Will Trump concede?

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Whistler
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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by Whistler » February 13, 2021, 11:31 am

glalt wrote:
February 13, 2021, 11:04 am
Cancelling the XL Pipeline is going to make more lawyers rich. I would expect hundreds of huge law suits asking for damages because of Biden's stroke of the pen. Who is going to pay for the billions of dollars already invested? What will happen to the sections already completed? Will Canada try to recover their investment and damages to their economy? Will the railroads build more oil tankers to transport their Canadian oil? Will the cancelled coal fired power generating plants start back up? How is the cancellation going to affect global warming? The bottom line is that this is going to be a MASSIVE can of worms that will no doubt backfire big time.
A very alarmist view. This extension pipeline was never started, no sections have been completed. Obama cancelled it in 2015, Trump cynically reversed that just a few weeks ago as a grenade to lob into the Oval office on his departure. He knew Biden would quickly ban it, but did it as a spiteful action. Every expert considers the product to be the dirtiest fossil fuel available, with the oil industry contracting, it would be a poor choice when there is plentiful cleaner oil from other sources.

Since it was announced in 2008, it was always an environmentally challenging project. No coal powered generation plants were decommissioned in anticipation of the project, which would have taken years to complete. Yes it would have created short term jobs, but those can easily be diverted to more sustainable energy developments.

For more info https://www.nrdc.org/stories/what-keystone-pipeline


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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by Kenr6583 » February 13, 2021, 4:01 pm

There will be no repercussions for the cancellation of the XL pipeline project. Canada has no legal standing for anything that happens in the United States. If you read Trump's executive order, it clearly states that the POTUS can cancel the permit at any time. You should do your homework.

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by tamada » February 13, 2021, 5:13 pm

glalt wrote:
February 13, 2021, 11:04 am
Cancelling the XL Pipeline is going to make more lawyers rich. I would expect hundreds of huge law suits asking for damages because of Biden's stroke of the pen. Who is going to pay for the billions of dollars already invested? What will happen to the sections already completed? Will Canada try to recover their investment and damages to their economy? Will the railroads build more oil tankers to transport their Canadian oil? Will the cancelled coal fired power generating plants start back up? How is the cancellation going to affect global warming? The bottom line is that this is going to be a MASSIVE can of worms that will no doubt backfire big time.
I was watching Fox News as usual and saw their tear-jerking expose of a poor young American couple being cheated out of completing their dream home and a mother fearing being unable to send their kids to college because Biden had canceled the KXL pipeline. The story was littered with imagery of guys standing idly around their dually pickups in work gear and hard hats and included some shots of a pipeline being laid.

Inspired by glalts question about what will happen with the bits of pipeline already completed, a quick check on wiki and elsewhere revealed that beyond work camps, pump stations and other infrastructure, not much of any pipe has actually been laid. Ever since Trump signed it into action back in those heady days of his "lets reverse everything Obama has done" administration, it has been stymied and stalled in courts on both sides of the border.

So to sum it up, Fox News presented some fake news... who would have thought, eh? Job losses so far amount to 1000 Americans and Canadians.

https://www.worldoil.com/news/2021/1/21 ... ncellation

Here's some industry opinion on how irrelevant the KXL pipeline is/was. Pretty much answers most of glalt's remaining concerns (but I agree, the lawyers are probably laughing all the way to the bank).

https://www.oilsandsmagazine.com/news/2 ... h-any-more

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by Kenr6583 » February 13, 2021, 9:08 pm

It's funny that you are worried about 1,000 temporary jobs glalt, where was your outrage when all those farmers had to file for bankruptcy due to Trump's trade war that accomplished nothing? These pipeline jobs were temporary, those farms had probably been operational for decades. Where is your outrage for all the thousands of small businesses that have had to shut their doors permanently due to Trump's incompetence of handling the coronavirus? You are worried about 1,000 temporary jobs? Get real.

You sound like that hypocrite Ted Cruz, complaining how Biden is destroying good union paying jobs when he and the GOP have done nothing in the past decades but try to destroy union jobs.

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by Whistler » February 13, 2021, 10:15 pm

Kenr6583 wrote:
February 13, 2021, 9:08 pm
It's funny that you are worried about 1,000 temporary jobs glalt, where was your outrage when all those farmers had to file for bankruptcy due to Trump's trade war that accomplished nothing? These pipeline jobs were temporary, those farms had probably been operational for decades. Where is your outrage for all the thousands of small businesses that have had to shut their doors permanently due to Trump's incompetence of handling the coronavirus? You are worried about 1,000 temporary jobs? Get real.

