Cremation of a Monk

valentine · Post by **valentine** » May 13, 2006, 12:02 pm

Paul wrote:
valentine wrote:[
I really don't want to go any deeper with you Paul, enjoy the power trip you are on as a moderator
I am accountable for my actions - and anything I have done as a moderator (suprisingly little actually) is known about by admin.

I see you have had a problem with just about every moderator and admin staff on this forum - and appear to think they are on a 'power trip' however - just like policemen, they are always expected to be there when you need them - whatever you think of them.

To get back on topic - and the funeral,

?

Surely this way off topic and should be moderated?

Post by **Paul** » May 13, 2006, 12:12 pm

Somebody complained to me before that when quoting someone - I should have the courtesy to quote them in full.

May I receive a reply to my enquiry which followed in the post ?
(the bit YOU EDITED OUT from my quote).

Wow almost like a moderator huh ?

Enjoy the power trip!

valentine · Post by **valentine** » May 13, 2006, 12:14 pm

[quote="Bangsean_girl"]In my opinion as I am one of the Thai, and I would not like it if I see a crowd of farang taking photos in the funeral and make it like a tourist attraction place to turn it all around how would you farang ppl feel if I go to the funeral in ur country and make it like tourist place? -even for the Thai cuture it's not usual to bring the camera to the funeral except u was paid to make it from the relative of the dead body . I dont know about ur cuture tho- maybe in farang cuture ur alowed to do that? Most of the thai funeral we will have a letter to invite all the people we know to the funeral and I

valentine · Post by **valentine** » May 13, 2006, 12:53 pm

Paul you are really determined to prolong this , aren't you? I hope my previous post justifies my personal involvement. As for your questions as to what makes a monk senior or very respected. I don't feel I am best qualified to answer, but if your curiosity is genuine then this morning when I went to give alms there were over 100 monks there. I am sure any one of them would be delighted to explain the teachings of Lord Buddha and why one should be more reverred than another.
Now can we put this to bed as what started out for me as a bridge building exercise between members of this forum and the local community has turned into an acrimonous debate with threats and innuendos all round. Not a bit Buddhist like.Val

Post by **Dakoda** » May 13, 2006, 4:41 pm

Hmm an interesting subject at last

Let me see if I have this straight now. The first post said in part:

From Udon come out on the Loei road, ................................
Hope to see many of you there. This is the Thailand the tourist rarely sees.

Kinda sounds like anyone in the the world wide web is invited

then after objections, we get in part:

I was given 10 invitations to share with my son in law friends
http://upload3.postimage.org/233149/photo_hosting.html
by the village headman

So, now its limited to 10 son in law friends and they need an invite

Kinda sounds like they also need to be related, like part of the extended family

Hmm, seems like Paul has a point, maybe you should have just emailed or PM 10 son in law friends instead of posting it on the world wide web like the next big tourist attraction

Just a thought

valentine · Post by **valentine** » May 13, 2006, 5:44 pm

There will be no further comment from me on this subject. It has now degenerated into nit picking and that certainly is not my scene

Post by **farang** » May 13, 2006, 5:48 pm

valentine wrote:There will be no further comment from me on this subject. It has now degenerated into nit picking and that certainly is not my scene

WHAT!!!????????...your the biggest nit picker on the forum!!!

Post by **Dakoda** » May 13, 2006, 6:20 pm

isn't life strange. While most of us just pass when no comment is needed!

Some just can't resist posting

There will be no further comment from me

yes, life is strange

Post by **Paul** » May 13, 2006, 8:01 pm

valentine wrote:This is an opportunity for the camera buffs amongst us to film a rarely seen festival in a enviroment that is a very traditional agriculture village.

Hope to see many of you there. This is the Thailand the tourist rarely sees.

Its a funeral for goodness sake ! Why would tourists WANT to see it ????

Better go see the Ban Fai festival or any of the other multitude of events that typical 'very traditional agriculture villages' have.

Can you imagine at your own funeral - a bunch of foreigners turn up who you have no idea who they are and see it as an 'opportunity for the camera buffs' ???

Respect where respect is due but I cannot grasp the notion of going to someones funeral who you have no idea who they are, purely for the entertainment value.
If thats your thing - then please, go enjoy and - be entertained.

