way Bangkok Bank processes your paperwork when you first open a direct deposit acc. or change to a new one. When you apply, in Thailand, for a U.S. SSI direct deposit account the Thai bank (in Thailand) fill out a 1199A form they keep on hand, which is the standard U.S. gov 'Direct Deposit Signup Form.'



Section 1 is filled out by the payee. Section 2 is filled out by the payee or financial institution. Section 3 is to be filled out by the Banking institution.. that's where the problem is, and that's where IAT or domestic will come in: I've found some banks (like my old branch up in Udon Thani) fill the main part in section 3: 'Name and address of financial institution' .. with the Bangkok Bank Public Co. Limited, New York City. And not the local Thai branch or your local bank, where you will receive your money!



If they fill out Section of the 1199A this way, it will be processed by SSA as 'domestic!' As 'New York' is domestic.. What you want to happen is to ensure that your bank branch in Thailand, where you might apply or change your direct deposit acc., fills this part of section 3 in with the their local Thai branch address, in Thailand, and Not use the New York address! .. like they did with mine up in Udon, when I first applied!



I just got off the phone after a 2 hr. call to Baltimore with the SSA Office of International Operations, where I found out my account is Not IAT, but indeed domestic. I have long moved and am now changing my direct deposit acc. to my new location farther south.



After leaving the bank branch just yesterday with my new acc. no. and a copy of my 1199A, I see they too, same as 2 years back in Udon, filled in section 3 using the New York Bangkok Bank address along with the routing no., which stays same.. SSA in Baltimore told me to go back and have them change section 3 to reflect the local Thai branch address, as per IAT requirements. Then they will have the correct local foreign branch address. So, back to the bank tomorrow. Then I will fax this to Baltimore as instructed, and hope for the best..

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Re: Income Letter

Post by LoneTraveler » November 19, 2018, 9:54 am

mak wrote:
November 19, 2018, 7:05 am
Useful info from Thaivisa:

If you have a US SSA direct deposit, the FIRST CONCERN is to find out if you are set up for IAT format or not. The easy way is to go direct to your Bangkok Bank branch. Have them pull up your accounts on their computer, then pull up the most recent direct deposit transaction. They can then pull up details of that transaction. On the details page look on the right had side toward the middle of the page, there are some codes. If you see IAT-Th, then you are OK. Your direct deposit is in the correct format and will continue as normal after April 1, 2019. Not all SSA direct deposits are in IAT format. Apparently some direct deposits were set up incorrectly (see preceding post) so you may not be OK. Your best recourse would be as per the above post and call SSA Baltimore. I have talked with SSA in Manilla and they won't even bother to check what the format is, let alone assist with correcting it. Bangkok Bank New York also will only tell you to talk to SSA and not even check your format for you.
Yes, I just received a response for SSA in Manila, it appears they cannot determine a general question vs a specific question about my account. To answer a general question concerning ACH transfer and IAT transfer. They want all the personal information I gave them when I applied for SS benefits before they will answer any questions.

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Re: Income Letter

Post by RLTrader » November 20, 2018, 7:44 pm

My Guess at what Thailand (Udon) Immigration will do as a “work-around” for Western Governments ending Notarizing “Income Letters”.

They will accept a deposit of 34k(married) / 67k(retirement) per month into a Thai Bank Account as proof of income. (my numbers) (might need a special account just for this? otherwise a bear to verify!)

or

the current 400k(married) / 800k(retirement) in a Thai Bank Account 3 months prior to application.

Both of above need to come from a foreign source? (So 400k/800k every year?)

This just might help most of us, but not all of us.

Questions I would have

Can I transfer the monies myself from a American Bank? This could be made automatic from my American account? This I could live with, for other funds would be available to pay other things from the American Account.

The other Problem is the exchange rate. One would need to keep an eye on the exchange rate, for ONE Month below could/would disqualify one. Too Much is better.

Notes in the Margin

From other sites 2 things

1. Income Letters that are no older than 6 months will be accepted in Udon immigration.

2. The above work-around is not my idea, but seems to come from someone at Udon immigration.

3. No I did not save any links, remember This is My Guess. Do your own and post, and
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Re: Income Letter

Post by Giggle » November 20, 2018, 8:05 pm

RLTrader wrote:
November 20, 2018, 7:44 pm
Do your own and post.
OK. Immigration doesn't care how much you make. They'd much prefer (soon, demand) you keep a wad in a Thai bank so that when you croak and leave a Thai hospital holding the ------ end of a 1- or 2-million unpaid bill, they have at least some recourse. If you smash up a family riding their scooter, they have a tangible source in which to tap into pay your bills. Thais can put up with a lot of crap, but getting duped by a farang for a tidy sum of money is not one of them. Separating people from their money is THEIR job, not yours. Whoever called it a security deposit earlier (on this thread I think) has it figured out.

That's what this is all about.

If the money you have, or claim to have, is out of their reach, it's as if you don't have it at all. Put the required money in the bank or you are not welcome here anymore. And watch the instances of farangs "deposit" being raided when they die with unpaid bills or have a cock-up of monstrous proportions such that the police must get involved.

It's also comforting for opportunists to know every farang has 800k readily accessible and there for quick exploitation. It's uncomfortable for Thais to come out and say it bluntly, so I have. It's just my guess.
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Re: Income Letter

Post by Stantheman » November 20, 2018, 9:11 pm

Just my obervation from reading all the posts on this page. The problem is not that immigration will not accept income letters, it's the Embassy's refusal to verify the income, whether it's possible to verify or not.

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Re: Income Letter

Post by FrazeeDK » November 20, 2018, 10:17 pm

but, does anyone know for sure if the Thai government possibly made requests to the various embassies to cease issuing income affadavits? T'is a bit coincidental that one by one western embassies seem to be adopting the same policy..
Dave

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Re: Income Letter

Post by Old Grumpy » December 5, 2018, 7:20 am

Well wasn't going to add to the various conflicting reports on this subject but some info my wife got last weekend concerned me enough to start searching for alternatives available to me, which raised this topic so I thought I would. Let me start by saying it's up to you how you take it, nothing in writing was given , just a verbal advice from a fairly senior IO who doesn't normally get involved in this side of things, he works at the airport dealing with offenders.His family home is near us so ny wife rang him to help me .I was going to get the income letter from the British embassy before their cut off date to use in May when my visa expires so his advise was about this. He said, a meeting on the subject of income letters was held and apparently the banks had mostly expressed they were unable to produce a letter about monthly deposits that would give the guarantees immigration were seeking, a bit like the embassy situation I would imagine, but could only detail the sum held in account of an individual .This led to the meeting suggesting that the monthly income and the joint one for retirement could not be verified to their satisfaction so would be dropped, leaving the lump sum in the bank as the only one acceptable. It was then suggested that the cut off date would be dec 31st. So his advise was, don't waste money in obtaining the embassy letter in advance it won't any good .
So as you can see , nothing in stone for us to go on but sufficient to know how the think tank is working and make me look at alternatives. No going home is not one of them.
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