Since, as usual during Songkran, I am sitting at home, comfortable, dry, and just a little bored, decided I might as well have a bit of fun stirring up all you persons out there who might possibly be taking themselves just a mite too seriously but who, of course will be aware of their luck in having superior intellects, knowledge,experience, moral principles and origins, to those of less blessed persons, of humble origins, such as myself. So, here goes:
fdimike wrote:
Bandung
So what you're saying is that when you get a drivers license or some other non-descript government supplied document in your home country (????????????????????????0
Question: in which of Bandungs posts did he write. 'in your(his) own country"
Brian. Would appreciate your (rather than your compatriot's irrelevant ), response to my question regarding your experiences/interactions with Traffic Police?
fdmike lectures Bandung: You're just wasting your money for no reason. It also makes it more difficult for other foreigners living here because they think they have to pay under the table for service.
To Bandung: How dare you decide how you want to spend your money! Did YOU know or consider you are wasting YOUR money FOR NO GOOD REASON? I hope that you are feeling suitably contrite, and will change the error of your ways, now that you have received valuable and factual advice of the power your selfish actions exert over all those 'other foreigners' out there.
Welsh wizard wrote:As for corruption in all societies i think you have to use your head and think before saying that .There probably is but not at such a low level as thailand (..but not at such a low level..).
Interestingly, but very surprising to me considering the origins implied in your name, you appear to be following the same theme as TTT (The Three Compatriots), and to which I have already previously respondedl namely, bribery & Corruption whereby only the rich and powerful benefit is acceptable, but is not when the poorer class get on the bandwagon (i.e. as in Thailand) and get share of the spoils.
fdmike wrote:Your reasoning regarding the "tip box" is so far off base that it's not worth discussing.
If you re-read my post you will see I suggested a POSSIBLE alternative to your compatriots comment that the lady had probable used the money for her personal holiday. However,in view of your categorical assertion that I am 'far off base', you are clearly implying, as yet unsubstantiated, superior knowledge. So please tell us, what happens to this tip money, and what is the soource of your knowledge?????
Udon Thani Immigration Office
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mathusalah80
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Bandung
Sorry this fish ain't biting!! I've already made my points.
Sorry this fish ain't biting!! I've already made my points.
An ex-pat in the Land of Smile
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Brian Davis
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- Location: Phen (Udon Thani Province)
Udon Thani Immigration Office
Yes, yes, I'm coming. Completely off topic, but ..... Actually went out yesterday and my visit did nearly involve the Traffic Police again. Motorbike ran into my front wing. Was driver tipsy? YES Was he driving too fast on a narrow road, without caution/anticipation and e.g.the possibility a kiddie might be in the road throwing water. YES Did his rear brake work? Apparently NOT. Helmet? NO Driving licence, insurance, tax. Seemingly NOT. Did he get a mouthful? YES, he did. Did i calm down and think not worth pursuing the matter? Yes.mathusalah80 wrote:Brian. Would appreciate your (rather than your compatriot's irrelevant ), response to my question regarding your experiences/interactions with Traffic Police?
Also at Morlam. Witnessed boy having beer bottle smashed over his head, policeman firing blanks? in air. Inter-village fighting.
Happy Songkran.
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Brian Davis
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- Posts: 2425
- Joined: January 26, 2008, 8:14 pm
- Location: Phen (Udon Thani Province)
Udon Thani Immigration Office
Sorry to mess up the quotes, but I think you can follow.
Mathusalah80 wrote
“Actually Brian, POSSIBLY it doesn't quite work like that..........”
Well, yes, that’s quite POSSIBLY the system. As I said, I witnessed the Officer going straight to her handbag for change, not to some central cash box. But does it really matter whether she’s pocketing it directly, or it’s going into some big pot to be shared out later? The point is that it’s all unofficial takings and your scenario would confirm that they are ALL at it, which is PROBABLY the case!
Mathusalah80 – “in the unlikely event she was stupid enough to cheat her colleagues.”
Goodness no. ONLY the farangs.
Mathusalah80 –“ Can you name any country anywhere in the world, that is without corruption? How many of the complainants under this thread, I wonder, would be prepared to admit to corruption in their countries of origin, and be as loudly critical as they are of the corruption in this land they have chosen as a better alternative in which to live? “
No, I can’t and, of course, you’re correct. But IMO, in a country that doesn’t have the welfare benefit payments made in our homelands and the need to get money by some means dominates every day life, corruption is more in your face and at grassroots level, as well as in the workings of government, politics, business, industry etc. For example, I’ve witnessed all the serious bitchiness, jealously, lies linked to a small village election (no violence, this time), because somebody’s been able to spread a few more baht about to ensure votes. Forgive my digression here, but the goings-on at Immigration Offices might almost be viewed as ‘tame’ corruption, compared to the ya bah dealer who remains free after the Big Boss ‘sorted’ things with the police, or the thug guilty of a violent assault.