Post by **charley** » May 14, 2006, 1:00 am

I have been a member of this forum for only a short while, and have only been to Udon and surrounds twice.

For the last 23 years have been travelling, & at times working in, SEA.

At the risk of offending some of you, may I respectfully ask that you PM each other about this matter - posting for all the world to see - may possibly detract from the otherwise wonderful forum that you all work so well on...promoting the great people in Udon /Isaan & the place that most of you reside in or visit often?

Please take a clear moment and consider:

Apx 65 000 000 population of Thailand

Apx 537 000 000 population of ASEAN

Apx 6 525 500 000 population of the World

Our Galaxy the Milky Way has apx 200 *BILLION* stars

The nearest large Galaxy is FOUR times as massive

Our Galaxy is only ONE of BILLIONS of Galaxies hurtling through intergalactic space at this present moment.

Up to you to interpret it.

If anyone wants to slag me or ban me, so be it!

But in any case I'll still be coming back to Udon/ Nong Khai soon. For looong time!!

Peace.

Post by **Alagrl** » May 16, 2006, 9:55 pm

I'm a bit late on this topic (have been disconnected from the Web for about a week) and am needing some clarification.

It was my understanding that a Buddhist cremation may not necessarily take place at the time of death, i.e., that the remains could be buried for a period of time prior to a cremation ceremony. If this is the case, the celebratory nature of the cremation is quite understandable. Am I correct on this, or are there multiple customs regarding death and burial?

A comment here on funeral ceremonies, photography, and "tourism" --

There is a distinctly different nature to funerals of highly regarded, public personages; the public at large is expected to participate in a level of formal mourning. In Western cultures, it is not unusual at all to see crowds of people lining the funeral route, and many if not most of these people would have cameras to capture the event -- think of the funerals of royalty and of presidents -- in addition to mass media filming.

For those falangs who live in and love the Thai culture, it can be difficult to discern where the legitimate cultural interest stops and the "tourism" line begins. A respectful inquiry as to the level of participation should prevent embarassment.

Post by **Alagrl** » May 16, 2006, 10:20 pm

I'm a bit late on this topic (have been disconnected from the Web for about a week) and am needing some clarification.

It was my understanding that a Buddhist cremation may not necessarily take place at the time of death, i.e., that the remains could be buried for a period of time prior to a cremation ceremony. If this is the case, the celebratory nature of the cremation is quite understandable. Am I correct on this, or are there multiple customs regarding death and burial?

A comment here on funeral ceremonies, photography, and "tourism" --

There is a distinctly different nature to funerals of highly regarded, public personages; the public at large is expected to participate in a level of formal mourning. In Western cultures, it is not unusual at all to see crowds of people lining the funeral route, and many if not most of these people would have cameras to capture the event -- think of the funerals of royalty and of presidents -- in addition to mass media filming.

For those falangs who live in and love the Thai culture, it can be difficult to discern where the legitimate cultural interest stops and the "tourism" line begins. A respectful inquiry as to the level of participation should prevent embarassment.

Post by **hxjohn** » May 17, 2006, 1:10 am

I have been to a similar two day burning of a senior monk but its my wife

valentine · Post by **valentine** » May 17, 2006, 6:55 am

Gulf Coast Usa. Your reading of the situation is perfectly correct. The Monk in question had been dead for some time and had "Lain in state" as we would call it in the west. I referred to it as a cremation ceremony not a funeral but obviously not everyone knew the difference.As for making sure we would be welcome. His son in law ie;married to the monks daughter, had personally delivered the invitations to my wife, who was a friend of he and his wife, actually asked me , as a farang, to attend and bring some friends if I could. The words used were"We would regard it as a great honour to dad if you could. I think most of this would have been clear from the wording of the invitation and my susequent replies to objectors.As for the bring your cameras. I made it abundantly clear we were asked to and why.
As it happened I was the only farang there and was given a prominent seat and invited to take part in details of the ceremony. I will say a very enjoyable day which greatly increased my knowledge of Thai culture and made me many more friends amongst the local community.
I know the word "Enjoyable" will be seized upon for further comment, so I ask in advance. Doesn't a day when you get to pay tribute to a persons life and make many new friends,qualify as enjoyable?
I have deliberately refrained from posting the photos not wishing to inflame the already obviously inflamed.

