EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

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Galee
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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by Galee » May 20, 2016, 9:43 am

can123 wrote:I am still living in the UK. I believe that those who live in the South East of England will vote heavily in favour of remaining. I think that the rest of the country will vote to leave. So, it will be a "No" and the UK will leave.
Apart from London, the South East is predominately "OUT". It's the other end of the country, Scotland, that are pro EU.

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... Z1Gw_uEnCl



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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by Drunk Monkey » May 20, 2016, 10:27 am

mally wrote:Why do about 75% of the people I talk to say they'll vote OUT (me included), but 95% say they think we'll stay IN ? :-k

Seems nobody thinks it's going to be a fair vote ! [-X
Because Cameron will possibly cook the count and or use scare tactics to in fact anything to get a remain vote , he has already enrolled Obama , and Brit security bosses to put pressure on voters , not that it will effect me greatly , im an OUT man but will be a very close run thing... and a North / South divide POSSIBLY ??
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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by rick » May 20, 2016, 12:29 pm

Those under 30 will predominately vote to stay in. Not sure what the dole bludgers will do, maybe out as they think their benefits will be safer. Students with any brains will vote in as they can go to many European Universities for zero fees.

A number of companies WILL pull out of UK if it votes out. As for new jobs, competing on a free world market with employees on 10 dollars a day will ensure unemployment up and wages down.

Finally, exit will take 10 years - 10 years of limbo, low investment, low growth (if any). At least house prices will fall if lots of the migrants leave!

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by ronan01 » May 20, 2016, 2:59 pm

According to Cameron leaving the EU will lead to WW3 ..... and WW4 .... and WW5, not to mention plague and pestilence, followed by much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Just as well Cameron never exaggerates, imagine the panic if he did.

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by tinpeeba » May 23, 2016, 4:01 am

@ Adhoc

There has been so much scaremongering, dirty tactics and obfuscation from both sides of the IN/OUT debate that it is very difficult to get to the truth of the matter. So in the end maybe it is best to just vote in line with our own personal inclinations and instinctive feelings about it. I don't seek to persuade anybody to vote one way or the other.

However, your response to my post has prompted me to look more closely into the reasons for leaving the EU and I accept that some of the points you made are valid. I do though have concerns, shown below, about some of your post and despite the many faults of the EU I still feel that on balance we should remain a member of it.

Jobs
Wasn't there a trade deficit in the 60s before the UK joined the "common market" as it was then called? Maybe the deficit would get worse after Brexit, who knows?. Importing goods and services from the EU is not compulsory, the UK doesn't have to trade with other EU countries just because it is also a member. The UK has a huge trade and balance of payments problem, possibly due to lack of government planning/industrial strategy/poor private sector investment and planning but leaving the EU wouldn't change that.

Under the trade agreements between Iceland and the EU, Iceland is legally bound to implement into its own law all EU directives about the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital.
Likewise, Norway has full access to the single market but it had to agree to full free movement of labour. In relation to population, Norway has more EU migrants working there than does the UK. Norway pays into the EU budget, per head, almost as much as the UK pays in. Norway and Iceland have to implement EU regulations. However, they do not have a say in what those EU regulations are because they are not in the EU. As a spokesperson for the Norwegian Conservative Party succinctly put it "If you want to run the EU, stay in the EU. If you want to be run by the EU, feel free to join us in the EEA.".

Switzerland has about 120 bilateral agreements with the EU. Negotiations took several years to complete – more than the two years which the UK would have to renegotiate its relationship with the EU, according to Article 50. Given the complexity of the Swiss bilateral agreements, it isn’t clear that EU member states would be willing to replicate this structure with another country. Switzerland has the same problem as EU countries: a considerable loss of sovereignty. However, the cause is not Brussels, but globalization. Quitting the EU is therefore not a remedy.

Work /study /travel
As an EU citizen, I need a visa to travel to most countries outside of the EU- some are awarded on arrival, some are applied for when arranging travel and some are a nightmare to get. If we leave the EU then travel to some member states could also become costly and difficult.

Peace and Democracy
Before the EU, Europe was a network of alliances, more often broken alliances, which led to protracted wars, e.g the Thirty Years War, the Franco-German Wars, WWI, WWII. Most of these wars were fought to prevent any one European nation from rising to hegemony. Economic integration, as much as Nato, has given us long lasting peace.

It is correct that the commissioners aren't elected - they are appointed/annointed by their respective head of state (one commissioner per country) much like cabinet ministers are appointed by the Prime Minister. The commissioners are the only completely appointed body in the EU - all 28 of them - compared to that, the House of Lords is the second largest completely unelected legislative chamber on earth; second only to the Peoples' Republic of China's rubber-stamp assembly.

Research funding
The UK gets much more out of the EU funded research than it contributes but it's not just about the money. EU research policy and funding discourages a fragmented approach and provides the critical mass necessary to make rapid technological progress. EU membership greatly facilitates cooperation between UK researchers and European partners. UK universities have strongly argued that leaving the EU would cut them off from both valuable funding and established research networks.