You sound like that hypocrite Ted Cruz, complaining how Biden is destroying good union paying jobs when he and the GOP have done nothing in the past decades but try to destroy union jobs.
Ken,

Logic and facts have nothing to do with entrenched bias. The vilification of anything not evangelical Christian, pro alt-right fascist ideology has been building in the US for many years. This backward looking ideology is entrenched. If you support the old America you are a patriot, if you don't, you are a socialist, Antifa, extreme leftist traitor. You are a snowflake, a woke idealist, you are anti American, you are a ***, anti-Christian Satanist hell bent on destroying America.

The Leave it to Beaver, Father knows Best white middle class mindset cannot cope with the 2000's. There were no black people of substance in those days when America was a superpower, foreigners were figures of fun because of their accents, good white American folk had holidays in Palm Beach and Hawaii or Disneyland.

They feel threatened, so must lash out at those with a progressive view as they cannot accept a world that has moved on from a US hegemony to a post 1950's - 60's world . They want the world to go back to a Black & White GE TV, manufactured in the good 'Ol USA, drive a black Buick, gingham tablecloth, Bobby sox and Billy Graham. So they fight back by demonising, making up stories, vilify their perceived enemies, lie, exaggerate, anything but to accept reality.

Just as Britain failed to accept it was no longer Great Britain, just as every other world power lived out its existence in denial, the USA is in denial now. What we are witnessing is the decay of a world power, unable to accept its own reduced place in this world.
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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by noosard » February 14, 2021, 8:06 am

While Scotland is part of the Union it will remain Great Britain
What you are talking about is the British empire

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by Whistler » February 14, 2021, 8:48 am

Hopefully that will not be too long before Scotland gains full independence, I am looking forward to owning a Scottish passport. The word 'Great' can be an adjective, my intention.
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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by noosard » February 14, 2021, 9:37 am

147560980_698229937519217_1217400615611414768_n.jpg

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by noosard » February 14, 2021, 9:41 am

150127331_3824568950899696_6391871705293115864_n.jpg

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by glalt » February 14, 2021, 10:45 am

Like it or not, Canadian crude oil is going to reach the market. Via pipeline is the cheapest and safest way but if not via pipeline, by rail or road, or in the case of the California refineries by sea. Canada can and will build pipeline capacity from the oil fields to the sea. The Chinese will be more than happy to buy the cheaper Canadian crude oil. People refuse to accept that it's all about money.

The Canadians have the added advantage that there are 48,000 tons of already manufactured pipe available, likely at bargain prices. Not to mention that the existing super tankers will be eager to get that business.

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by Kenr6583 » February 14, 2021, 11:20 am

glalt wrote:
February 14, 2021, 10:45 am
Like it or not, Canadian crude oil is going to reach the market. Via pipeline is the cheapest and safest way but if not via pipeline, by rail or road, or in the case of the California refineries by sea. Canada can and will build pipeline capacity from the oil fields to the sea. The Chinese will be more than happy to buy the cheaper Canadian crude oil. People refuse to accept that it's all about money.

The Canadians have the added advantage that there are 48,000 tons of already manufactured pipe available, likely at bargain prices. Not to mention that the existing super tankers will be eager to get that business.
Where in the world you get Canadian crude oil is cheaper?

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by Whistler » February 14, 2021, 11:37 am

Ken

If Alberta was a country, it would be the 5th largest oil producer in the world. The oil sands pretty much produce the dirtiest oil in the world, but with the massive reserves in that province, no government is going to stop that awful operation. What may stop it is the drop in oil demand, cheaper oil from other sources, for years to come however glalt is right, where it gets sold is another matter. The current administration however is against the pipeline, it is dubious if it was economically viable. Let the Canucks sell it to North Korea or India, the USA has plenty of other cleaner sources.
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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by tamada » February 14, 2021, 12:06 pm

glalt wrote:
February 14, 2021, 10:45 am
Like it or not, Canadian crude oil is going to reach the market. Via pipeline is the cheapest and safest way but if not via pipeline, by rail or road, or in the case of the California refineries by sea. Canada can and will build pipeline capacity from the oil fields to the sea. The Chinese will be more than happy to buy the cheaper Canadian crude oil. People refuse to accept that it's all about money.

The Canadians have the added advantage that there are 48,000 tons of already manufactured pipe available, likely at bargain prices. Not to mention that the existing super tankers will be eager to get that business.
Now you make it sound like there's a conspiracy to stifle the environmentally corrosive Canadian tar sands oil production, a conspiracy that Trump was eager to fight? That flies in the face of Trump's America First agenda, no? His relationship with Trudeau was tetchy at best but this pipeline would have made them best buddies?

The Canadians are free to sell their cheap heavy oil directly to the Chinese and not involve US refineries or US pipelines. The Chinese are free to spend the money saved on buying the Canadian's cheap heavy oil on refining it and re-exporting what they don't need.