Post by **Alagrl** » May 17, 2006, 8:59 pm

Thanks for the clarification, Valentine. My husband and I were just this past weekend discussing the Buddhist funeral customs, since his children will at some point be involved for their Thai grandmother.

When we were in Udon last November, my husband's ex-wife explained to me the "monuments" or "tombstones" that are placed at the temples. What are they called, and are they placed at the time of the cremation? Are ashes interred underneath the markers?

Post by **Paul** » May 17, 2006, 10:10 pm

valentine wrote:.As for the bring your cameras. I made it abundantly clear we were asked to and why.
.

Abundance: n great, plenty -abun'dant a - plentiful
(Collins English dictionary)

valentine wrote: This is an opportunity for the camera buffs amongst us to film a rarely seen festival in a enviroment that is a very traditional agriculture village.

Clear as mud !
Abundantly clear ? where? - ah yes , dozens of posts later - ok.

Perhaps if the original post had been worded differently - reactions may have been different too.
i.e. "I have been given 10 written invitations to distribute to anyone wishing to attend and have also been informed that they wish to make a museum to his memory at a later date and photographs of his cremation would be central to that, thefore anyone who can take a reasonable picture would be welcome and most useful too".

This way it is not a 'free for all' circus - inviting anyone who happens to be on the internet and gives a real reason to take some photographs without it sounding like the tourist attraction which it did.

Anyway I am pleased you enjoyed your day - yes really, and that you made some new friends too.

valentine · Post by **valentine** » May 18, 2006, 7:10 am

gulfcoastUSA wrote:Thanks for the clarification, Valentine. My husband and I were just this past weekend discussing the Buddhist funeral customs, since his children will at some point be involved for their Thai grandmother.

When we were in Udon last November, my husband's ex-wife explained to me the "monuments" or "tombstones" that are placed at the temples. What are they called, and are they placed at the time of the cremation? Are ashes interred underneath the markers?

When a senior monk is cremated,depending on the wealth of the temple or its ability to raise funds it is becoming the norm to create a museum to his life and work. In this case the ashes are placed in a brass urn and put in the display case. certain bones from the body when removed from the ash can display the status of the monk in as much they remain a brilliant white which Thais believe is an indication of his "holiness"These are normally placed on open display with his normal monks chattels, gown, alms bowl etc.In a temple not far from where I live, the charred remains contained gem stones which is a sign of great holiness, these are on display in his museum and have been honoured by members of the Royal family viewing them.
Back to your question about the minature Chedi like structures. These are called Tards. They do indeed contain the remains, normally bones, of the deceased whose portait and name is displayed on the outside. The reason for the bones is that here in Thailand the cremation is generally by open wood fuelled fires which don't generate the heat as do the gas ones used in the west. It is a part of the overall ceremony for the relatives to rake through the ashes to retrieve them and place them in the tard.
These Tards can be of varying decor and the purchase cost reflects this so the less wealthy families have an alternative. In many village temples the wall surrounding has little niches where the ashes/bones can be placed in an urn, then sealed and a plaque with photo and details of the deceased put on the outside.In more sedate times it was also normal to interr the valuables of the deceased in there as well, but with the decrease in respect levels experienced here as everywhere, they became targets for plunderers so that custom has been abandoned and instead replaced by the custom of melting all metals down and casting an image of the Buddha to be placed in the main temple.
The temple I referred to containing the precious stones is Tangong Phen located in a village of the same name on the road from Udon to Nong Bua Lamphoo.

Post by **lee** » May 18, 2006, 10:41 am

valentine wrote:The temple I referred to containing the precious stones is Tangong Phen located in a village of the same name on the road from Udon to Nong Bua Lamphoo.

That's certainly a very interesting temple to visit.

Here are some photos of the temple. The second photo is a wax figure of Luang Poo Khao and the third is of precious stones that were apparently discovered amongst the ashes of this revered monk.

valentine · Post by **valentine** » May 18, 2006, 10:56 am

Thank you Lee. For some reason when I tried uploading similar shots mine kept timing out so greatful to see yours. To avoid confusion the larger black objects directly on the red cloth are bone remnants, the gems are in the chalice to the rear of the photo. They are mainly sapphires with some amethysts amongst them.