Your point is taken, but there are enough threads on here where posters recognize their homelands are far from perfect too. And some moved because of it. Certainly in my case, corruption didn’t feature in my thoughts about coming here – ‘love’, climate, cost of living and surrounded by pretty faces did. We do, of course, have to be careful of what matters we raise here, but as Immigration is there to deal with us, criticism is surely fair game, else we might as well be robots.
Ricohoc wrote “There is something already in the works attempting to deal with these "extra charges" through the US Embassy in BKK.”
From the above and reading between the lines, there appears to be enough concerned farangs who ARE unwilling to accept/tolerate, for the matter to become officially taken on board.
Mathusalah80 – “the lower income classes get to receive a bite of the cherry”
Again, I see your point, but I’m not sure that within the overall structure of Thai society, that Immigration Officers fall within ‘lower income classes’. There are huge numbers of non-office types such as farmers, labourers, vendors, shopworkers who often pay at Government offices to ‘ease the process’, but I don’t see in a position to get any backhanders themselves.
Mathusalah80 – “ have at some time run foul of the Traffic Police, that you have NEVER gone along with voluntarilyy paying the 'stopping' Officer an unreceipted cash payment, for whatever reason???? “
Oh yes, I’ve had meetings with the Traffic Police. (I rather like the one about ‘you’re in the fast lane’, when I’ve just overtaken a convey of enormous trucks moving at 10 kph!). I’ve only coughed up once in my early days, when very wet behind the ears, partly influenced by the two women, not my wife!, with me at the time and trying to finish a long journey. I certainly wasn't happy about it. On a fast road, the xxxxxxx’s manually switched a traffic light quickly to red, with absolutely no other traffic in sight and no way I could stop in time. Since then, I argue the toss to the point the Officer is so bored, he goes off for easier pickings.
Mathusalah80 – “If, hand on your heart, you can respond in the affirmative, then you truly are a man of principle, and someone to be sincerely admired”
Yeah, I wish. Nice try at wind up. (But I've been called Maria from West Side story as in I'm So Pretty before, when posting my views/experiences. Some guy lost it. I just knew it was unwise to put internet in a bar.) From mistakes made in my life, I’m afraid there’s a place already reserved for me downstairs stoking the furnaces. I’m probably a person that likes i’s dotted and t’s crossed, but can appreciate sensible flexibility exercised, but not when a backhander is expected. I like matters to be very clear and it’s such that annoys me that Immigration can’t get their Act together over several things, particularly when processes and interpretation are different.
Bandung Dero – “Quick service, smiling face and more importantly the fact I'm made to feel welcome on my next visit is worth a lousy $3.30.”
You make me sound like a real mean wotsit. It’s not so much how much any one farang has to pay, rather than the total which can accumulate. As I indicate, just charging for photocopies can with a minimum number of customers can bring in a tidy sum and IF they get many like myself contributing 700 baht, well new cars all round! Actually, I think I’m quite generous with tips in restaurants, petrol stations etc. But I don’t expect to pay in Government/Police offices. There’s a big difference in paying voluntarily for good service rendered and having to pay to ensure one gets it. I have no qualms about paying officially for miscellaneous services rendered at Immigration Offices. Let’s have rates published. And then, if Officers get part of the additional income returned in their salaries or through a performance pay system, good luck to them. That, is surely, what should be happening if all the Thai flag-waving, professed love of the country, following the guidance of those rather important people living in Bangkok, respect for the job/ uniforms, merit-making, Buddhist beliefs etc. is really meant to mean something and not just two-faced and a farce? Oooopps, I’m digressing again.
Is there still a large notice outside Nong Khai Immigration, something like ‘Corruption Stops Here’? I’m perfectly serious on that.
FCBasel1967 – “A job at immigration police is extremely sought after because it is very well paid (for Thai and especially for Isaan standards) and offers a lot of status. Those jobs are usually exclusively distributed among family members of very senior officers in the Thai Military as a reward for their service.”
Well, whoever is getting the jobs, what a sad state of affairs, in that the Officer will be told the salary , but is also calculating how much might be made on the side.
Mathusalah80 wrote
“Actually Brian, POSSIBLY it doesn't quite work like that..........”
Well, yes, that’s quite POSSIBLY the system. As I said, I witnessed the Officer going straight to her handbag for change, not to some central cash box. But does it really matter whether she’s pocketing it directly, or it’s going into some big pot to be shared out later? The point is that it’s all unofficial takings and your scenario would confirm that they are ALL at it, which is PROBABLY the case!
Mathusalah80 – “in the unlikely event she was stupid enough to cheat her colleagues.”
Goodness no. ONLY the farangs.