Influence in the world
In the not too distant future it will be the United States, China, Russia, India and the European Union exerting global influence on the future of our planet, whether it is in regard to trade, energy, climate change or macro-economic policy. Neither Germany, Britain nor France can, as separate individual states, expect to have comparable influence when it comes to global negotiations on these matters.

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by caducus » May 23, 2016, 11:07 pm

I am a refugee. I ran screaming from the land of my birth when Margaret Thatcher became leader of the Conservative Party and have lived and worked abroad ever since. Consequently I no longer have a vote. If I still had a vote I would vote to leave the EU... with just one condition. This condition is that either Nigel Farage, Michael Gove or Boris Johnson can prove to me that it is possible to detach the United Kingdom from Europe and move it to somewhere in the South Pacific, and that they are committed to doing this. If they are unable to furnish incontrovertible proof I think it would be better for Britain to remain as part of Europe and to maintain our geographical, historical, cultural and political ties.

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by magpie73 » May 24, 2016, 3:40 am

out out out I say and take back our country you just don't see masses of brit's going to work in the Netherlands,spain,france,germany,poland and other countries in mainland Europe. just down the road from me in Teesside there's a power station getting built by the polish you just don't see that happening in the Poland or anywhere else in mainland Europe they make sure they employ native talent first before employing foreigners ---- the eu

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by rick » May 24, 2016, 8:25 pm

Tinpeeba -

An excellent, reasoned post. Unlike most in this thread .......

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by ronan01 » May 24, 2016, 9:35 pm

Not good form to called most people unreasonable because they express their opinion and stand by what they believe.

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by magpie73 » May 25, 2016, 2:06 am

so what's your opinion then rick as the thread says in or out

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by rick » May 26, 2016, 6:01 pm

I am for staying in. I think the complexities of Brexit are under estimated; it would take years (maybe 8 years or more) to unravel 40 years of EU related legislation and negotiate exit. During this period of uncertainty investment will be low until clarity about the result exists - there will be a decline in GDP growth during this period, probably a recession. The impact on the value of my pension (which is UK based) is a concern as i have retired in Thailand. I expect these negative effects to last at least 10 years.

To assume that everything will be 'better' if we leave is a fallacy. All our problems will not disappear just by leaving the EU - we just have a new set. In 20 years MAYBE the UK will be better off - but i think no more than 50-50 chance. And the next 10 years are what concerns me the most.

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by skinner » May 27, 2016, 7:13 am

tinpeeba wrote:@ Adhoc

There has been so much scaremongering, dirty tactics and obfuscation from both sides of the IN/OUT debate that it is very difficult to get to the truth of the matter. So in the end maybe it is best to just vote in line with our own personal inclinations and instinctive feelings about it. I don't seek to persuade anybody to vote one way or the other.

However, your response to my post has prompted me to look more closely into the reasons for leaving the EU and I accept that some of the points you made are valid. I do though have concerns, shown below, about some of your post and despite the many faults of the EU I still feel that on balance we should remain a member of it.

Jobs
Wasn't there a trade deficit in the 60s before the UK joined the "common market" as it was then called? Maybe the deficit would get worse after Brexit, who knows?. Importing goods and services from the EU is not compulsory, the UK doesn't have to trade with other EU countries just because it is also a member. The UK has a huge trade and balance of payments problem, possibly due to lack of government planning/industrial strategy/poor private sector investment and planning but leaving the EU wouldn't change that.

Under the trade agreements between Iceland and the EU, Iceland is legally bound to implement into its own law all EU directives about the free movement of goods, persons, services and capital.
Likewise, Norway has full access to the single market but it had to agree to full free movement of labour. In relation to population, Norway has more EU migrants working there than does the UK. Norway pays into the EU budget, per head, almost as much as the UK pays in. Norway and Iceland have to implement EU regulations. However, they do not have a say in what those EU regulations are because they are not in the EU. As a spokesperson for the Norwegian Conservative Party succinctly put it "If you want to run the EU, stay in the EU. If you want to be run by the EU, feel free to join us in the EEA.".

Switzerland has about 120 bilateral agreements with the EU. Negotiations took several years to complete – more than the two years which the UK would have to renegotiate its relationship with the EU, according to Article 50. Given the complexity of the Swiss bilateral agreements, it isn’t clear that EU member states would be willing to replicate this structure with another country. Switzerland has the same problem as EU countries: a considerable loss of sovereignty. However, the cause is not Brussels, but globalization. Quitting the EU is therefore not a remedy.

Work /study /travel
As an EU citizen, I need a visa to travel to most countries outside of the EU- some are awarded on arrival, some are applied for when arranging travel and some are a nightmare to get. If we leave the EU then travel to some member states could also become costly and difficult.

Peace and Democracy
Before the EU, Europe was a network of alliances, more often broken alliances, which led to protracted wars, e.g the Thirty Years War, the Franco-German Wars, WWI, WWII. Most of these wars were fought to prevent any one European nation from rising to hegemony. Economic integration, as much as Nato, has given us long lasting peace.

