Thai Immigration Tightens Retirement Visa Extensions

Post by **jackspratt** » June 6, 2011, 10:05 pm

Taken from ThaiVisa, so I have no idea as to the accuracy.

In a nutshell, people claiming a retirement extension based on 65k/month income will be required to provide evidence of 2 months income to Thai Immigration ie the Embassy letter/declaration may no longer be enough.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/473 ... xtensions/

Post by **pompui** » June 7, 2011, 2:42 am

Did not realise that Australia was one of the 3 countries (USA and Canada) that you could get away with just a declaration of your income without supporting evidence.Will there be a rush to change from retirement to Marriage Visas

Post by **pompui** » June 7, 2011, 4:21 am

Having thought about this more,albeit with my beergoggles on

,it should not affect too many. Am sure people would not be bullshitting about their pension income being conveniently 800k,the minimum for the Retirement Visa.

For the few though,I presume still loads of Visas that have loopholes and limited income documentational supporting evidence that could be used but not in the spirit of what they are there for.Maybe an option to apply for an Educational Visa even though you do not want to learn the lingo or attend many lessions,should give you breathing space for a year.Keep reapplying yearly saying you need more time to learn the lingo.Maybe start applying for the Multiple entry Visa geared for visiting purposes but use it to live here and keep annually renewing that for eternity.Start looking at Triple entry Tourist Visas as an option,pretend to be a tourist when in fact you want it to live here on an ongoing basis.

All the best

Post by **tutone** » June 7, 2011, 10:14 am

Hopefully, we will get some feedback in the coming weeks, months, from folks who are renewing their retirement extensions at Udon immigration. Am curious to see if anything will actually change. I know that when I renewed in May, I was asked for bank account info in addition to income statement from my embassy. Don't know if this was because of new rules or just part of the various inconsistencies that one sees here when dealing with Thai institutions.

Post by **jimboLV** » June 7, 2011, 10:29 am

My suspicious mind wonders if this is in preparation for the other shoe to drop -- raising the income requirement. It's been a long time since it was raised. Although I don't see the logic in raising it, after all, 65,000 baht per month is much more than most Thai earn. If they did raise it a lot of expats would be deficient, thus more inclined to falsify their income, thus the desire to require proof. This must have been in the works for some time now. When I got my extension last November the guy asked to see my bank book, even though I had the embassy letter. I told him I didn't have it with me, I would have to go back home to get it and he said never mind.

It would be nice to hear exactly what Immigration has in mind.

Post by **douglas** » June 7, 2011, 11:48 am

Hi,
For the last three years i have been getting a letter from the British Emb. for my Visas. The first two were for retirment visas. The B.E. requires proof of your income. I get two pensions so they accepted these, and give me a letter stating my pensions. They do not quote them in Bhat, just G.B.P.'s. One time the lady at Imm. asked me what the exchange rate was. When exchange rate crashed to 45B, i was just under 40,000B short of 800KB per year. Imm told me put 40K in a Thai bank and come back tomorrow. I said no, i don't have a thai bank account, and that i wanted a marriage visa, which requires 40KB income a month, 480K p.a.. He said O.K. and went that way. The M.V. way changed last year so that instead of getting a letter from B.E. every three years you are now required to get one every 12 months. TIT.
Have to do my 90 day report tomorrow morning, so will ask them about any changes, as my 12 months is up in Oct..
By the way when getting my M.V. i showed Imm. the income tax forms i got from my goverment quoting my pensions. They would not accept these and wanted a letter from my Embassy. For the house location, they accepted a google map printout. Took two, one of the street i lived in and the other including the surronding area.
I know we all call these marriage or retirement visas. But they are not visas. They are permission to stay stamps. A visa cannot be got in LOS for LOS. Must be obtained in a coutry outside of LOS.

Post by **Bandung_Dero** » June 7, 2011, 11:50 am

jimboLV wrote:------------It would be nice to hear exactly what Immigration has in mind.

I can see several ways they can and probably will do to jerk us around into the future:

Up the rate to 1 Million Baht or part there of plus pension.
Not only show proof of income but make us deposit it into a Thai bank account monthly then tax it.
Take out compulsory health insurance.
Scrub the 400K Baht Marriage Extension.
Scrub the ‘OA’ visa issued from our own countries.
Make the hoops smaller and more of them.
Change the ever moving goal posts from the Rugby League type to the Soccer type with net so there is no way out.

Care to add any?

Post by **Khun Paul** » June 7, 2011, 3:25 pm

As I understood the Immigration tightening it was to ensure that the Embassy actually had proof of your income, which in the case of us Bri6s is statutory as we have to propvide proof of income via a pension before they even supply a letter. it will affect those countries who seem to trust their citizens ( big mistake ) ie the States Australia and possibly Canada, other countries I am unaware of but the UK you have to prove it before you get a letter.