Mathusalah80 –“ Can you name any country anywhere in the world, that is without corruption? How many of the complainants under this thread, I wonder, would be prepared to admit to corruption in their countries of origin, and be as loudly critical as they are of the corruption in this land they have chosen as a better alternative in which to live? “
No, I can’t and, of course, you’re correct. But IMO, in a country that doesn’t have the welfare benefit payments made in our homelands and the need to get money by some means dominates every day life, corruption is more in your face and at grassroots level, as well as in the workings of government, politics, business, industry etc. For example, I’ve witnessed all the serious bitchiness, jealously, lies linked to a small village election (no violence, this time), because somebody’s been able to spread a few more baht about to ensure votes. Forgive my digression here, but the goings-on at Immigration Offices might almost be viewed as ‘tame’ corruption, compared to the ya bah dealer who remains free after the Big Boss ‘sorted’ things with the police, or the thug guilty of a violent assault.
Your point is taken, but there are enough threads on here where posters recognize their homelands are far from perfect too. And some moved because of it. Certainly in my case, corruption didn’t feature in my thoughts about coming here – ‘love’, climate, cost of living and surrounded by pretty faces did. We do, of course, have to be careful of what matters we raise here, but as Immigration is there to deal with us, criticism is surely fair game, else we might as well be robots.
Ricohoc wrote “There is something already in the works attempting to deal with these "extra charges" through the US Embassy in BKK.”
From the above and reading between the lines, there appears to be enough concerned farangs who ARE unwilling to accept/tolerate, for the matter to become officially taken on board.
Mathusalah80 – “the lower income classes get to receive a bite of the cherry”
Again, I see your point, but I’m not sure that within the overall structure of Thai society, that Immigration Officers fall within ‘lower income classes’. There are huge numbers of non-office types such as farmers, labourers, vendors, shopworkers who often pay at Government offices to ‘ease the process’, but I don’t see in a position to get any backhanders themselves.
Mathusalah80 – “ have at some time run foul of the Traffic Police, that you have NEVER gone along with voluntarilyy paying the 'stopping' Officer an unreceipted cash payment, for whatever reason???? “
Oh yes, I’ve had meetings with the Traffic Police. (I rather like the one about ‘you’re in the fast lane’, when I’ve just overtaken a convey of enormous trucks moving at 10 kph!). I’ve only coughed up once in my early days, when very wet behind the ears, partly influenced by the two women, not my wife!, with me at the time and trying to finish a long journey. I certainly wasn't happy about it. On a fast road, the xxxxxxx’s manually switched a traffic light quickly to red, with absolutely no other traffic in sight and no way I could stop in time. Since then, I argue the toss to the point the Officer is so bored, he goes off for easier pickings.
Mathusalah80 – “If, hand on your heart, you can respond in the affirmative, then you truly are a man of principle, and someone to be sincerely admired”
Yeah, I wish. Nice try at wind up. (But I've been called Maria from West Side story as in I'm So Pretty before, when posting my views/experiences. Some guy lost it. I just knew it was unwise to put internet in a bar.) From mistakes made in my life, I’m afraid there’s a place already reserved for me downstairs stoking the furnaces. I’m probably a person that likes i’s dotted and t’s crossed, but can appreciate sensible flexibility exercised, but not when a backhander is expected. I like matters to be very clear and it’s such that annoys me that Immigration can’t get their Act together over several things, particularly when processes and interpretation are different.
Bandung Dero – “Quick service, smiling face and more importantly the fact I'm made to feel welcome on my next visit is worth a lousy $3.30.”
You make me sound like a real mean wotsit. It’s not so much how much any one farang has to pay, rather than the total which can accumulate. As I indicate, just charging for photocopies can with a minimum number of customers can bring in a tidy sum and IF they get many like myself contributing 700 baht, well new cars all round! Actually, I think I’m quite generous with tips in restaurants, petrol stations etc. But I don’t expect to pay in Government/Police offices. There’s a big difference in paying voluntarily for good service rendered and having to pay to ensure one gets it. I have no qualms about paying officially for miscellaneous services rendered at Immigration Offices. Let’s have rates published. And then, if Officers get part of the additional income returned in their salaries or through a performance pay system, good luck to them. That, is surely, what should be happening if all the Thai flag-waving, professed love of the country, following the guidance of those rather important people living in Bangkok, respect for the job/ uniforms, merit-making, Buddhist beliefs etc. is really meant to mean something and not just two-faced and a farce? Oooopps, I’m digressing again.
Is there still a large notice outside Nong Khai Immigration, something like ‘Corruption Stops Here’? I’m perfectly serious on that.
FCBasel1967 – “A job at immigration police is extremely sought after because it is very well paid (for Thai and especially for Isaan standards) and offers a lot of status. Those jobs are usually exclusively distributed among family members of very senior officers in the Thai Military as a reward for their service.”
Well, whoever is getting the jobs, what a sad state of affairs, in that the Officer will be told the salary , but is also calculating how much might be made on the side.
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Bandung_Dero
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Udon Thani Immigration Office
And I'm not casting. This debate has been done to death, time to move on!fdimike wrote:Bandung
Sorry this fish ain't biting!! I've already made my points.