As for the 48,000 tons of unused (empty) pipeline, if you read the article I linked earlier, the pipeline would probably still be empty if it was in the ground and completed in a couple of years from now. Until there's an increased global demand for oil, it's better to keep it stacked for now, no?

With upwards of 90% of the world's oil currently in storage and a whole lot of that 'temporarily' stored on tankers anchored offshore and unable to discharge, good luck to the Chinese or the Canadians on finding any.

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by tamada » February 14, 2021, 12:13 pm

Kenr6583 wrote:
February 14, 2021, 11:20 am
glalt wrote:
February 14, 2021, 10:45 am
Like it or not, Canadian crude oil is going to reach the market. Via pipeline is the cheapest and safest way but if not via pipeline, by rail or road, or in the case of the California refineries by sea. Canada can and will build pipeline capacity from the oil fields to the sea. The Chinese will be more than happy to buy the cheaper Canadian crude oil. People refuse to accept that it's all about money.

The Canadians have the added advantage that there are 48,000 tons of already manufactured pipe available, likely at bargain prices. Not to mention that the existing super tankers will be eager to get that business.
Where in the world you get Canadian crude oil is cheaper?
Canadian crude is roughly ten to twenty bucks per bbl cheaper because it needs a lot of work to make it into usable oil.
oil prices.jpg
https://oilprice.com/oil-price-charts/257

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by Kenr6583 » February 14, 2021, 12:15 pm

I stand corrected. I had read Canada, along with the United States, was some of the most expensive oil.

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by glalt » February 14, 2021, 9:54 pm

Many of the existing refineries were designed to process heavy crude and cannot even process light sweet crude without being mixed with heavy crude. Canadian oil is no different than much of the crude oil from Venezuela and Mexico. The fake news stating that Canadian is much dirtier is simply a lie.

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by tamada » February 14, 2021, 10:27 pm

^ They are NOT the same. It's the extraction of Canadian heavy crude from near-surface tar sands that is much more complex, labor intensive and environmentally damaging than drilling into a traditional, sub-surface oil reservoir. That's why it needs a whole raft of extra environmental controls than sinking a well in Venezuela or West Texas for that matter. It's cheap because you don't have to go looking for it hidden underground.

"Tar sands oil — even the name sounds bad. And it is bad. In fact, oil from tar sands is one of the most destructive, carbon-intensive and toxic fuels on the planet. Producing it releases three times as much greenhouse gas pollution as conventional crude oil does."

https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/cam ... index.html

"THE SCALE OF Alberta’s oil sands operations, the world's largest industrial project, is hard to grasp. Especially north of Fort McMurray, where the boreal forest has been razed and bitumen is mined from the ground in immense open pits, the blot on the landscape is incomparable."

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/envi ... ight-back/

If America wanted a cheap, local supply of heavy crude to make their ancient refineries run more cost-efficiently, they need look no further than across the GoM to Cuba.

Oh, wait...

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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by sometimewoodworker » February 15, 2021, 7:34 am

glalt wrote:
February 14, 2021, 9:54 pm
Many of the existing refineries were designed to process heavy crude and cannot even process light sweet crude without being mixed with heavy crude. Canadian oil is no different than much of the crude oil from Venezuela and Mexico. The fake news stating that Canadian is much dirtier is simply a lie.
It looks as if your information is wrong. The environment impact is appalling and look at the scale in the bottom right.
5B48985A-64E6-441C-A876-F212A26ECBDF.jpeg
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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by FrazeeDK » February 15, 2021, 7:49 am

but Galt was referring to the end product "heavy oil" not the strip mining for tar sands to produce that end product. If it is such an environmental issue you would think that the Canadian PM Trudeau being the progressive that he is, would have found some way to ban it completely.. Oh wait.. money talks, "Crude oil is one of Canada’s top five highest valued exports. 1, 2 Between 2013 and 2018, the value of crude oil exports ranged from 11% to 20% of Canada’s total exported goods. Despite western Canada experiencing lower oil prices in 2018, the value of exported crude oil was $86.7 billion, or 16% of Canada’s $538.1 billion in exported goods." About 80% of that exported crude is the heavy tar sands oil.
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Re: Will Trump concede?

Post by Doodoo » February 15, 2021, 8:30 am

Would like to know how many of the contributors on this subject have actually worked up in Ft McMurray? The companies up there have a reforestation program wher they reclaom mine areas and also replant millions of tress
Sometimewood
You said that the enviromental ompact is appaling as compared to what, trash that we pollute our seas with, open pit mining in South Africa and South America, the dumps we have at the sides of roadways. I certainly would like to know

Tamada You said the process to extract the oil from teh Oilsands "is much more complex, labor intensive and environmentally damaging than drilling into a traditional" Again What is Comples regarding the process? What is Enviromentally damaging?"

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