Post by **Sateev** » June 7, 2011, 3:32 pm

Bandung_Dero wrote:
jimboLV wrote:------------It would be nice to hear exactly what Immigration has in mind.
I can see several ways they can and probably will do to jerk us around into the future:

Up the rate to 1 Million Baht or part there of plus pension.
Not only show proof of income but make us deposit it into a Thai bank account monthly then tax it.
Take out compulsory health insurance.
Scrub the 400K Baht Marriage Extension.
Scrub the ‘OA’ visa issued from our own countries.
Make the hoops smaller and more of them.
Change the ever moving goal posts from the Rugby League type to the Soccer type with net so there is no way out.

Care to add any?

Nah, it's deep enough already...

I don't think there is any conspiracy afoot to "jerk us around", especially since this new wrinkle apparently came from above. Immigration has been aware for some time that US/Canadian/Ozzians can (and do) commit perjury in front of their consular officers, in order to appear to meet the income standard for an extension of stay. Naturally, they are looking to tighten up procedures. Fair enough.

Where the true annoyance lies, at least for me, is the 'discretion' allowed the Immigration officer, and in many cases, their lack of knowledge of the laws.

I am here on a real Non-Immigrant O-A visa, which entitles my wife to a Permit to Stay, to match the period of my visa. When I took her to BKK, the officer was adamant that I had to apply for a Permit to Stay stamp, and only THEN could my wife get her stamp. I finally persuaded her (by letting her know that I knew the law, and that I would file an appeal and request a decision in writing) to check with her boss, and shazaam, five minutes later, my wife got her stamp. The officer was actually quite a nice person, and willing to admit she never saw that particular circumstance before.

Contrast that with some of the geniuses at, say Nong Khai, and you can appreciate the possibilities. And sure enough, when there on another matter (my house book), one of the more vocal female officers started looking through my passport, and decided the same thing: I needed to apply for a permit to stay. Never mind that I have a multiple entry O-A visa, she was SURE that I was there illegally, and pleased as punch that (she thought) Bangkok had made a mistake. Luckily, the more senior guy straightened her out, although she was none too pleased.

All of this has made Thailand a lot less enjoyable than it was before.

The real problem is the ambiguity, and lack of a concrete reference, applied evenly at all Immigration offices. Little people, with a little power, will use it - to everyone's dismay.

Feh.

Post by **arjay** » June 7, 2011, 3:52 pm

When I used to take the 65K a per month income "route" to extend my (retirement type) visa, (as well as the Embassy letter) they always asked for evidence of my bank account here showing funds coming into my account here (from overseas) along with a letter from my bank. It didn't matter how much was in the account, nor how much was being transferred into it. I presumed they just wanted to check that I was bringing in funds from overseas. Isn't that the situation referred to in the OP? I don't interpret it as any tightening up, just them applying their normal routine checks.

Or, perhaps they actually mean they are asking for sight of the most recent 2 recent pension slips or similar. Quote from the TV post:

the Immigration Bureau has asked to see proof of at least two months of pension income.

I suppose ultimately it all comes down to the fact that they are entitled to ask for whatever additional information or verification they feel appropriate.

I currently use the lump sum "route", so I don't need to bother with the Embassy letter, - just the bank account & bank letter.

Post by **bumper** » June 7, 2011, 5:54 pm

Remember guys each office does things differently, hey they want be glad to give then the check stubs

Post by **sissor-mouth** » June 8, 2011, 2:06 am

Yeah move problems for the Thai visa mind field moving goal posts every corner of the pitch and no set standard requirements at any given Immigration office. Have to say it folks I've seen it coming for a while at the end of the day the Thai's are patriotic people and with all due respect do you blame them for upping the ante to whom they consider financially viable to stay within "their" kingdom . I know it's hard in these hard economic times but hang in there and keep seeking them visa loop holes .

Post by **Sateev** » June 8, 2011, 9:14 am

sissor-mouth wrote:Yeah move problems for the Thai visa mind field moving goal posts every corner of the pitch and no set standard requirements at any given Immigration office. Have to say it folks I've seen it coming for a while at the end of the day the Thai's are patriotic people and with all due respect do you blame them for upping the ante to whom they consider financially viable to stay within "their" kingdom . I know it's hard in these hard economic times but hang in there and keep seeking them visa loop holes .

Interesting that you would say that Thais are patriotic. Maybe you meant 'nationalistic', or even 'xenophobic'.

Americans used to be patriotic, and immigrants came in droves. Of course there were problems, but I think the US became a stronger country because of it. We weren't particularly nationalistic, at least officially, and certainly not officially xenophobic.

Now, when in major decline, the US is seething with xenophobia, and calls for immigration 'reform'.