Sent from my 1977 Apple II using 2 Heinz bake bean cans and piano wire!
Udon Thani Immigration Office
i only can say this , mostly the greedy behavior of all official authorities , the farangs themselves are mostly also the blame of this...
when i was there to extend my visa , i've had an old farang sitting next to us with his let us say it polite much younger wife
he also applied for visa extension based on marriage, and had all the papers nicely prepared....
in between the first set of papers was a blank paper folded witch the immigration officer opened and contained 1.000 baht...witch disappeared quickly in the draw...no need to say his application was more quickly finished than mine...
another example , we where stopped one time for traffic violation , drive to quickly , i did 90 it was allowed 80...
1.000 baht he told us , this was coming out of suwwanaphum on the elevated highway...i did not want to pay 1.000 baht for this and while we where arguing another farang was stopped in front of us and we saw the guy giving his drivers license ( to the same police ) with 500 baht underneath...so this matter was quickly cleared , and maybe thanks to this idiot we also got off with paying only 200 baht...no need to say , i did not get a receipt....
the point is here ..corruption in thailand is so deeply rooted it will never disappear as it is more a way of live here...
learn to live with it...but do not encourage it...as the 2 examples posted above...
i always have the exact amount to pay ...so no complaining about not getting your change , and i have also made a yellow tabien baan , witch i do not show immigration , and i use to renew my drivers license...and also very use full in case something happens to the wife ( dies) before you , will save you a lot hassle with the authorities....
and my thumbs up for brian , whom has had the courage to do what many farang are afraid to do...
complaining against official authorities...let us hope he will get his visa next year , because it is known in thailand even though they know they where wrong , they do not like to loose face here...let's hope he will not see any form off retribution when apply for visa extension next year.... TIT....
when i was there to extend my visa , i've had an old farang sitting next to us with his let us say it polite much younger wife
he also applied for visa extension based on marriage, and had all the papers nicely prepared....
in between the first set of papers was a blank paper folded witch the immigration officer opened and contained 1.000 baht...witch disappeared quickly in the draw...no need to say his application was more quickly finished than mine...
another example , we where stopped one time for traffic violation , drive to quickly , i did 90 it was allowed 80...
1.000 baht he told us , this was coming out of suwwanaphum on the elevated highway...i did not want to pay 1.000 baht for this and while we where arguing another farang was stopped in front of us and we saw the guy giving his drivers license ( to the same police ) with 500 baht underneath...so this matter was quickly cleared , and maybe thanks to this idiot we also got off with paying only 200 baht...no need to say , i did not get a receipt....
the point is here ..corruption in thailand is so deeply rooted it will never disappear as it is more a way of live here...
learn to live with it...but do not encourage it...as the 2 examples posted above...
i always have the exact amount to pay ...so no complaining about not getting your change , and i have also made a yellow tabien baan , witch i do not show immigration , and i use to renew my drivers license...and also very use full in case something happens to the wife ( dies) before you , will save you a lot hassle with the authorities....
and my thumbs up for brian , whom has had the courage to do what many farang are afraid to do...
complaining against official authorities...let us hope he will get his visa next year , because it is known in thailand even though they know they where wrong , they do not like to loose face here...let's hope he will not see any form off retribution when apply for visa extension next year.... TIT....
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mathusalah80
- udonmap.com
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Udon Thani Immigration Office
Being aware of how committed both Udonthani & Nognkhai based IOs' are to following very closely what is written about Thailand generally, and the IOs' in particular on this Forum, I also will be very interested to hear of any future 'interactions' between Brian and Richoc and the Immigration Office.
One good sign for you Brian is that you DIDN'T get arrested for so negligently allowing the mtorcyclist to damage your vehicle. The attending Officers obviusly didn't recognise you!!!
Bandung wrote: This debate has been done to death, time to move on!
I agree.....and that it couldn't finish on a better note than Brians incisive, pleasantly humorous and self deprecating.
post. A happy Songkran to one and all.
One good sign for you Brian is that you DIDN'T get arrested for so negligently allowing the mtorcyclist to damage your vehicle. The attending Officers obviusly didn't recognise you!!!
Bandung wrote: This debate has been done to death, time to move on!
I agree.....and that it couldn't finish on a better note than Brians incisive, pleasantly humorous and self deprecating.
post. A happy Songkran to one and all.
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welshwizard
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Udon Thani Immigration Office
Mathusalah80
my origins imply what ?
Bandung ,
Of course you get a warm welcome if you are on a retirement visa.Everybody on a retirement visa does as they are the people the thai government want to live here but i am not retired or my pension does not start for 3 years so my funds are limited. Perhaps you should try a few 90 day visa`s just to see what treatment you get. I can assure you it will not be warm and welcoming .If i did not pay her the money i get no visa.Do none of you people understand that immigration does not have to give you a reason but can just refuse .Then i have to leave my house and wife and leave thailand.This is a young girl who should show me respect and call me pee welshwizard the same as she would an educated thai man not steal from me.