It is correct that the commissioners aren't elected - they are appointed/annointed by their respective head of state (one commissioner per country) much like cabinet ministers are appointed by the Prime Minister. The commissioners are the only completely appointed body in the EU - all 28 of them - compared to that, the House of Lords is the second largest completely unelected legislative chamber on earth; second only to the Peoples' Republic of China's rubber-stamp assembly.

Research funding
The UK gets much more out of the EU funded research than it contributes but it's not just about the money. EU research policy and funding discourages a fragmented approach and provides the critical mass necessary to make rapid technological progress. EU membership greatly facilitates cooperation between UK researchers and European partners. UK universities have strongly argued that leaving the EU would cut them off from both valuable funding and established research networks.

Influence in the world
In the not too distant future it will be the United States, China, Russia, India and the European Union exerting global influence on the future of our planet, whether it is in regard to trade, energy, climate change or macro-economic policy. Neither Germany, Britain nor France can, as separate individual states, expect to have comparable influence when it comes to global negotiations on these matters.

With regard to Iceland , they now have, and have had for almost 8 years, capital controls in place, so there is no free movement of capital. Accepting free movement of labour suits them as they have low unemployment and rely on foreign labour. Many Eu regulations are used as a minimum standard there, their own regulations often being stricter.
They do however control their own fisheries, very successfully, and sustainably. ( does Britain ) They continue to allow limited and sustainable whaling , as is their tradition, without Brussels telling them they can not. Farming there is a very difficult business, but farmers are protected against cheap imported food with tariffs. No free movement of goods there.
If the UK leaves the EU, it would complicate my life, but I would not vote to stay because it benefits me personally.
I would vote OUT, because I believe it is better for Britains future, and gives her back her sovereignty.

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by papafarang » May 27, 2016, 2:51 pm

I think I go with skinner on this, I like being british, I don't want to be European. as for all the scare mongering ,remember the government dragging us into the ERM, they said that it would be good for Britain...closely followed by black Wednesday. in truth no one knows what could happen , I could be a disaster or we could end up as bad off as the swiss
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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by Galee » May 27, 2016, 4:26 pm

Do you put your country first or do you put yourself first?

Hundreds of thousands of British men and women have lost their lives in the past putting their country first. Don't waste their legacy just because it puts a few extra baht in your pocket each month.

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by GT93 » May 27, 2016, 4:42 pm

Personally if I was British and voting I'd give a close to zero rating to deceased Britons and a high weighting to the interests of young Britons.

I suspect the EU is going to be such a basket case in the next ten to twenty years that this issue will arise more than once again. I expect this time the vote will be EU in but next time under a Tory PM it will be EU out. Well, that's my crystal ball. We each have a different one. I'm pretty skeptical of the official bed wetting crystal ball. That crystal ball hasn't got much right recently?

I understood the traditional outside in picture of the EU was that it was a fortress not run in the interests of consumers. In other words Britons are being ripped off. The original poster's excellent video touched on this. And the UK just doesn't seem to fit within the EU. It's just too different.

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by skinner » May 27, 2016, 5:46 pm

Galee wrote:Do you put your country first or do you put yourself first?

Hundreds of thousands of British men and women have lost their lives in the past putting their country first. Don't waste their legacy just because it puts a few extra baht in your pocket each month.

Unfortunately I think many people in the UK and some on this forum are only interested in whats best for themselves.

Sad really.

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by rick » May 28, 2016, 10:01 pm

Actually I think the majority of British people are better off in the EU. The 1.26 million who live in other EU countries obviously prefer it. And don't forget, many of our ancestors were from Europe - Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, French during the many periods of Anglo-french wars, the Dutch (one of our largest source of migrants in pre-colonial days), Huguenots (protestant refugees) Germans during the 30 years war or as mercenaries fighting for the crown, many eastern Europeans in the 19th century escaping war, racism and oppressive regimes, and finally many refugees during the 20th century wars.

Those under 30 are generally pro-European. They are the future don't deny them. The old farts who only remember the war and the British Empire - sorry, both are history .....

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Post by papafarang » May 28, 2016, 10:20 pm

oh no rick , you just popped my balloon , no more empire :shock: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Post by skinner » May 29, 2016, 1:41 am

rick wrote:Actually I think the majority of British people are better off in the EU. The 1.26 million who live in other EU countries obviously prefer it. And don't forget, many of our ancestors were from Europe - Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Normans, French during the many periods of Anglo-french wars, the Dutch (one of our largest source of migrants in pre-colonial days), Huguenots (protestant refugees) Germans during the 30 years war or as mercenaries fighting for the crown, many eastern Europeans in the 19th century escaping war, racism and oppressive regimes, and finally many refugees during the 20th century wars.

Those under 30 are generally pro-European. They are the future don't deny them. The old farts who only remember the war and the British Empire - sorry, both are history .....
Cant imagine that there are many who remember the war, Even in Udon !!
It isn't all about immigration, what about democratic government. The ability of the UK to decide its own laws.
Economically I think the EU is a disaster, just look at Norway, Iceland and Switzerland, all doing ok without loosing their sovereignty.

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EU in or out? Brexit: The Movie

Post by ronan01 » May 29, 2016, 1:32 pm

Project Fear OR Project Total Hysteria?

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05 ... -will-end/

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