Wonder if Thailand, despite attempting to put on a successful face, is feeling the inevitable decline, and resorting to nationalism and xenophobia to relieve the pressure?

Nah...

Post by **Jing Jing** » June 8, 2011, 7:33 pm

This is more the case of the Thai Immigration not being able to think out of the box. The U.S. embassy can not and should not supply verification of income because that is not their job. All they are certifying right now is that it is you and you have some documents. The Thais can not figure out how to get what they want. For U.S. passport holders a certified letter from the U.S Social Security Administration to Thai Immigration plus a certified letter from the retirement fund administrator to Thai Immigration should be all that is required. Yeah, there are some other twist on this for those who have a private pension fund. Again they are into financial issues which they don't want to admit that they don't understand.

Post by **jackspratt** » June 8, 2011, 8:53 pm

I guess the question needs to be asked - are US pension recipients the only retirees that Thai Immigration needs to deal with?

If not, what could be the rationale for setting their (Thai Immigration) policy solely around what can be provided by the above.

Or should they have a different set of rules for each country, and the documents they can provide?

Would the US Immigration accept, without question (on a reciprocal basis) the statements issued by the Thai Embassy in Washington, or documents from the Thai government agency the equivalent of US Social Security?

A whiff of hubris, perhaps?

Post by **jingjai** » June 9, 2011, 3:05 pm

jackspratt wrote: Would the US Immigration accept, without question (on a reciprocal basis) the statements issued by the Thai Embassy in Washington, or documents from the Thai government agency the equivalent of US Social Security?

In a way U.S. Immigration already does that.
Let's take for example, a Thai girl applying for an immigrant visa to the U.S., based on the fact she is married to an American citizen.
She has to provide a document from the Royal Thai Police saying she has no criminal record. U.S. Immigration accepts that without question.
She also has to provide a health clearance from a Thai hospital saying she is free of infectious, communicable disease, including Tuberculosis, and HIV. U.S Immigration accepts that without question.

Back on topic. I renewed my retirement extension today. I produced my letter from my Embassy. I attempted to give them my Thai bank details...they didn't want it. I asked if they wanted to see financial documents from the U.S...they weren't interested in seeing them. I guess they figured I came well prepared since they saw my attache case was filled with about a kilo worth of papers.
Bottom line...I got my extension.

On another bottom line...ThaiVisa is full of BS. It sends out these "BREAKING NEWS" e-mail alerts which 98% of the time turn out not to be true. TV has sunk to resorting to tabloid/sensationalism yellow journalism tactics, IMO. I've unsubscribed to their e-mail alerts.
Let's hope UdonMap never sinks to that level.

Post by **Khun Paul** » June 9, 2011, 5:01 pm

Going on from what Jngjai states, yes it is true that oft times in the past Thai Visa speaks with forked tongue, however it was interesting to note that on the initial post it mentioned certain countries, now if it is accpeted that those countries do issue a letter stating income based purely on the written word of the applicant with no other papers to back up the amount then you would be on shaky ground, if as in the British case the application must be backed up with a document provided by your pension provider or Govt Agency which goes towards substantiating your request.

I am sure that in reality those who have the necessary will be okay, again those that try to circumnavigate the regulations by fair means or foul could have a problem.

Post by **kopkei** » June 9, 2011, 5:07 pm

i must agree with JJ, i stopped reading thaivisa long time ago , perhaps some times there information is accurate but mostly ....., i want to sleep well, best information you can get is at your local immigration office , there alone will all ready be many differences according to the location...

Post by **Sateev** » June 9, 2011, 6:14 pm

Thaivisa is a money machine for George, and doesn't pretend to be the BBC. It is sensationalistic, but no more so than its ilk in Pattaya and Phuket. And while I don't care for their policies, particularly their moderators, they DO have knowledgeable people who post regularly.

While there's no substitute for getting your info direct from Immigration, not many posters have the Thai language skills to do so.

Sometimes you have to dig in the dirt to find a pearl. Or something ...

With their readership, chances are someone has encountered a situation similar to yours, and may even relate it to you...use the tools at hand.

Post by **Tafia** » June 9, 2011, 7:17 pm

I agree with whats been said about most of TV although there are reliable and informative people who do post regularly.
That said I had read some months back of an american expats visit to Immigration, produced his embassy letter and was asked for further proof to support the amount claimed in the letter. He didn't have any and was told that they would let it pass this time but be prepared that in the future proof would be required.
I believe this is all the poster is really saying and that this is the only change -
Be prepared to prove what your Embassy letter says.
(no doubt some have been caught out claiming they receive more than they do)
As you know the British Embassy will not issue a letter unless you provide documentary evidence and they stipulate this in their letter, in my case my annual pension statement.

But until we hear from expats who have been asked and had to produce further evidence it is just speculation.