Everytime i have gone for a visa i have gone to the office a few days before and asked what paperwork i needed and the guy writes them down for me then when i go there she asked for more.When i renewed my driving licence they would only give me 1 yr unless i gave them 500 baht then i got 5 yrs.Lots of times if you do not pay you do not get.
Corruption is sick in all societies but in uk it is not in my face every day as it is here and is mostly confined to business and politics and i think every country in the world is the same usa and china politics being the worst
My wife just done a teaching course for promotion took 3 months and we had not only to pay for the course but also when they came to test her pay for hotel and food .She was tested 4 times and even though she passed easily had to pay the testers or she would fail. Cost 130,000 baht + hotels and food.Pay rise 8,000 a month.When she went to get her certificate in the prajaktra hotel (4,000b) there were 700 teachers there and some paid a lot more than my wife
Her son went to join the army .Passed the tests but could not join as they wanted 30,000 to pass him
Her nephew just got a job in the local government office. Cost 100,000 baht salary 5,000 baht a month but a job for life.
Thai people never complain about corruption as they are born with it as part of their life and sometimes you have no choice but to pay no matter how high your morals are.
The village elections a guy came to my house to get my wife to vote for him . I said ask him if he will fix the holes in the road if he is elected.Reply, not polite to ask him that!Paid my wife 200 bahts and left. Nobody paid me in uk in all my life
If any of you think that your society is the same i would like to know where you live so i can avoid the place
ww
my origins imply what ?
Bandung ,
Of course you get a warm welcome if you are on a retirement visa.Everybody on a retirement visa does as they are the people the thai government want to live here but i am not retired or my pension does not start for 3 years so my funds are limited. Perhaps you should try a few 90 day visa`s just to see what treatment you get. I can assure you it will not be warm and welcoming .If i did not pay her the money i get no visa.Do none of you people understand that immigration does not have to give you a reason but can just refuse .Then i have to leave my house and wife and leave thailand.This is a young girl who should show me respect and call me pee welshwizard the same as she would an educated thai man not steal from me.
Everytime i have gone for a visa i have gone to the office a few days before and asked what paperwork i needed and the guy writes them down for me then when i go there she asked for more.When i renewed my driving licence they would only give me 1 yr unless i gave them 500 baht then i got 5 yrs.Lots of times if you do not pay you do not get.
Corruption is sick in all societies but in uk it is not in my face every day as it is here and is mostly confined to business and politics and i think every country in the world is the same usa and china politics being the worst
My wife just done a teaching course for promotion took 3 months and we had not only to pay for the course but also when they came to test her pay for hotel and food .She was tested 4 times and even though she passed easily had to pay the testers or she would fail. Cost 130,000 baht + hotels and food.Pay rise 8,000 a month.When she went to get her certificate in the prajaktra hotel (4,000b) there were 700 teachers there and some paid a lot more than my wife
Her son went to join the army .Passed the tests but could not join as they wanted 30,000 to pass him
Her nephew just got a job in the local government office. Cost 100,000 baht salary 5,000 baht a month but a job for life.
Thai people never complain about corruption as they are born with it as part of their life and sometimes you have no choice but to pay no matter how high your morals are.
The village elections a guy came to my house to get my wife to vote for him . I said ask him if he will fix the holes in the road if he is elected.Reply, not polite to ask him that!Paid my wife 200 bahts and left. Nobody paid me in uk in all my life
If any of you think that your society is the same i would like to know where you live so i can avoid the place
ww
Udon Thani Immigration Office
Having done to death the subject of corruption or shall we say money being paid for supposed services rendered, lket us not forget that to all intents and purposes, the officials in any Government agency here in Thailand do receive a wage ( whether it is good or not is open to debate) they also receive good health coverage for themselves and their families, their work ethic is not hard and they enjoy a status ( perceived or real ) which in some cases is almost god like.
There is no reason for their actions and it is to be discouraged at every opportunity, like many people I can and do get upset when it is expected I should pay ' tea money ' , Thais themselves are finding that the constant drip drip of funds being paid to Government agencies is getting out of hand. I personally know many Thais who object.
Whether that is the sgn of the times or that we are considered an easy mark I have no idea but we should all say enough is enough.
I worked for over 36 years in a Government agency, narry once did I receiver or accept a bribe, nor may I add did I ever pay one to anyone in the UK, Germany or even other countries I have lived in . Its culture is to be deplored and those who feel that they should pay , up to you but you will never change the attitude, while subscribing to the status quo.
I have a a few friends in Malaysia and they deplore it too, as one was intending to set up a business here, which he has switched to Indonesia, a less corrupt place than Thailand, now that says it all really he is Asian as is his whole family and they consider Thailand too corrupt. he appreciates that corruption is endemic in Asian countries, but that was because of the poor wages paid to many officials. Now the wages are reasonable but the culture persists which is unacceptable.
There is no reason for their actions and it is to be discouraged at every opportunity, like many people I can and do get upset when it is expected I should pay ' tea money ' , Thais themselves are finding that the constant drip drip of funds being paid to Government agencies is getting out of hand. I personally know many Thais who object.
Whether that is the sgn of the times or that we are considered an easy mark I have no idea but we should all say enough is enough.
I worked for over 36 years in a Government agency, narry once did I receiver or accept a bribe, nor may I add did I ever pay one to anyone in the UK, Germany or even other countries I have lived in . Its culture is to be deplored and those who feel that they should pay , up to you but you will never change the attitude, while subscribing to the status quo.
I have a a few friends in Malaysia and they deplore it too, as one was intending to set up a business here, which he has switched to Indonesia, a less corrupt place than Thailand, now that says it all really he is Asian as is his whole family and they consider Thailand too corrupt. he appreciates that corruption is endemic in Asian countries, but that was because of the poor wages paid to many officials. Now the wages are reasonable but the culture persists which is unacceptable.
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jackspratt
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Udon Thani Immigration Office
Good post KP - agree completely. =D>
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welshwizard
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Udon Thani Immigration Office
KP i too agree with most of what you say but i do not think this has been done to death simply for the last year it has got a lot worse. These officials used to ask for 2/3,000 baht now ask for 20/30,000 baht.I have lived here for nearly 5 years but have only paid any corruption money in the last 6 months.When my wife paid 150,000 baht+ to pass her exam and there were 700 teachers there over 4 days that is over 100,000,000 baht. Her friend who passed the same exam 5 years ago paid 20,000baht. How do you not pay it? They will just fail you and you will not get promoted.
I pay a guy in local office 3,00 baht a year to register my small internet cafe .Should cost nothing but he rings me when any inspectors are going to call. He rung me a few months ago and told me to shut for a couple of days as the copyright people were coming to check for downloaded songs or photo`s in my pc`s.I heard they went to Na kha the day before so i went to check . The first cafe a new aircon one they made him pay 70,000baht,the next one 30,000 baht.Next day they came to my house,1 old policeman and 5 guys in suits.I had wiped my hard drives so i knew there was nothing on them .I had my doors locked and asked them for some documents to show they had the authorit to check my pc`s .No , only id cards .
Asked them to show me the lists of copyrighted songs as not all songs have copyright and some songs i buy off the net so how would they know which songs were illegal.No lists .After 20 mins they just left and went to the next shop ,the woman owner just shut the door and would not let them in ,The third shop only 4 pc`s found some songs 30,000 baht.This is not tea money but serious money .I am not sure these guys were official just scaring people.If you arranged to pay them there and then they did not take your pc`s away and you did not have to go to the police to do the paperwork.
I see this thing a lot in my village and in the immigration and government offices but only this last year so maybe it is getting worse ?
ww
I pay a guy in local office 3,00 baht a year to register my small internet cafe .Should cost nothing but he rings me when any inspectors are going to call. He rung me a few months ago and told me to shut for a couple of days as the copyright people were coming to check for downloaded songs or photo`s in my pc`s.I heard they went to Na kha the day before so i went to check . The first cafe a new aircon one they made him pay 70,000baht,the next one 30,000 baht.Next day they came to my house,1 old policeman and 5 guys in suits.I had wiped my hard drives so i knew there was nothing on them .I had my doors locked and asked them for some documents to show they had the authorit to check my pc`s .No , only id cards .
Asked them to show me the lists of copyrighted songs as not all songs have copyright and some songs i buy off the net so how would they know which songs were illegal.No lists .After 20 mins they just left and went to the next shop ,the woman owner just shut the door and would not let them in ,The third shop only 4 pc`s found some songs 30,000 baht.This is not tea money but serious money .I am not sure these guys were official just scaring people.If you arranged to pay them there and then they did not take your pc`s away and you did not have to go to the police to do the paperwork.
I see this thing a lot in my village and in the immigration and government offices but only this last year so maybe it is getting worse ?
ww
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Bandung_Dero
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 3618
- Joined: July 10, 2005, 8:53 am
- Location: Ban Dung or Perth W.A.
Udon Thani Immigration Office
This has nothing to do with the Udon Immigration office. Open a new topic if you have another axe to grind! All I say is if you are operating within the law why do you need to be forewarned of a raid and do a panic HDD wipe?
I'll say it again:- Corruption at the Immigration office has been done to death.
I'll say it again:- Corruption at the Immigration office has been done to death.
Sent from my 1977 Apple II using 2 Heinz bake bean cans and piano wire!
Udon Thani Immigration Office
I can agree with everything you said up to the last paragraph but one.Khun Paul wrote:I have a a few friends in Malaysia and they deplore it too, as one was intending to set up a business here, which he has switched to Indonesia, a less corrupt place than Thailand, now that says it all really he is Asian as is his whole family and they consider Thailand too corrupt. he appreciates that corruption is endemic in Asian countries, but that was because of the poor wages paid to many officials. Now the wages are reasonable but the culture persists which is unacceptable.
However, mentioning Indonesia in this context is like praising Saudi Arabia for being a liberal country. Indonesia gets a 3 (on a scale of 1 to 10) on the Corruption Perceptions Rankings, whereas Thailand scores a tat better with 3.4.
And frankly, Malaysia isn't that squeeky clean itself with its 4.3
(http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/res ... tryResults)-
harmonyudon
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 1729
- Joined: December 2, 2010, 9:46 pm
- Location: Udon-Jakarta-Kupang-The Netherlands
Udon Thani Immigration Office
I dont want to promote corruption but how attempted would you be if your salary in your 36years was for example 7000-13000bht per month and you have 2-3 young children and a (pregnant)wife and somebody offers you 8x moreKhun Paul wrote:I worked for over 36 years in a Government agency, narry once did I receiver or accept a bribe, nor may I add did I ever pay one to anyone in the UK, Germany or even other countries I have lived in . Its culture is to be deplored and those who feel that they should pay , up to you but you will never change the attitude, while subscribing to the status quo.
for occasionally looking the other way.
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jackspratt
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 16156
- Joined: July 2, 2006, 5:29 pm
Udon Thani Immigration Office
The Perceptions Rankings are one indicator of corruption.Asiaphile wrote:I can agree with everything you said up to the last paragraph but one.Khun Paul wrote:I have a a few friends in Malaysia and they deplore it too, as one was intending to set up a business here, which he has switched to Indonesia, a less corrupt place than Thailand, now that says it all really he is Asian as is his whole family and they consider Thailand too corrupt. he appreciates that corruption is endemic in Asian countries, but that was because of the poor wages paid to many officials. Now the wages are reasonable but the culture persists which is unacceptable.
However, mentioning Indonesia in this context is like praising Saudi Arabia for being a liberal country. Indonesia gets a 3 (on a scale of 1 to 10) on the Corruption Perceptions Rankings, whereas Thailand scores a tat better with 3.4.
And frankly, Malaysia isn't that squeeky clean itself with its 4.3
I have a friend who has worked as a Customs Consultant (ie advising high level domestic, and international companies) on Customs issues in both Thailand and Indonesia.
His comment was that Thai Customs eat Indo Customs for breakfast when it comes to the sheer scale and audacity of corruption.
Udon Thani Immigration Office
I've been travelling to Indonesia very regularly over the past 15 years, speak and write basic Bahasa Indonesia, and have many friends there with whom I'm in (almost) daily contact through sms, messenger and e-mail, so I know that corruption is very, very, commonplace in Indonesia.jackspratt wrote:I have a friend who has worked as a Customs Consultant (ie advising high level domestic, and international companies) on Customs issues in both Thailand and Indonesia.
His comment was that Thai Customs eat Indo Customs for breakfast when it comes to the sheer scale and audacity of corruption.
But maybe your friend is right because your post reminded me of one of the many corruption jokes my friends are so fond of telling me. The joke goes as follows:
"There is bad and good corruption. Bad corruption is when you have to pay somebody to do something they are supposed to do in the first place. Good corruption is when you can pay somebody to allow you to do something you’re not supposed to do in the first place."
Judging from this definition even the Indonesians would frown upon Udon Immigration's practises and classify it as "BAD CORRUPTION."
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welshwizard
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 73
- Joined: May 16, 2011, 6:52 am
Udon Thani Immigration Office
You are correct little to do with udon imm office but has to do with government officials. Axe to grind ? i am a hard working farang to busy to grind axes and not retired with nothing to do .In my village there are 4 internet cafes ,mine being the first built and the only one with a licence and paying tax as all farangs do in thailand as we obey the law.Bandung_Dero wrote:This has nothing to do with the Udon Immigration office. Open a new topic if you have another axe to grind! All I say is if you are operating within the law why do you need to be forewarned of a raid and do a panic HDD wipe?
I'll say it again:- Corruption at the Immigration office has been done to death.
I was forwarned of the raid simply because the guy phoned me. Panic ! Not at all but for all your years and spare time you obviously know little about computers and even less about an internet cafe. I am continuously throwing teens out for trying to download music and have to keep stopping them plugging their mobiles in to listen to music as they have no idea what they are doing and sometimes send it to my pc. I check every week and find music files everywhere as they have no idea where they downloaded them to.I am always deleting music files but you cannot entirely delete a file and if any of these guys were experts they could find them . Should i pay a fine for music i did not download ?
When i install windows and all my programs i back up with acronis so i can wipe all my hard drives and reinstall a clean system in 40 minutes.
Corruption at imm office will be done to death when it stops.If somebody has to pay a bribe tomorrow who are you to say he should not post .If it has been done to death for you,do not read it.I will not write again on this topic unless i have to pay a bribe again then i will post again.
I think asiaphile has the correct word for it .Bad corruption
ww
Udon Thani Immigration Office
Ok I renew my annual next month, so going back to the topic. This one is going to be different since I now have a new passport.
So I'm thinking
2 photos
Both passports
Yellow Book
Embassy money letter.
Letter from my bank, showing monthly deposit's
Map to my house
Two copies of everything
1900 Baht for renewal and loose change for mess up's
So am I missing anything?
So I'm thinking
2 photos
Both passports
Yellow Book
Embassy money letter.
Letter from my bank, showing monthly deposit's
Map to my house
Two copies of everything
1900 Baht for renewal and loose change for mess up's
So am I missing anything?
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mathusalah80
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 1484
- Joined: November 4, 2011, 1:51 pm
- Location: Ex Perth, now Udonthani
Udon Thani Immigration Office
.
Irespective of the voracity or otherwise of the statements appearing here, and irrespective of the rights or wrongs of the situation here in Thailand, we are all guests in a foreign land. Naively perhaps, I believe that, while it is human to moan and complain a 'little' (while making sure this is done in a respectful way, and even with humour) perhaps naively, Ibelieve we have an obligation to ensure we do not go over the top to the extent that our hosts would find our criticisms rude and offensive. I think that stage has now been well reached in some of these posts.
Two points I think should be considered . Firstly,I am certain that the settled ex-pats conversing within this Forum ALL knew and understood, in general terms, the corruption based culture here, and made a considered decision to settle here AND apparently without any intention of leaving!! I suggest part of the knowledge all experienced ex-pats should possess is the unarguable fact that, neither individually nor otherwise, is there the slightest chance all this rhetoric here will result in the changes in the Thai culture, which you are all ,oh so passionately, seeking; and certainly not in our lifetimes.
Sadly, the only result I can see from publication of some of the extreme criticisms expressed here, and on other forums/media, is a hardening of attitude aginst us, as we seek the help we need from time to time, from the citizens of our host country. I respectfully suggest that, anyone who believes otherwise, has yet to arrive at any real understanding of Thai Cjulture.
Secondly, and for some obscure reason this comment is always guaranteed to raise the hackles of some of Thailands habitual and vehement critics, you are all entirely free to leave and find a better country in which to live - including returning to the country of your birth.
On this second point, a frequent response is along the lines of being 'I can't because now I have a family...etc....' My response to this is 'see point one'! You made the decision, so learn to live with what you now view as a mistaken decision. That is what we all have to do in our lives.
Like several other members, I think it is time for discretion and for the closing of this threaad. PLEASE.
Irespective of the voracity or otherwise of the statements appearing here, and irrespective of the rights or wrongs of the situation here in Thailand, we are all guests in a foreign land. Naively perhaps, I believe that, while it is human to moan and complain a 'little' (while making sure this is done in a respectful way, and even with humour) perhaps naively, Ibelieve we have an obligation to ensure we do not go over the top to the extent that our hosts would find our criticisms rude and offensive. I think that stage has now been well reached in some of these posts.
Two points I think should be considered . Firstly,I am certain that the settled ex-pats conversing within this Forum ALL knew and understood, in general terms, the corruption based culture here, and made a considered decision to settle here AND apparently without any intention of leaving!! I suggest part of the knowledge all experienced ex-pats should possess is the unarguable fact that, neither individually nor otherwise, is there the slightest chance all this rhetoric here will result in the changes in the Thai culture, which you are all ,oh so passionately, seeking; and certainly not in our lifetimes.
Sadly, the only result I can see from publication of some of the extreme criticisms expressed here, and on other forums/media, is a hardening of attitude aginst us, as we seek the help we need from time to time, from the citizens of our host country. I respectfully suggest that, anyone who believes otherwise, has yet to arrive at any real understanding of Thai Cjulture.
Secondly, and for some obscure reason this comment is always guaranteed to raise the hackles of some of Thailands habitual and vehement critics, you are all entirely free to leave and find a better country in which to live - including returning to the country of your birth.
On this second point, a frequent response is along the lines of being 'I can't because now I have a family...etc....' My response to this is 'see point one'! You made the decision, so learn to live with what you now view as a mistaken decision. That is what we all have to do in our lives.
Like several other members, I think it is time for discretion and for the closing of this threaad. PLEASE.
Udon Thani Immigration Office
I'm assuming retirement...bumper wrote:Ok I renew my annual next month, so going back to the topic. This one is going to be different since I now have a new passport.
So I'm thinking
2 photos
Both passports
Yellow Book
Embassy money letter.
Letter from my bank, showing monthly deposit's
Map to my house
Two copies of everything
1900 Baht for renewal and loose change for mess up's
So am I missing anything?
Did mine in Nov/11, only one photo required, bank letter and savings passbook weren't requested and I didn't offer (had copies of saving passbook on me just in case). Apparently, embassy income letter was sufficient.